PlanetCatfish.com

Sorry if I have this in the wrong section. Wasn't 100% sure where it went.

Looking to one day own a colony/school of Sorubim Limas at some point, preferably in a species only tank or maybe 1 or 2 other single fish. Just wondering for future reference, what would be a recommended gallons per Lima?

Thanks in advance.

My recommendation would be to simply go as big as you can. You could certainly keep 4-5 in a 150 gallon tank if it was properly set up and well maintained.
-Shane

I think they would appreciate some long branches of wood, too.
Maybe keep a small school of Red Hook Myleus.

put the wood up against sides and back of the tank or hang it, so you get the effect of dangling roots. lima's like to hover near or behind verical and diagonal pieces of wood.

any fish that isn't aggressive and not a food particle is suitable.

you could go for another species of catfish, and strict bottomdwellers are a good choice, since those will not compete with the lima for hiding place.

of course, then you need to make some low hiding places as well.

mediumsized doradids are perfect (Orinocodoras, Acanthodoras etc), large callichthyids (adult Hoplosternum littorale for example), or the more peaceful Loricariids. fish like Pseudohemiodon or Sturisoma.


if you like Characins, highbuilt ones are the way to go. Red Hooks are suggested, wich are fine; the slightly smaller Metynnis are also fine
however if you like a planted tank, then fish like Triportheus are more suitable. Myleus and Metynnis eat all plantlife.

there are even some cichlids suitable. a shoal of Geophagus will do just finne with the lima's and then the tank is a bit more lively (and colorful!0 during the day.

a big tank with a combination of lima's, geophagus, Orinocodoras, Sturisoma and triportheus might look absolutely stunning ;)

My ideas so far include a 500 gallon long tank (yes, I like things big =P) with the faux-tree-roots idea and tall, grass-like in appearance plants densely on both ends. I'd prefer the main viewing spot (dead centre at the front, and at the sides extending to the forest of plants) relatively open with just a few large rocks, perhaps.

So, then, a few questions if you wouldn't mind. =]

1) What would you recommend putting in there?
A decent number of Sorubim Limas are a must, as they're the whole reason for wanting this big tank. I'd like to also point out that with the plants on both ends any species that'll destroy them is out. I don't mind species who will dig up plants occasionally, though. There are ways around this, and I can always just pop them back into the substrate. I also prefer the look of naturally colored (greys, blacks, browns, dull yellow, etc) fish to bright colored ones. I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 brightly colored ones, though. I just don't want an entire school of them.

2) Are there any other cats large enough to not get eaten, but small enough or docile enough to not bother the Sorubims? I would only want one or a pair. A pl*co species for example, maybe?

3) Substrate!... what would I use? lol.

4) What are your thoughts on having a single Giant Gourami (forgot the scientific name, don't shoot me =P) in there? I've always wanted to try that species, and with planning this tank I figure I might as well ask - can't do any harm.
I think that's all the questions I have for now... I can always come back later and ask more, afterall!

I'll dip in here and try to answer some of your questions.

Void wrote:Are there any other cats large enough to not get eaten, but small enough or docile enough to not bother the Sorubims? I would only want one or a pair. A pl*co species for example, maybe?

As sid says above - Hoplosternum are a good choice, and won't compete for food, plus not aggressive. Also, again, as suggested above, Pseudohemiodon or Sturisoma would be ideal. If you can get adults of either, they should be relatively easy to sex.

Void wrote:Substrate!... what would I use?

Sand! You can buy aqaurium sand from your LFS, I've used swimming pool filtering sand with no problems, and you can even use kid's play sand. You can add areas of rounded stones/cobbles to break up the sand, but if you go with fish like the hoplos and/or Pseudohemiodon, then i'd sand sand is a definite must.

Void wrote:What are your thoughts on having a single Giant Gourami (forgot the scientific name, don't shoot me =P) in there? I've always wanted to try that species, and with planning this tank I figure I might as well ask - can't do any harm.

