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I was pleasantly surprised to discover that my breeding group of Peckoltia sp L134, Leopard Frog Plecos, produced the first brood of what is season 3 for me. I hadn't begun my usual transition from tap water to RO /tap water blend I use during breeding season.
What is different this year is the addition of 4 F1 females from my oldest group. I won't know for awhile if theses F1 are breeding but if my numbers are higher that would be a good indicator since I did loose one of my original wild females last fall.
I noticed the fry just as I began the first RO water change replacement in anticipation of the pending breeding season. I never count on them spawning each year but after 3 consecutive years maybe it isn't just dumb luck. Once I breed my tank raised specimens like those I sell I will feel much more confident that the methods behind my madness are reasonably sound. So far, my L134 have begun spawning within +/- one week of March 1st then wind up their breeding season within +/- 1 week of September 1st.
I get so excited every time I discover my plecos have spawned. I never check their caves for eggs. I just wait until I see independent fry roaming about the breeding tank.

I do have a good supply of 9 to 12 month old F1's which I will begin shipping as soon as weather permits using USPS Express.
They are 1-1/2 to 2+ inches long. PM me if you want me to let you know when I am ready to begin shipping again.
I postponed getting my FedEx account permission to ship live fish because the cost difference is enough to buy an extra pleco and most people have indicated that they didn't mind waiting for a couple months.

Disappointingly, my Queen Arabesque, Hypancistrus sp L260 failed to spawn at all this winter. I guess I still have some way to go before I get them "dialed in". OTOH, I have a good stock on hand of young L333 up to 2 inches long.

Now all I wish for is my 3 pairs of wild "Red" Alenquer Discus to break the ice and start producing. I have abandoned breeding domesticated Discus altogether and am working only with wild or wild F1's. The Alenquer Discus which are naturally quite red, 12 rarely obtainable F1 Royal Blues and later this year I plan to get 10 wild Red Spotted Green Discus(RSG). RSG Discus are roughly twice as difficult to breed in captivity so early filial tank raised specimens are next to impossible to find in the USA.
The availability of more tank raised wild type Discus has been neglected due to the plethora of fancy hybrid domestic Discus but there s a big difference in how wild type Discus behave and their domesticated cousins. And nothing is more beautiful than a group of healthy wild Discus cruising around in an appropriately set up planted tank.

congratulations, Larry! you have those leopard frogs down pat! beautiful pl*co.

Hi Larry,
I wish you a productive season

Hopefully I will also have some L134 before the next "season" down here. My Peckoltia sp L140 are continuing to spawn, usually only 10-15 fry per spawn, however the male seems to have both fresh eggs and fry that have consumed their yolk sack in the cave at the same time, due to the 5 females all being gravid at the same time.

I always find your posts very informative.

Regards

Geoff

Hi Geoff,

On a very few occasions, have had multiple L134 females spawn consecutively in the same cave but is is rare but apparently within norms.

Good luck with this year's spawning program. It's always nice to have more tank bred fish available.

I really am looking forward to the day when my F1 L134 begin spawning. Once that happens then I think L134 may become one of the best beginner's species for those who wish to graduate to something more challenging than common Bushy Noses.
I sold enough of them that if the tank raised fish are easier to breed we should begin seeing results within the next year or so.
The imported numbers of L134 seems to have been declining over the last few years so an aquarium strain is needed.

As always, great to hear news from your fishroom Larry.

Hi Rupert,

I always enjoy hearing from you.
As you have already gathered, I have gone completely wild with my Discus and leaving the domestics for the beginners.

I sure hope you are able to sample New Zealand's trout fly fishing opportunities before you return. People pay $5000 to fish a week in new Zealand not including air fares so it may be a once in a life time chance.
Also sample the aquatic insect larvae that the trout eat. It will add to your understanding of the fresh water ecologies and the knowledge is transferable to keeping New Zealand native fish. I would probably be tempted to stay just for the fly fishing.

If either of you (Larry or Rupert) wanted to spend some time in the Taupo / Turangi area I am sure I could let you use our holiday home for free, and my cousin runs rafting / fly fishing trips up the back waters of some of the rivers, so I am sure that a great price could be arranged for that.

