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Hi all! Could anybody, who knows for sure, tell me what these synos of mine are? The one I am suspecting is eupterus was sold as a "featherfin", another was sold as a longirostrus (but is it?); and the third was identified simply as "spotted" - my guess it is notatus.

My identificaiton skills of Synos is probably about 3 on a scale of 1-5, but the bottom one I'm 99% sure is (formerly known as S. eupterus).

I'm also 90% sure the two other fishes are neither nor , and I'm afraid they are hybrids (fish made by injecting the parents with hormones so that they are ready to lay eggs/sperm and then mixing two different species to make a "new" type of fish).

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Mats

The first two fish are hybrids.

Thank you! This sounds very reasonble to me. So the one I thought euptera is the right one.
Would you have guesses to any of the four parents of the two hybrids? In case it may be helpful - couple more shots.
Viktor

I'm afraid when it comes to guessing the parents, it is just that "guess", and it's pretty hard. I suspect the light-coloured one with spots does have something like S. notata in the lineage, and the second one probably has S. nigrita in the lineage - but what else is hard to say - it's a bit like looking at a mongrel dog and try to say "it's a mix of X and Y" - well, sometimes you can tell that it's probably got a Labrador retriever or German shepherd or some such in one parent, but more often than not, it doesn't look enough like either parent to say for sure...

Edit: the people who wield the syringes to inject the hormones and then strip the fish of roe/milt aren't telling others what you get when you mix the X and Y fishes - that's part of how they make their money when they produce a "nice" one.

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Mats

MatsP, thank you! The pieces of the puzzle start falling into places. What you say is even more reasonable - the fishshop people I got these from were not told/did not know what their exact names are. Now, how about this one, is it a pure S. Decora? (was sold just as "banded" - the store would not give me the common or latin name either)?

The "Banded" fish certainly has S. decora in the heritage [or it's a yet unknown species, which I doubt]. True decora, even when small, have a long dorsal extension.

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Mats

So it is NOT a true decora. I reviewed the pics in Cat-eLog and you are right (of course - I have not noticed it right away but most of them do have a long string-like extention on the dorsal fin, although there are a couple of shots where it is absent and these fish look a bit different from the rest (what does it mean - are they hybrids that made it into the pic list?). Now, I am starting to doubt even the ones I was "reasonably" sure about. Do you think this is a true S. euptera?

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's S. euptera.

Regarding S. decora, it would be great if you can point out which pictures you think are different, it would help to see what the story is (there is a number above the image when you have clicked the thumbnail, where it says "image 5 of 12" or some such, which makes it easy to know which one we talk about).

It is not impossible, but we try not to put Hybrid fish in with genuine ones.

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Mats

Silurus wrote:The first two fish are hybrids.

Absolutely

Viktor Jarikov wrote:So it is NOT a true decora. I reviewed the pics in Cat-eLog and you are right (of course - I have not noticed it right away but most of them do have a long string-like extention on the dorsal fin, although there are a couple of shots where it is absent and these fish look a bit different from the rest (what does it mean - are they hybrids that made it into the pic list?). Now, I am starting to doubt even the ones I was "reasonably" sure about. Do you think this is a true S. euptera?

Yes - true decora - unless the mandibular barbels are NOT branched (which i can't see from the pic)

No - hybrid Euptera - the blunt head indicates this is what is pictured in Seegars as S Galinae (which we take to be a man-made hybrid)

That decora hybrid looks a lot more decora than my hybrid. Which doesn't mean it's not a hybrid, just that it looks a lot different from mine (I have one of the Valentine's).

To Mats: thank you. the pic numbers that may evoke suspicion in my novice and untrained eye are 2, 7 and 11. (#16 is wrong all together - a bug?) BTW, Richard B. thinks my guy is a true S. decora (though you never said he was not ).

To Richard B.: thank you. Yes, the four lower-lip barbels are branched. The two upper lip ones are not or at least not clearly visibly branched. In superficial opposition to Mats' statement, does your answer mean that S. decora may lack the dorsal fin extention? As for the euptera, S. Galinae is not in Cat-eLog, I guess because it is a hybrid (?), although I believe I have seen some hybrids listed here and there, say among shovel-noses. Anyway, bottom line, he is not a pure S. euptera.

To Suckermouth: thank you. do you have a pic of your hybrid?

Let me see if this works:



Let me know if that doesn't work, though I can see it just fine. This is my fish about two years ago, he's grown some since then but I don't take pics that often. Notice the different color. It is missing its left pectoral fin.

I'm not disagreeing with Richard on the ID of the larger "euptera", but I'm amazed that they're deliberately making hybrid euptera look-alikes as well- UNLESS hybrid offspring really do have better survival rates then true-bred hormone-stimulated crosses- something that's been intimated but I don't think ever conclusively answered.

Viktor Jarikov wrote:To Richard B.: thank you. Yes, the four lower-lip barbels are branched. The two upper lip ones are not or at least not clearly visibly branched.

Then your decora is a hybrid, sorry.

About euptera, I have seen genuine hormone bred specimens at Germany which look like yours. I don't think yours is a hybrid, just hormone bred euptera.

Quickly (got to put food on...): True S. decora has branches on ALL barbels - nearly ALL synos have branches on the four lower ones, but most have none on the two upper ones. S. decora, S. flaviataenata and a few others have branches on all six barbels.

As far as I know, the dorsal extension in definitely diagnostic - but it may of course get damaged by fin-nipping fish, etc.