I'm assuming you know the potential size of this fish (Osphronemus goramy), but that would not be my reason for saying no. Now, it depends on how specific you want to be about keeping fish from the same continent/conditions - as am sure you know the fish suggested so far all come from South america, whereas the Gourami is from Asia. Also, it just wouldn't be right to mix such a large fish into a tank designed for Sorubim lima that need to be kept in subdued surroundings with peaceful species.
I'm sure there are plenty of choices for other inhabitants, but the ones suggested so far are all ideal candidates, so you may want to revisit the choices listed so far and decide which of those you don't like.
HTH
Martin

Sand, eh? Ooh, goody. I love using sand in my aquariums! =D

Thanks for the opinion on the gourami. I knew it wouldn’t be the most idealistic tankmate, but was curious anyways. Ah well. I can be patient. This gives me an excuse to set up a second big tank anyways! Lol.

Took a look at some of those species mentioned above (thanks Sid!) and narrowed it out into what ones I like the look of.
Orinocodoras, Pseudohemiodon, Triportheus all look decent.
I am willing to look into a shoal of the Geophagus species, as they don’t seem horribly bright.

Don’t suppose anyone could offer a recommendation of what numbers of which species to keep? I’d hate to get this all set up, then find out when everyone grows up that I’ve overstocked the tank.

And would I need to let everyone else grow up before adding the Sorubims, just to make sure no one gets eaten?

Also; With the Geophagus are males too aggressive?

Void wrote:Also; With the Geophagus are males too aggressive?

As a general rule, not very. There are about two dozen Gophaginae species in a handful different genera. For cichlids, they are definitely all friendly. Since you are planning on a large tank, you can probably go for just about any species. They can be a bit difficult to identify.

--
Mats

This is just an idea for stocking;
6 Sorubim
10 Orinoco
2 Pseudohemiodon laticeps
6 Geophagus Altifrons

Am I overstocked? Understocked? Is there enough space for that many bottom-dwellers?
I think I'm understocked, but, I've never kept ANY of these fish before, so really wouldn't know.

I'm going to another forum to find another mid or top dweller right now, so those numbers could be subject to change.

Thanks so much for all the help, everyone.

10 Orinoco

Do you mean Orinocodoras ?? That is a large group of hungry Doradids

2 Pseudohemiodon laticeps

These may have a hard time competing in such a group IMO

Birger

Thanks for the opinion Birger. I'll re-evaluate the numbers when I get feedback from the cichlid person I went to.

And don't forget, the limas aren't truly bottom feeders in the usual catfish sense.
I'm not sure if you've done any research re: obtaining the suggested fish, but you may need to ask your LFS if they can get these fish before going any further - fish like aren't your usual LFS stock. I'm not being negative, as it sounds like it's going to be a fantastich setup, it would just be a shame to not get, say the Orinocodoras, and maybe have a stand-by selection, say or which should be somewhat easier to come by.
Be keen to see this tank progress
HTH
Martin

I agree with both Birger and Martin: Orinocodoras is most often found as a "bycatch" of the more common types of it's close relative - meaning, there are, on very rare occasions, one or a few Orinocodoras in a shipment of P. armatulus.

Geophagus altifrons looks like a nice fish. They look similar to the ones I've bought as G. surinamensis.

--
Mats

lol, yeah, I know the Orinocodoras is a longshot. Still in the research stage, so, plenty of time to find a back-up. =]

I wouldn't be too dissapointed if it proved completely impossible to find, though. As I said before, my main desire for this tank is the Sorubims. None of my other dream fish are compatible with them, so this entire stock list is more of just filler to make this tank look like more than a few hiding vertical fish in the background. =P

Could someone help me research the Altifrons c*****d, though? I have actually seen these in stores (or at least that's what the label said) but I can't find consistancy on their size. Some sites claimed 6 inches, others a whole foot w/ males larger.