Farid might be keen on that also?

Larry, is the tiger worm (Eisenia foetida), OK for feeding the fish?

Cheers

Geoff

Geoff,
What an incredibly generous offer.
I still would need to sell a lot of fish and have a very good back surgery outcome in order to truly exploit the good fly fishing.
I live in a strategically located town for fly fishers and hunters. Close enough for amenities and necessities but I can be on some of the best trout fishing streams and lakes within a 3 hours drive. I can float tube the lakes but my best wading days are behind me.
Now I have to use my intimate local knowledge and experience to extract the best fish with the least physical effort. It is all sport since I fish catch and release fisheries.
I could have my back surgery if I insisted but the surgeons do not think my chances of coming out are much better than the status quo enough to take the risk unless I reach a point where I can't walk and only have everything to gain and nothing much to loose.
It is frustrating on many levels. You would believe what I would do as a owner of a fish business if I was able to get rid of being disabled. My advice is never drive over a cliff. It can be hazardous to your health. I did it off the side of Mt. Rainier.
At least I am around to complain about it and still raise a few fish.

apistomaster wrote:Geoff,
What an incredibly generous offer.

An offer reflective of the value of the knowledge I have gained from you and others on this forum.

apistomaster wrote: Now I have to use my intimate local knowledge and experience to extract the best fish with the least physical effort. It is all sport since I fish catch and release fisheries.

That just sounds clever, and it is great that you didn't just give up.......
I was pushed off a cliff once, but it was only 40 or 50 feet high and I was lucky to walk away.

Can I ask, do you leave your L134 fry in the tanks and just "harvest" them later in the year?

Thanks
Geoff

I keep a breeding group of 2 trios in a 20 L, 30 X 12 X 12 inches. I like to leave the fry in the breeding tank at least 3 or 4 weeks but sometimes longer depending upon how many fry have accumulated. If too many are left in too long they become serious competitors for food with the very latest hatched broods which are often 4 times smaller.
I play it by feel. Sometimes a number of broods are produced in a short time and the tank becomes too over crowded to get the kind of rapid growth I want. I drain the tank down to about 1/4 to 1/3 filled, remove all hiding places then take my time catching the fry so as to not injure any. I take care to not tilt any of the spawning caves just in case there are any eggs or larvae being guarded by the males but the caves may be stacked or moved as needed to capture the fry.

Thanks for that Larry.

Cheers
Geoff

Hello there Larry i was wondering if you can give me some info you have on your breeding set up and feeding on your L134. Ive had some adults L134 for 3 months now and i havnt notice any signs of breeding from them any info would help alot thanks alot.

Larry,
Funny you should mention this species. I may have an opportunity to acquire a group of them. Congrats on the spawn. My L-387s are back in the cave, too. Not that I can see them to well. The substrate is flying everywhere.
Amanda

fishman70 wrote:Hello there Larry i was wondering if you can give me some info you have on your breeding set up and feeding on your L134. Ive had some adults L134 for 3 months now and i havnt notice any signs of breeding from them any info would help alot thanks alot.

Most likely you will be waiting a year or two before your "young L134's" even think about spawning.
Mine were almost 3 inches long when they arrived and did not begin spawning until a bit over two years later and now they are beginning their 3rd spawning season. Others have said 2 year old specimens have bred for them. I have some sexable 2 year old F1 specimens but they have not spawned for me yet. If they can spawn at that age mine should begin soon since the wild fish must have begun in early February for me to find fry all over when I did.
I use a very conventional small pleco species breeding set up. I have about a 1/2" of fine sand and a little gravel, 3 caves,2 ~6 inch pieces of Malaysian driftwood, one air stone, 2 Azoo Oxygen Plus Bio-Filter #6 sponge filter which are equivalent to HydroSponge IV's. One sponge filter is air lift driven and one has a MaxjJet 600 power head attached to it. There are a couple males and 4 females in a 20 gal. long aquarium. Water temp is 84 to 86*F and the pH is about 6.8 and the TDS is about 100 ppm.
I feed them mainly earth worm sticks and frozen blood worms.
There is some free floating Ceratophyllum(Tropical Hornwort) plant for shades and some cherry shrimp as scavengers.
I have a good supply of F1's which are 1-1/2 to 2+ inches for sale in lots of six. I may run a sale on the buy 6/$240 and get a 7th one free if ordered before April 15th and accompanied by a $50 down payment to reserve this limited time offer. I will begin shipping via USPS express mail as soon as the weather permits me to guarantee live arrival. Sometimes it takes 2 days for the fish to arrive so I avoid cold weather shipping. April is probably the earliest I will be shipping unless you happen to be in the American South West.
I am sorting out some computer problems but I will try to post some new photos as these fish are now old enough to have individualized patterns. They are evenly striped when they are less than 6 months old and look more or less the same as each other.
Lighting is by a dual NO T-5 Aqualight strip 30 inches on a hinged cover glass.

