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Hello,
To those who've spawned this fish, do you allow the eggs to hatch with the parents or do you pull the eggs prematurely and hatch them artificially? My fish has been holding a plaque of eggs for about a week and I notice the other tank mates (5 other apithanos) are disturbing the brooding fish. I've had experience breeding other lip brooders and I've never had problems with allowing the eggs hatch naturally, but watching this brooding apithanos get bullied around the tank is disconcerting.

one more question, its the male tat holds the eggs in this species, correct?

I usually remove the fry to a nursery around the point they hatch. What size tank do you have (dimensions)? I have four in 36"x12" and they are a little cramped. I had to add a lot of dividers in the sand to stop them getting in each others line of sight. I have one male and three females (of the very similar P. sp. marbled). The male sits on eggs most of the time.

Jools

the tank is a 30 breeder (30"l x18w" x 12"h) and I am keeping 6 of them in there. Two are about 5" (the breeding pair) and the other 4 fish are about 3.5" The tank is decorated with arching pieces of driftwood covered with Bolbitis, and there is a group of Micropoecilia picta and some poeciliocharax weitzmanni to keep the water column interesting.

I agree this tank is too small (they're in quarantine right now) and I plan on moving them, and another group into a larger setup soon. How large a tank would a group of 10 fish need?

I've been researching these fish for several years and I finally got the opportunity to work with them. The thing is that practically all the information on them refers to the closely related P. sp marbled. I don't mean to refute this, but how do we really know? Where are the husbandry and breeding accounts of apithanos?

They're very close to P. sp. marbled which is why I joined in. I am keeping four (1male, 3 females) in a 36x12, however I do plan to move them up a bit as it is only the criss crossed smaller pieces of wood that delimits their territories.

There is a breeding account of P. apithanos in the Seidel/Evers catfish atlas - I am not aware of one in the English language and would certainly like to publish one (hint hint).

Jools

Hi Jools,
Thanks for chiming in on this, and I hope you didn't take offense to what I said. I'm just curious to know exactly how similar these two different species really are.

Breaking up the landscape in the tank with "walls" of driftwood does certainly help, and it seems to have given the brooding fish some peace and quiet. As far as the eggs go, they are looking good... much larger than I expected. Compared to Loricaria sp. Atabapo, they are almost twice as large. I think they have a week more to go til hatching.

here's a really bad picture I took the night I discovered the eggs.

zipper wrote:Hi Jools,
Thanks for chiming in on this, and I hope you didn't take offense to what I said. I'm just curious to know exactly how similar these two different species really are.

No offence taken at all, I've seen several colonies of P. apithanos (no breeding) and they just do exactly the same things as my marbled species. The fry are even more similar than the parents.

Jools

Do you have any details of the water parameters, etc. I have had my group of 4 for 2 years now and no spawning yet. Mine are 5 to 6 inches.

Its been years since I've tested water chemistry so I have no real clue. Im just using straight tap water and doing 35-40% wc every other week. If I had to guess, the ph is around 7.5. Temperature hovers in the mid to high 70s. I've been feeding them mostly New Life Spectrum, and occasionally throw in some Dainichi veggie FX. (this is the primary food for my Sturisomas) I also feed them frozen bloodworms and live tubifex once a week.

My fish are about the same size and I've had them for only a couple months. got super lucky on these guys.

Kenneth, how are yours in regards to territories and aggression? can you describe your set up?

Mine are in a 40breeder, 36X18X16 inches. There are some aggression but not to much. The tank is sand bottom with a few pieces of driftwood sticks. They live with a small breeding group of L129 and some cardinals. Temp is around 80f and pH is around 7.0 to 7.5. Water changes once a week 30% with treated tapwater. Don't know the numbers of males or females in the group.

Kenneth,
How is the coloring on your fish? My friend and I brought these fish in together and by looking really hard and long at them, we determined that the color of the center stripe on the head signified sex. We assumed the ones with the brown stripe were males and the black striped ones were female. The color of these stripes never really changed so we divided the group accordingly. The fact that the black striped one is holding the eggs leads me to think we really don't know what we're talking about!
Do you have a picture of your fish?

It's been 2 weeks since the eggs were laid, I'm going to remove them and put them in a breeder net now.

Well, I stole the eggs from the brooding fish and needless to say, it was quite stressful. With my Loricarias, I would simply grab the fish by the tail, gently lift the fish of the bottom of the tank, and with my free hand grab the eggs, and gently tug until he let go. P. apithanos does not give in so easily. If they spawn again, I will need to try something different. I did get the eggs though and since my LFS ran out of breeder nets, I put the eggs in a plastic shoebox. One day later, here they are:

At this size, they are indistinguishable from P. sp. marbled. This too has been my experience with removing the eggs (although I do suggest this to maximum the number of survivors) and find that even at this size they will eat crushed tetra prima.

Jools

Excellent work.

These are, by reputation, a more difficult pseudohemiodon spp to spawn. I look forward to future updates. What's the conductivity there?

Jools,
The male took off and slammed into the tank wall, then dug himself into the sand when I attempted to grab him. It wasn't until I pulled him out of the sand, did he thrash and let go of the eggs. I'll try a net or a fish bag next time.

Tetra Prima=Tetra Bits (in the US) correct?

Jon,
Thanks! I'm thinking I just got lucky. They arrived in great shape and I've only had them a short time. As far as conductivity, I have no idea. I gave up testing for these things years ago, but for the sake of documentation, I'll go check.

zipper wrote:Tetra Prima=Tetra Bits (in the US) correct?

Correct.

Jools

hi zipper,
from now on they need fresh water no sand ground yet but a lot of food to gain bodymass...

i made a tab-mix with plancton, cyclopeeze, and many more all put in a coffee grinder, this gives you a very fine powdered food that fits perfect into their mouth!

another good food would be fresh hatched brine shrimps (artemia salina) just wash them under hot water, so they wond swim anymore and also these are a very good filling food for any catfish fry!

the number of fry is stunning! good luck

farid

Hi Zipper,

No pictures of my group. They spend most of their time buried in the sand. Will get some pics during feeding.

Congrats on the fry. I can only hope that mine will do the same some day.

Since I last posted, I've separated the spawn into two groups of 12 fish. Each group is being kept in a plastic shoebox. with approximately one gallon of water. I'm changing about 75 % of the water every day. The fish are being fed crushed New Life Spectrum Growth granules and Tetra color bits. The fish are eating (I vacuum up their feces every morning) and it looks as though they have grown a bit. This morning I found 2 dead in one of the containers. Perhaps I am feeding them too much?

They can each too much, especially prima, yes. I counter this by keeping cherry shrimp with them and they get some of the food and moreover stop the fish eating for hours on end. Normally that would be a good thing, but not with these foods I think.

Are you filtering or otherwise aerating the shoeboxes?

Jools

I'm just aerating the shoeboxes, keeping in mind not to put too much current and turbulence. I've also cut back on the Prima and have gone back to a bigger percentage of New Life Spectrum. It seems to go through the fish easier and doesn't rot as fast.

I'll be likely moving these little guys to a bigger container this weekend. They've definitely grown!

Update: The fry are over an inch now. I've lost over half of them due to neglect. These will make you pay if you miss a water change. Anone wanna comment on how large these are supposed to be at about 10 weeks?

The good thing is that I have another batch that hatched a week ago. There were 19 eggs and 2 did not hatch.