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I bought what I think is a Euchilichthys today (possibly guentheri or royauxi):


But mixed in with them was this fish, which has a deeper body and head, body not as elongate, head with larger granulations, paler colour, longer dorsal fin. I have emailed Tom Vigliotta to see if he can help but anyone know what genus and species it is? I understand the teeth are different in Euchilichthys and Atopochilus:

Nice fish. Can't help on the ID, I'm afraid!

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Mats

I think the first is

Did you look at Euchilichthys boulengeri for the second, the very light bands before and after the adipose make me think this.

Birger

Birger wrote:I think the first is

Euchilichthys royauxi

Did you look at Euchilichthys boulengeri for the second, the very light bands before and after the adipose make me think this.

Birger

Thanks lads.

Yes I looked at boulengeri but the shape of the caudal lobes made me question it. Do we know if male Euchilichthys get a longer upper caudal lobe as in some Chiloglanis? If so, then it might be a male E. boulengeri.

Now that it's a more sensible time of day, and I'm not watching motorcycle racing at silly hours of the morning, I thought I'd check the Seegers book. Your picture looks very close to the picture in the Atopochilus section. However, there is not corresponding picture in the Euchilichthys section and Dave Rinaldo's photo looks close too. Seegers isn't very clear on what the actual difference is between Euchilichthys and Atopochilus.

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Mats

Yes I looked at boulengeri but the shape of the caudal lobes made me question it. Do we know if male Euchilichthys get a longer upper caudal lobe as in some Chiloglanis? If so, then it might be a male E. boulengeri.

This would seem logical that they could as well, I think so, but I do not have any hard evidence to show it.

I have yet to find any reference to caudal lobe length to differentiate between species or genus in any of my information.

Birger

MatsP wrote:Seegers isn't very clear on what the actual difference is between Euchilichthys and Atopochilus.

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Mats

I understand it is the nature of the teeth in terms of how many branches they have (or not). Which to my mind is a very slight difference to base a genus on.

yup
teeth can evolve fairly quickly.

there's already a change about this thinking in cichlid nomenclature where fish that are virtually the same but share only different teeth are at
least in the same genus and don't deserve an entire new genus just because they have bicuspid teeth instead of tricuspid teeth or so.


At the moment it seems the Splitters run the show in catfish nomenclature; this means that every mismatched spot on a single individual immediately proves a new Corydoras/Ancistrus/Rineloricaria species.
any odd band means an entire new Hypancistrus species and so on.

if teeth and no other internal bone structures or size differences are the only difference between Atopochilus and Euchilichthys, it's more than likely that they'll end up in the same genus.

At the moment it is down to bicuspid teeth etc and in my opinion that alone isn't enough. There is even mention that in an individual they can change as they grow. However, nobody has done a proper study on this group of fish and it may be that once it is done, differences will be found.

Tom Vigliotta has come back to me and confirmed that the first one is probably E. royauxi, and the second one is Atopochilus mandevillei

Nice find Steve. How many did you get (just the two?) and how are you keeping them?

Cheers,
Mark.

CoryWally wrote:Nice find Steve. How many did you get (just the two?) and how are you keeping them?

Cheers,
Mark.

Ta

Yes, just the two. I've split them up because the E. royauxi was being aggressive to the A. mandevillei. They have some water flow and the tank is getting bloodworm and and courgette. I don't think they will bother with the courgette but its been put in anyway, just in case. They havent been seen feeding yet so I'm not fully confident they will thrive.

The.Dark.One wrote:Tom Vigliotta has come back to me and confirmed that the first one is probably E. royauxi, and the second one is Atopochilus mandevillei

The first one I thought we were on the right track...the second did he give any reasoning for his decision, not doubting, just wondering what led him to this.
I am now sitting in the PVAS convention hotel without my books so I can not look up A.mandevillei.

Birger

Birger wrote:

The.Dark.One wrote:Tom Vigliotta has come back to me and confirmed that the first one is probably E. royauxi, and the second one is Atopochilus mandevillei

The first one I thought we were on the right track...the second did he give any reasoning for his decision, not doubting, just wondering what led him to this.
I am now sitting in the PVAS convention hotel without my books so I can not look up A.mandevillei.

Birger

Hi Birger
Yes, he said it is easily identified by the long maxillary barbels and strong and heavily serrated pectoral fin spines. I've looked at the image of an adult preserved A. mandevillei on the catelog and in addition to these features it also has the very distinctive granulations on the head.

Sounds like we need a bit of updating of the Cat-eLog. Care to either update or post in "bugs" with some text to improve the current Cat-eLog entry "Identification" section?

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Mats

Nice catch!

Can you get mouth shot of Euchilichthys?

I have two Euchilichthys guentheri and biggest one is 17cm(TL) now and growing fast. Its head has turned more granulate so I assume it is a male.

jippo wrote: Can you get mouth shot of Euchilichthys?

I have two Euchilichthys guentheri and biggest one is 17cm(TL) now and growing fast. Its head has turned more granulate so I assume it is a male.

What does yours feed on?

Baensch's Atlas 4 suggests E. cf. boulengeri takes all kind of live, frozen and flake foods with mosquito larvae and mysis a favourite, with the fish 'scooting over the bottom sucking up large quantities of food.' E. guentheri is quoted as taking vegetable (inc. algae) and animal-based foods. The Atlas 4 has accounts for 5 Chiloglanis sp. also.

I kept some chiloglanis a few years ago but they didn't last long.

The mouth parts look useful for grazing/rasping food or holding position in fast flows. The dentition looks like it could act as rakers for sieving food also?
I imagine they'd be pretty omnivorous, 'grazing' on meiofauna and biofilm, but also partial to the odd meatier snack if they came across it.

I'd try keeping them on sand and feeding frozen cyclops or bloodworm to get some body on them. Not sure if they'd bother with veg.

Cheers,
Mark.

Perhaps a "jelly lump" would be ideal form of feeding here. Using Agar (available in specialist shops and selectively in Supermarkets) and a mix of food in a blender, you can get sinking lumps that can be fed to all sort of fish.

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Mats

I think that they are omnivorous so I'll try both types of foods. When I tried to get them out of the photograph tank you would not believe the strength of the suction of their mouth, at one point I had to stop pulling or I was afraid the mouth would be ripped off!

Mine has been eating quite much everything. I have mixed several foods together like Astra Stör Mini Pellets, OSI's Shrimp Pellets, TetraBits Discus food, New Life Spectrum Sinking Pellets, different kind of algae pellets and about once a week I give them fresh lettuce and zucchini. At the beginning I never saw them eating but when they have settled down they are quite pigs when they smell food.

Here is an old mouth shot of my E. guentheri:

I have today been told that unfortunately both specimens died today. Both were in different tanks.

I kept some chiloglanis a few years ago but they didn't last long.

I have today been told that unfortunately both specimens died today. Both were in different tanks.

Unfortunately these results echo my experiences with several Chiloglanis spp I have collected. I can collect 20 plus individuals and in a few months be down to 2-3 live specimens. Those few would survive several more months, but never truly thrive.

-Shane