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opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 19 Jul 2010, 23:40
by andywoolloo
I have searched this forum and read lots of different opinions. I have searched the googles and bings and found lots of varying opinions.

what say everyone here?

I have a poster on another forum asking me about that possiblility.

Seems to go 50/50 in the fish world.

Coldwater/tropical
fast eating/slow eating

I just don't know really if there is a hard set answer.



Welcome all your opinions. I am leaning towards no but who knows. :lol:

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 20 Jul 2010, 00:40
by corybreed
I don't see why you couldn't keep fancy goldfish with bristlenose plecos. As long as the temperature does not go above the low 70's they all should be fine.

Mark

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 20 Jul 2010, 01:45
by drpleco
they'll be fine together as long as the BN is big enough to not get eaten. Fancy goldfish do better in the high 70's anyway, and like a veggie diet, so the two are definitely compatible. Just make sure to keep nitrates down to keep the goldfish and their swim bladders healthy.

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 20 Jul 2010, 06:59
by andywoolloo
thank you very much for answering.

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 23 Jul 2010, 10:46
by MatsP
When I first got back into fishkeeping, it was because my wife bought a couple of goldfish and a plastic tank. And then I got a "pleco" to keep the tank clean - that was Gus, the now great-great-great-grandmother of many hundreds, if not thousands of bristlenose fry.

Obviously, with a hundred different species of bristlenose, we'd better say: This applies to the "common" variety, not all bristlenoses. I would for example recommend to NOT keep in a goldfish tank - they have completely different requirements - goldfish like fairly hard/alkaline water and not TOO high temperatures, where the Rio Negro of A. dolichopterus is warm, soft and low pH.

There are some people who recommend against this is that sometimes various plecos have been known to suck onto the side of goldfish - particularly the deformed (sorry, but they are) ones that can't swim properly - this is probably often caused by lack of nutrition for the bristlenose as much as anything else.

--
Mats

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 25 Jul 2010, 17:35
by Deb
:D I'm going to weigh in here and say that according to all the serious fanciers of fancy goldfish the only fish that should be kept with a fancy is another fancy. This is my opinion, too.

This is further refined by tail and eye type. Single tails should not be kept with double tails, and normal eyed goldfish should not be kept with specialty eyed goldfish. The possible exception to this is the Dragon Eye or telescope eye; if the eyes are not too prominent, then the typical telescope - such as the so-called black moor or the chocolate telescope - may be kept successfully with fantails or other double-tail types with normal eyes.

The many varieties of Chinese goldfish have been developed with care over the centuries to reflect various aspects of Chinese culture. We in the west do not fully understand these principles, and to many of us fancy goldfish look ridiculous or, even worse, deformed.

This is not the case. The problem is that many of us here in the west do not get to see grand champion fancy goldfish or get to visit superior breeding facilities and study their techniques. We only know the selection at the local LFS. Even on-line offerings do not reflect the rich variety of goldfish breeds that exist; many Chinese breeder families have line-bred varieties which are never seen outside the family. Occasionally, an outstanding specimen may be brought to a national show.

In the book Fancy Goldfish, by Dr. Erik L. Johnson and Richard E. Hess, there is a section by brothers Jackie Chan and Louis Chan of the Tung Hoi Aquarium in Hong Kong. If you know fancy goldfish at all, these names will be known to you. In the chapter assigned to them, the brothers describe the Chinese concept of beauty and how it is evaluated in goldfish by the principles of quality, size, and rarity. In these terms the much more elusive quality of charm - shenyun - is discussed. All I can say is, I have never read a better written piece on the subject of goldfish. It explained everything.

Once you realize why each special variety of fancy goldfish was developed and how to judge an excellent specimen of each, you will understand why a large red oranda gives the impression of confidence and composure, similar to that of a medieval knight, and why the small-finned, stately lionhead gives the impression of an ancient Chinese lion dog, guarding the gates. I know I did. It was a beautifully written piece, lyrical and heartfelt. For the first time in more than ten years of reading everything I could about fancy goldfish, I finally understood what they are getting at with these various forms.

Poorly bred specimens will not give a good impression; they may be unable to swim upright and lack balance and purity of form. A well-bred fancy goldfish will swim upright and balanced in the water, and will have all of its attributes in balance and proportion. They live for many years in good health, despite that some of their internal organs are slightly rearranged. Well-bred excellent specimens will convey the particular aspect of their charm whether it's liveliness, stateliness, flirtatiousness, or bravery - to name but a few.