As far as I can tell, though, they're only aggressive to other males and c*****d species, which would be fine as I only want one c*****d species.

Well, the real "bible" for Geophaginae fish is Thomas Weidners "Southamerican Eartheaters".
With a 500g tank, I doubt a 30cm (1ft) fish would really be a problem. As a general rule, eartheaters grow to about 20-30cm, with a few species growing to about 35cm, and at least one known to stay around 15cm.

Unfortunately young fish that is often found in the shops, it's can be difficult to identify the different variants of eartheaters, as their colours develop quite a bit when they mature.

Compare this:

and this:


They are the same species (possibly the same individual, but not certain). The first one is about 6cm TL, the second is about 20cm TL.

--
Mats

Geophagus altifrons grows (males) to 30 cm, and as they need to be kept in a group, I can not see any tankshape containing 500 l large enough

I would think of 200 * 60 * 60 as the mallest tank for them, containing 720 L

However, there is a species G sp cf altifrons - a not described species- which only grows to 20 cm (males just as G surinamensis does

The differences?

If the fish you bought at 2 inches starts reducing the lateral spot at 3 inches it is an G altifrons
if it does not, and while breeding it takes in the eggs, it is G sp cf altifrons
if it does not, and takes the larvae, it is G surinamensis

However, many more Geophagus would fit in a 150 cm / 5 feet tank, but keep them with 5 or more

BAS
FYI the OP stated 500 gallons, not litres, so guess he should be OK as that's over 2000 litres (I make it 2265)?
Martin

As an another cichlid option, what about Geophagus steindachneri? Always been my favourite Geo, not seen any for years, but seemingly available from time to time.
Adult size, in captivity, is listed as about 14cm, so 5-6", although i don't know their temperament.
Martin

Martin S wrote:BAS
FYI the OP stated 500 gallons, not litres, so guess he should be OK as that's over 2000 litres (I make it 2265)?
Martin

That would most certainly fit for altifrons.

In fact, this is a size in which a school of 10 G altifrons AND a similar school of satanoperce juruparu (or leucosticta, the differences are to small to tell which are which, and to much definitions to separate the species excist) would fit nicely

Martin S wrote:BAS
FYI the OP stated 500 gallons, not litres, so guess he should be OK as that's over 2000 litres (I make it 2265)?
Martin

In Canada, it's quite possible that the tank-size is a US 500g tank, rather than an imperial 500g tank, which would make it just short of 1900 liter. Canada DOES use imperial gallons officially, but I suspect a US-made tank is advertised in it's US volume.

--
Mats

My advice would be to carefully check out the geophagus family.
Some, like the Brasiliensis types, are bruisers.
The Surinamensis types (there are several) also vary in temperament.
From my own experience, I would recommend any of the satanoperca types. S Jurupari and S leucosticta are peaceful, shoaling, subtle beauties, and not too sensitive. Other satanoperca are more nitrate-sensitive. They like warm water, 80 - 82deg and well oxygenated.

Richard.

Hehe, looks like I'll have to clear up the actual tank size as well.

The tank is going to be a custom build -> 96''L 36"H 36''W
Which is about 540 US Gallons and just over 2000 Litres if my calculations are correct.
But yes, US made tanks are advertised in US gallons in Canada.
(By the way, anyone here know what thickness of glass I should request the maker use?)

If I decide to go with the Altifrons (or whatever available large Geophagus at the time) I'm thinking of buying eight, then weeding out and rehoming the males as they grow. Do you think this will work?

I'm thinking of Hoplosternum littorale as a back-up plan for the Orinocodoras. What do you guys think?
I honestly thought they were ugly the first time I saw them, but after watching a few videos they actually look cute now. =P What they lack in looks they make up for in personality, it seems.