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Mats

To recap then...

Suckermouth's decora is hybrid (look at tail: not striped)

Viktor Jarikov de ora seems genuine.

The euptera may be genuine but hormone bred but is pictured AFAIK IMHO as S Galinae in Seegars

It may SEEM genuine, but according to Viktor it has only four of the barbels that are branched. I was able to see the branched barbels on my 3-4" one that I got from Oxford about a year or so ago! No branches -> not decora.

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Mats

MatsP wrote:It may SEEM genuine, but according to Viktor it has only four of the barbels that are branched. I was able to see the branched barbels on my 3-4" one that I got from Oxford about a year or so ago! No branches -> not decora.
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Mats

Agreed - BUT the mandibular branching is very slight compared to the maxillary barbels - i think we need a close up pic or for Viktor to look more closely as he may not have understood (there is an excellent pic on p67 of sands CotW vol2 or pic 6 in cat-e-log)

Gentlemen, ladies, very nice discussion, especially for the benefit of my ignorant self. Thank you for the education.

To Richard B.: is there a typo in your message or am I confused? Maxillary barbels are at the mouth sides. Mandibular ones are on the chin. Right? Pic 6 from Cat-eLog shows strong branching of the four chin barbels and relatively slight branching of the two mouth ones, in opposition to your statement, or am I missing something? One thing is clear though. You are right - I need a better shot/look-see to settle this aspect down. What do you make of the lacking dorsal extention? Mats says it is a must but mine does not have it (and it APPEARS absent in the species in pics 2 and 7, maybe 11 too).

To Suckermouth: your guy is beautiful. Thank you for sharing. For the sake of my learning, I would dare to disagree with your initial statement, where you say that mine looks more of a decora than yours. Yours has spots, which appears closer to true decora than mine with his bands. As for the underlying color - I do not know how to read that; mine is darker upfront and lighter, almost white towards the tail while yours is more or less evenly yellowish in the length direction - is this what you imply when you say "notice the different color"? Richard B. says tail is tell-tailing making yours a hybrid.

To Jippo and Carp37: thank you!

To Mats: thank you! Are you still forming an opinion on pics 2, 7, and 11?

Viktor Jarikov wrote:To Suckermouth: your guy is beautiful. Thank you for sharing. For the sake of my learning, I would dare to disagree with your initial statement, where you say that mine looks more of a decora than yours. Yours has spots, which appears closer to true decora than mine with his bands. As for the underlying color - I do not know how to read that; mine is darker upfront and lighter, almost white towards the tail while yours is more or less evenly yellowish in the length direction - is this what you imply when you say "notice the different color"? Richard B. says tail is tell-tailing making yours a hybrid.

Yeah, I think my fish has more of a multipunctata color than a decora color to it. But perhaps I've seen my fish too much, which is why I think it looks less like a decora.

Sorry for the confusion - i quoted the barbels the wrong way round but the point is ALL barbels on true decora have branches - the Maxilary are small branches though - only a few syno species exhibit this

Viktor Jarikov wrote:To Mats: thank you! Are you still forming an opinion on pics 2, 7, and 11?

Image 2: I'd say there is branching in the two top barbels there - but no dorsal extension, so it may be a hybrid.

Image 7: Too tiny to say. If it's 1.5-2cm (1/2-3/4") long, it's not going to be easy to see the branches on any of the barbels, and I suspect the dorsal extension does arrive at a slightly older age.

Image 11: clearly shows branched barbels, and the dorsal extension is sort of visible, but it is mostly hidden by the plants.

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Mats

MatsP wrote:

Viktor Jarikov wrote:To Mats: thank you! Are you still forming an opinion on pics 2, 7, and 11?

Image 2: I'd say there is branching in the two top barbels there - but no dorsal extension, so it may be a hybrid.

there's definitely not a notable dorsal extension on this fish, but there does appear to be some extension on this fish- maybe not enough to shake off the possible hybrid tag, though.

All right! Today morning, I had to transfer the suspected S. decora along with about a dozen other small and smallish fish from my 120-gal tank, where they started to get picked on by larger tankmates, to my 27-gal hex. Now, I can see him quite well. Yes! The two maxillary barbels ARE branched - the branches are far smaller than those on the mandibular barbels, but clearly there and span almost the whole length of the barbels - the picture is quite consistent with the others in Cat-eLog for S. decora. Thus, the dorsal extention appears to remain the only point of contention or does it not matter any more? Is my Bandit (his nickname) a true S. decora or is it still merely a hypothesis, however strong or weak? I will try to get a few more shots of him, if it could be of use. Please, let me know.
Thank you!
Viktor

Pictures are definitely useful. Also an indication of the size of the fish - if it's really young, it may be that it's not got the dorsal extension (although I was under the impression that it's there from pretty early on). A clear shot of both the caudal and the dorsal fins would help.

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Mats

Historically w/c decora start to develop the dorsal extension at the 4-5 inch mark.

More recently we've seen some far smaller ones with significant development & i wonder if these are t/b specimens (i presume so)? & why there should be a difference.

I have seen 12" specimens (genuine w/c) without any extension at all but it has not been possible to determine if it has never had it or it has been lost.

Ok. He is about 3 inches. Please, see if these are useful (never mind the white marks on his body - my alligator gar left these on him, which was the last straw and I transferred him to a smaller, safe tank two days ago; pics are of this Sat morning).
Viktor

a couple more