Thanks alot for the answer. When the spawning season begins do how do you do your water changes daily? weekly? how much? and how often do you feed them before spawning season and during season? thanks again.

apistomaster wrote:

fishman70 wrote:Hello there Larry i was wondering if you can give me some info you have on your breeding set up and feeding on your L134. Ive had some adults L134 for 3 months now and i havnt notice any signs of breeding from them any info would help alot thanks alot.

Most likely you will be waiting a year or two before your "young L134's" even think about spawning.
Mine were almost 3 inches long when they arrived and did not begin spawning until a bit over two years later and now they are beginning their 3rd spawning season. Others have said 2 year old specimens have bred for them. I have some sexable 2 year old F1 specimens but they have not spawned for me yet. If they can spawn at that age mine should begin soon since the wild fish must have begun in early February for me to find fry all over when I did.
I use a very conventional small pl*co species breeding set up. I have about a 1/2" of fine sand and a little gravel, 3 caves,2 ~6 inch pieces of Malaysian driftwood, one air stone, 2 Azoo Oxygen Plus Bio-Filter #6 sponge filter which are equivalent to HydroSponge IV's. One sponge filter is air lift driven and one has a MaxjJet 600 power head attached to it. There are a couple males and 4 females in a 20 gal. long aquarium. Water temp is 84 to 86*F and the pH is about 6.8 and the TDS is about 100 ppm.
I feed them mainly earth worm sticks and frozen blood worms.
There is some free floating Ceratophyllum(Tropical Hornwort) plant for shades and some cherry shrimp as scavengers.
I have a good supply of F1's which are 1-1/2 to 2+ inches for sale in lots of six. I may run a sale on the buy 6/$240 and get a 7th one free if ordered before April 15th and accompanied by a $50 down payment to reserve this limited time offer. I will begin shipping via USPS express mail as soon as the weather permits me to guarantee live arrival. Sometimes it takes 2 days for the fish to arrive so I avoid cold weather shipping. April is probably the earliest I will be shipping unless you happen to be in the American South West.
I am sorting out some computer problems but I will try to post some new photos as these fish are now old enough to have individualized patterns. They are evenly striped when they are less than 6 months old and look more or less the same as each other.
Lighting is by a dual NO T-5 Aqualight strip 30 inches on a hinged cover glass.

I feed my adults only once a day with some days giving them an extra feeding of frozen blood worms.
I feed my fry 2 times a day.
I try to change about 70% of their water each week but I sometimes just top it off and change it every two weeks during the winter when they aren't breeding and I'm using tap water. In February, after this benign neglect, I will make a 60% water change using straight unreconstituted RO water. Then through the breeding season I keep their water 75 to 100 ppm TDS so I have to mix about 20% tap water with 80% RO water. Once several spawns occur I usually make a few weekly 70% water changes with only tap water then repeat the soft water cycle. I basically time it so when I need to remove excess fry I do so when they have become used to mostly tap water. After their removal is a good time to do a large RO water change. I raise the fry in tap water.
My methods are not very precise. I have become used to their rhythms and pay very little attention to fine details. I am a lackadaisical
fish keeper/breeder.

thanks again for the info.