I know it depends on the size of the fish at the time of purchase, too, but is there any species I should let grow up a bit first before adding the Sorubims? If I managed to get them all as juveniles what are the chances of them growing up without eating each other?

So then, what do you guys think of this stocking plan? Am I overstocked? Understocked?

Sorubim Lima: As many as I can get as juveniles at the same time, but not exceeding 6.
Altifrons (or other peaceful Geophagus): 8, to be cut down to 6 or fewer depending on # of males (or in the unlikely absence of any males, the top six female specimens.)
Orinoco OR Hoplo: 10
Pseudohemiodon laticeps: 1 or 2. (I still want to try this species. If I decide to try it I will line up a suitable home for it before I buy it, ensuring that if it/they can truly not compete for food I can just rehome them.)

Doing the math, assuming it's "exactly" the measure in inches, it's an "external volume of 2038 liter" (that's including the glass itself), with an actual volume brim full and not taking any off for any stress bars or other tank production details: 1939 liter (assuming 12mm glass - base may actually be a tad thicker, I'd say). But yeah, 2000 liter, give or take a few percent.

Any hoplosternum would be a good "character" fish, indeed. Can be quite active and downright boisterous at feeding time.

And yes, most Geophagus species will be fine. Altifrons are pretty, and I've seen fish labeled as this in several shops - but unless I can ID the fish myself, I don't trust Geophagus ID's, as a general rule. They are quite often "wrong".

--
Mats

lol, yeah, I know it could be hard to identify the right Geophagus when purchasing.
I suppose unless you really know your c*****ds it'd be hard to tell them apart. To me they all look the same right now.
I'm going to really try hard to practice recognizing the correct species beforehand so that I don't wind up getting one of the more grumpy species.
Maybe if I'm lucky I'll find an actual breeder near me. I figure they'd be a bit more trustworthy than the average LFS, and would have done actual research into their species.

@ glass thickness, I have a 400 * 100 * 70 (h) cm tank, with 12 mm glass. Many people say 12 mm is on the thin side, but I don't overly care

However 70 cm is 28 inches, while you intend to go for 36 inches. I would not dare trying this with 15 mm glass - or 5/8th of an inch. 20 mm, that is 0,80 inch, is what I would require

Void wrote:lol, yeah, I know it could be hard to identify the right Geophagus when purchasing.
I suppose unless you really know your c*****ds it'd be hard to tell them apart. To me they all look the same right now.
I'm going to really try hard to practice recognizing the correct species beforehand so that I don't wind up getting one of the more grumpy species.
Maybe if I'm lucky I'll find an actual breeder near me. I figure they'd be a bit more trustworthy than the average LFS, and would have done actual research into their species.

most species are less hard then Geophagus. However, they are not bred much, and I think many undfescribed species are around

For identifying, the pattern on the fins, the number of horizontal stripes and the markings on the operculum, together with the size, shape and place of the lateral bloch are the most important

Maybe if I'm lucky I'll find an actual breeder near me. I figure they'd be a bit more trustworthy than the average LFS, and would have done actual research into their species.

Which part of Canada do you live in...this supplier http://cichlaholic.com/lists.html has good stock and ships Canada wide and is knowledgable in the c*****ds you are after.

Thanks for the link, Birger!

if Geophagus is considered a "bruiser" I'm scared to think of the description of Aequidens rivulatus or Nandopsis umbriferum.......

Geopagus are quite docile. IME Satanoperca have decidedly more character than true Geophagus species; but both tend to ignore catfishes and concentrate on speciesmembers

but the Geophagus species I was hinting at belong to the large group known as "Red head".
these are shoaling fish, they do best in a group of 10 or even more, they are very suitable with catfishes and they are stunning.....

this is for example Geophagus sp Tapajos


Geophagus proximus


Geophagos altifrons from the Rio Negro

etc

The people at Monster Fish Keepers are suggesting I add an Arowana (once everyone else has grown enough to not get eaten.)

What are your opinions on this?