Goldfish are magnificent creatures in their own right and should be kept by themselves, with themselves. I suppose if andy's other forum poster was determined to keep fancy goldfish with a pleco, the domestic ordinary BN might survive it. Years ago, when such stores were common, I used to frequent a small appliance repair shop with a largish aquarium in the reception area. In it were two fancy goldfish of poor breeding and one large Pterygoplichthys. All three fish were named "Chuck," btw! There was lots of filtration and apparently they had been living like that for years, but no fish was getting what he really needed and no fish in that tank looked well. All had shredded fins, but the owner seemed to think this was normal. The pleco had that sort of slightly grayish look to him, which implied to me that he had some kind of low-grade on-going skin disease. I won't even go into how the goldfish looked - let's just say pale, awkward, and listless. They completely lacked shenyun. :wink: I'm sure the guy thought he had a great set-up going there because all three fish were alive and had been for some time. Is that success to us? It's not to me.

I have three tanks devoted to catfish and each one is set up with the needs of the specimen fish in mind. I won't use the word "biotope" because I don't really believe there is such a thing in the hobby, but I will say successful "theme tank." I wouldn't dream of mixing fish with differing needs or compatibilities and I think we should discourage andy's forum friend from doing so. If you love catfish, set up a catfish tank with plants, wood, and tetras sailing above. Why throw goldfish into the mix?
:D

ps: I used to keep fancy goldfish years ago. As we speak, I'm in the process of setting up a tank for them, again.

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 25 Jul 2010, 18:22
by drpleco
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I certainly respect the opinion that goldfish should be kept alone, and there's nothing wrong with keeping them alone. However, I firmly do not believe that this is the only way to keep goldfish. This is my pond (100g stocktank) with 10 fancy goldfish and one medium p. gibbiceps. Besides the smallest two Petsmart rescues, all of the goldfish were obtained from importers or a breeder in Hawaii. Besides their ornamental use, the goldfish are also great in my fishroom for eating the excess duckweed and shrimp that I net out during water changes in the rest of the room. I keep the room at 84 and the pond stays about 78-80 because it sits on the floor. They spawn almost daily and I've had to tie the sponge filters down because they were constantly being knocked over during the spawning process. When I reset them, they were covered in eggs.

It's a great system for me - goldfish eat duckweed (and progold and pea-based pellets), gibbiceps eats "processed duckweed" and eggs (and progold), and I have something to stare into after work to relax.

Again, to each his own, but I do not think that it's fair to tell anyone not to keep a bristlenose with goldfish. It might be argued that it's a goldfish's job to live in a pond or aquarium, and it's a BN's job to keep ponds and aquariums clean. (and it's our job to keep them healthy while they do their jobs.) If someone likes the algae-covered look, so be it, but it's OK to have an algae-less tank/pond, too.

Finally, there are a lot of cultures out there and aquarist culture is included in that. Certainly we can keep goldfish as an homage to Asian culture, but we can also keep goldfish as part of aquarist culture. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive, either.

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 00:25
by andywoolloo
thanks you guys. very interesting and I will share this link.

nice video doc!

I want to get my common and shubs into a pond soon.

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 01:27
by BeavisMom62
Hello all! I am the member of the other forum that Andy posted the question about. I actually thought that I had already registered here, but I find I hadn't. So, if for no other reason than to thank you all for your expertise and responses, I thought I would register and respond.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. Deb! Wow! What a wonderful and well thought out post. DrPleco and MatsP, I appreciate your differing views as well. As goldies are pretty much my favorite fish, I too subscribe to the thought that goldfish should be kept with goldfish, whether other fish are compatible or not. I guess Deb pretty much explained it best. To me there is just something special about goldfish and I appreciate their uniqueness and history (not that I know much about it). Even after I started researching and, like Andy, I couldn't find anything that said NOT to keep them together, I pretty much had decided not to.

I consider myself still basically a newbie. I've only been keeping fish for about two years and although I've learned alot, there is always more to learn. And with regards to the BNs, I made a typical newbie mistake. I didn't research thoroughly first. I have (just a quick history) five tanks: a 30 gal goldie tank, a 10 gal betta tank, a 23 gal tropical tank (serpaes, african dwarf frogs and a lone platy), a 65 gal tropical tank (angels, rainbow shark, dwarf gouramies, platys and two apple snails as well as an elusive raphael cat) and a 15 gal QT with 2 mystery snails to keep it cycled and at present 3 BNs). For some reason, I have an algae problem only in my betta tank. Figuring that BNs are small and good algae eaters (not that I would expect them to survive ONLY on algae!), I bought two BN's - one for the betta tank and one for either the 65 or 23 gal. Well, in QT one of the BN's died and the other disappeared. At the time I didn't know of their penchant for getting into filters! So, I went and bought two more, only to discover the one in the filter! Which left me with 3.