I picked up 4 small L-134s yesterday. I think I need to wait until next Spring, but your info is valuable, as usual, Larry!
Amanda

I agree, I've learned lots on these L134 threads. Thanks to all who contributed, especially Larry.

Is it norm for the L134s to spawn out of the season?

I have two different sized "surprise" litters two survived from the November/October spawn which I was clueless about until I moved stuff around and I'm now quite sure that there was another spawn in December/January that I was clueless about either while I was moving stuff around to remove some fish - there was about 5 little fry about 5mm darting around faster than I could blink....

and I also accidently removed one of the WC males out of his VERY TINY pipe- It was 1/2 inches wide. Thats the pipe I keep for my L046s! I was shocked to see him in that pipe with the clutch of eggs that came out. At first I thought he was half dead or something due to his whole tail half was so scrapped up..I think 28 in that clutch I removed the white one I quickly scooped the eggs now they're sitting in a DIY fry saver.... that was on monday- now today I'm starting to see eggs develop pink veins... one might have became white though. My question was is it normal for them to spawn out of season or is it one of the other plecos I might have in that community tank?

My spawning group of L134 have produced a few broods well outside of the spring to early fall which has been their normal spawning period. However, these unexpected spawns have all been very few and very small broods. None of the unexpected broods have ever been larger than 5 surviving fry. My average brood size is about 25 but some young females' first spawns have only been 12 to 15 fry and my largest individual brood from one female was about 35. In one unusual case, two wild females spawned in quick succession with one male and their combined spawn resulted in about 50 fry. I have had common albino Bushy nose trios breed successively and these large breeders combined spawns would often number over 170 fry.
I do not feel I can unequivocally say that L134 have a definite breeding season; only that mine seem to.

Yesterday I had a surprise of my own. While making water changes and refilling my L260 breeding group's tank I discovered about a dozen juveniles about 3/4" long. I think they must have hatched sometime last fall. Last fall I found 2 ejected egg masses which I tried to hatch out in a net breeder but the eggs all spoiled. Apparently, at least one spawn I was unaware of did survive. Their tank has a great deal of wood piled up so I rarely notice the secretive, newly independent fry, but just after I had moved them out of a previous set up, in which I did not think they had ever spawned, I found a couple very young fry. I have not had a great deal of success with breeding L260 but I have accumulated enough fry over the past 3 years that some of the oldest, 3 year old F1's, have spawned successfully. I have lost many fry for various reasons. Once I made a large RO water change when the RO was was cold. That killed a new brood of about 16 fry. The older fry and breeders were not affected but L260 fry are more delicate than L134 fry. In another mistake, I tried to raise 20 new L260 fry with new L134 fry and the L134 over took them with their greater numbers, faster growth rate and more extroverted behavior. I just barely managed to save 10 L260 out of that group. Most of my L260 spawns occur from early fall through about this time of the year. Roughly the reverse of when my L134 breed. I have had many set backs with my L260 but with this latest discovery of large juveniles, I now have 30 or more specimens of different ages including some of my original wild specimens. I have wild breeders which are at least 8 years old and some 3 year old F1 breeders. There still could be some very young and small fry in the tank that I have not seen, too. I keep such a tangled pile of wood in their tank that it is very difficult to spot new fry. This thicket of wood has always been present when I have been the most successful.

I also discovered that my L134 breeding tank had cool water while doing a partial RO water change. The water was only 78*F instead of the 84*F I normally keep them at. I replaced the heater so today they are at 84*F. I had been wondering why I hadn't had an L134 spawn yet so now I know and have corrected it. I am still only about 1/3 the way through the range of time they normally have spawned for me. I have made several RO water changes which is my way of simulating the onset of the rainy season. Now with the warmer water temperature the conditions have been corrected.
The heater was one of the Stealth heaters which Marineland has recalled. I have at least 3 dozen Stealth heaters which have already failed. Marineland is going to replace them or refund my money once I gather them up and ship them back. I already have the return shipping label they sent me printed out.

Congrats on the new fry, Larry.
I also prefer the wild/wildtype discus to the designer types. I'd also take Uaru over the designer discus any day.. David

Really useful information, as always.

Thanks

Melander