Well, after doing research after the fact and finding out that a 10 gal is too small for a BN, I had to figure out where to put all three of them. Which led to the question of goldies and BN's. But Ive decided to put one in the 23 and two in the 65, which is large enough that there shouldn't be territorial issues.

So, again, thank you all for your input and insight. I really appreciate all of your thoughts and words. And if you have any other advice for me, fire away!

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 04:31
by racoll
according to all the serious fanciers of fancy goldfish the only fish that should be kept with a fancy is another fancy
That's probably because they only like fancy goldfish. :lol:

I do, sort of, understand the admiration for good quality goldfish, but practically speaking, there is no reason why they can't be kept together with common bristlenose.

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 09:51
by Deb
BeavisMom62, thank you for posting here and for reading all of our replies. I think you've found a good solution for your BNs. I did feel rather strongly on the topic. :lol:

drpleco, I couldn't load your video, although I'd like to see it. I think my computer is too old. :( But please remember that I didn't tell anyone what to do. We were asked to give our opinions and I did. BeavisMom came to her own conclusion, even before she read this thread. My discussion of the development of the fancy varieties was really in response to Mats use of the term "deformed," not to push one culture over another! "Les chiens aboient, la caravane passe" or something like that ... :peace:
racoll wrote:
according to all the serious fanciers of fancy goldfish the only fish that should be kept with a fancy is another fancy
That's probably because they only like fancy goldfish. :lol:
Racoll, we can count on you to keep the humor going! :thumbsup:

Deb

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 26 Jul 2010, 15:25
by BeavisMom62
LOL, Deb, yes you definitely did feel strongly! But I admire that and enjoyed your argument. If I had no other choice, I probably would have put the BNs with the goldies, but since I do have other, more acceptable options, I chose not to. Again, I thank you all for your insight! :thumbsup:

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 17:45
by BeavisMom62
I have some more questions. I am getting ready to move one of the BN's out of QT to a new tank. At the moment I only have one piece of driftwood, which is in QT for them. I have to wait until payday to get more. I have one of those coconut shells, that used to be covered with moss until the snails ate it all. Is a coconut shell acceptable for BN's? Or only driftwood?

Also, is a 10 gal tank really too small for one BN and one betta? It really doesn't seem like it to me, but I'm not the expert here! I really would like to put a BN in the betta tank. that is my only tank that is always loaded with algae for some reason.

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 17:51
by MatsP
Technically, you CAN keep bristlenoses in a tank without wood in it, but they do gnaw on wood if it's available, and they will probably get some nutrition from that. But for a few days, it sure is fine to keep them in a tank with no wood.

Also, if coconut shell will, to some extent, do the same thing as wood.

--
Mats

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 23:21
by BeavisMom62
Thats awesome. Good to know.

SO, what do you all think about a ten gal tank? too small?

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 29 Jul 2010, 23:23
by racoll
BeavisMom62 wrote:Also, is a 10 gal tank really too small for one BN and one betta? It really doesn't seem like it to me, but I'm not the expert here! I really would like to put a BN in the betta tank.


Size-wise, the bristlenose will outgrow a 10g, but this will take a while.

Compatibility-wise, I would say a Betta tank is a worse home for a bristlenose than with fancy goldfish.

Betta need really warm, still water (>29C) with a warm humid environment above the tank.

This offers little gas exchange, so will affect the amount of oxygen in the water, and bristlenose need a reasonable amount.

:D

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 01:06
by BeavisMom62
Well, shoot! Variables, variables! Now that is something I hadn't even considered. I keep the betta tank (well actually all of my tanks) at right around 78-80 degrees. And, for the betta, I have a smaller filter without alot of water movement and no air stone in the tank. Bettas, obviously don't need the movement or airstone. Obviously didn't consider that aspect of BN care! Thanks alot, racoll. As you can see, I'm still learning and there are always things that I hadn't thought about. I appreciate your insight.

Re: opinions on keeping BN with fancy goldfish

Posted: 30 Jul 2010, 01:26
by racoll
Regarding these variables, I'm talking about providing optimum conditions for the fish.

A lot of people struggle with Betta, as their water is often too cold, and the air above the tank too dry. They don't live long in these conditions.

Of course compromises can sometimes be made, to fit other fish in.

It's of course difficult to be more specific, as it's really hard to make a judgement on someone's tank without having seen it.

:D