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Hi guys

I posted something similar sometime ago regarding my sailfin plec.

10 days ago I had to move the tank he was housed in so was netted and placed in a 15G holding tank with 12 or so other fish from that tank for about 8 hours.

When all was done I netted everything back out (including him) and put him back in the 65G tank. Since then I have noticed a gradual deterioration in particularly dorsal fin but also on his tail and other fins.

Is this Fin Rot, if so why have none of the other fish shown signs of this?
Could this be from netting and the stress of the whole move?

More to the point he is due to make the move to a new home tomorrow, I am expecting 2 Jaguar Catfish which are to go in that tank. Hence if this is Fin Rot is it going to affect the whole tank. I could if safe (he is 6" now and not sure having him in a 15G tank would only make it worse) put the sailfin in a 15G Hospital tank and treat with meds if it is Fin Rot .. any opinions?

I would really appreciate some help with this.

Thanks

I don't see the typical "fussiness" that you get from fin-rot, and it sounds like other of your fish would be at least as sensitive to whatever may induce fin-rot outbreak.

I'd do two things:
1. Check your water quality: ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. pH and GH/KH would be nice too.

2. Observe if this gets better or worse. If it starts getting worse, then we should look at it again.


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Mats

Thanks for the Reply Mats

I feel the same regarding the fin rot, no fuzziness or effects on any other fish.

As for the water quality just checked it half hour ago

Ammonia 0 , Nitrite 0 , Nitrate 10ppm so a nicely cycled tank tbh ph is around 6.8 I think do not have a GH/KH test kit.

Have not really seen him fully extended today so not sure if its any better / worse but will let you know when I get a chance.

Other than that, would it be fair to assume its more either net (transport) damage or possibly even a growth spurt thing (he seems to have grown a little bigger this last week)?

Cheers

Certainly, getting caught in the net is quite common for plecos, and it can cause this sort of damage to the fish.

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Mats

Another tankmate could have caused the damage. What are you keeping the plec with?

I agree Mats

Racoll he is kept with nothing that would do this damage to him. He is by far the biggest fish in the tank .. He is with a 2" Magnum Plec, 5 Cardinal Tetra, 9 Glass Bloodfin Tetra, 7 Black Neon Tetra and 4 Adult with 25+ baby Assassin snails. There was 6 Sterbai Cory's in that tank but I have moved them to make room for the soon to be added 4 Cuckoo Catfish.

He is the one that bosses everything else.

If I can ask a potentially silly question and get some ideas that would be good

I have always done between 10 - 15% daily water changes using (from the start) Nutrafin Aqua+ Water conditioner. The last 2 weeks I have been using a bottle of the same product that came with the 30G tank. However this bottle was different, the liquid enclosed was clear, whereas the usual product is a brownish colour that gives a frothiness to the water when mixed in the bucket.

This "new" style version of the same product did not do this. Its got me wondering could there be something wrong with it? is it not removing the chlorine from tap water as effectively? I ask as this fin damage coincides with using this new style Nutrafin product.

As I say its probably a daft question, but thought I would mention it especially as the other 3 plecs have also shown similar fin damage just nowhere near as obvious as with the sailfin. The other 3 seem to be recovering quicker now (back onto an old style bottle of water conditioner).

Cheers guys

Hi Guys,

Starting to get a bit concerned with this damage on the sailfin plec.

All the other plecs are now perfectly fine, however the Sailfin is now showing (from the original picture I posted) about 2/3 total loss of tail and the dorsal (sail) fin is now approx half what it was in that picture.

I think after this length of time I can only assume that this is fin rot and will be this evening putting him into a hospital tank to treat with Maracyn Plus.

Would this seem the best course of action at this point?

I would have provided a pic but he does not leave his fins extended long enough for me to grab the camera

Cheers

Have you tested your water? Fin rot is absolutely related to water quality issues...

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Mats

Yup Mats I test the water every 3 days or so .. it's never varied from Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate varies around 5 -10 , ph is approx 6.8 -7 (only test that occasionally) I don't have GH / KH test kits but have never had any issues tbh.

None of the other fish in the tank have any symptoms of anything, its all a bit puzzling other than the fact the sailfin's fin damage is deff getting worse.

I will add that there is no fuzziness just looks like someone has raggedly cut the fins etc. Main reason for bringing it up again was the fact that his tail has lost about 2/3 mass since that pic was taken.

Also never seen any other fish attacking him and other than the 4 cuckoos and 1 magnum everything is tetra.

Thanks

what test kit are you using? Strips are notoriously inaccurate. Liquid are better.

Both go bad with time. May be a good idea to get a second test - at your LFS or by buying a new one.

A tap water change? May occur without your awareness, temporary or permanently.

Magnum = ? If that's the case, and water quality was a problem, I'd say you'd not have this fish before the sailfin gets affected...

I suspect SOMETHING is chewing the fins of your sailfin. There should be some sort of fuzziness or other signs of illness.

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Mats

10 days ago I had to move the tank he was housed in so was netted and placed in a 15G holding tank with 12 or so other fish from that tank for about 8 hours.

I also doubt fin rot based on the above information, but 8 hours in a holding tank can easily cause ammonia burns to the fins. Before using a powerful medication like Maracyn, which is a broad spectrum antibacterial (and thus will also wipe out your tank and filter's bacteria) I would try Melafix. It is all natural and will not kill off the filter's bacteria. It works well even on sensitive fish and I have had very good luck using it to treat ammonia burns.
I would not worry about testing so much, as this is a tank that is receiving daily water changes.
-Shane

OK I am happy using melafix but will it affect the assassin snails in the tank? (pretty sure it does) and also I would need to remove the carbon for melafix yes?

I really cannot think of what would chew the fins of a sailfin Mats?? Cardinals should be ok, what about Lemon Tetra's?

The L047 has been with the sailfin for about 10 weeks now and the magnum nor sailfin have ever had a problem (the magnum is about 2" or so and sailfin around 7")

This was happening before the catfish were added.

Viktor I use the API master test kit.

Don't underestimate the synos...they will certainly eat dead fish in a tank & if hungry could possibly 'pick' at a damaged tail of a slow moving fish like the plec. Particularly after lights out when no one is watching - i'm not saying this is the case, just a slight possibility as the plec might be distributing some sort of stress indicator to the other fish in the tank.

I've seen a pack of multis severely harrass a gravid Liosomadoras, picking up on some hormones in the water type of thing (constant chasing, nudging and nipping)

OK I am happy using melafix but will it affect the assassin snails in the tank? (pretty sure it does) and also I would need to remove the carbon for melafix yes?

Why do you believe it would harm snails?

I have treated tanks housing snails with no negative impact, the makers of Melafix state it does not hurt snails, and I found dozens of online articles by folks claiming they also used it with no negative impact on snails.

Yes, remove carbon when adding any medication to a tank.

-Shane

MelaFix can we used with any PondCare water conditioning products including Stress Coat, Ammo-Lock, and Chlorine and Heavy Metal Neutralizer. MelaFix does not interfere with water quality test kits. MelaFix can be used with pond salt and formalin-based anti-parasitic treatments. MelaFix can be used in ornamental ponds, water gardens, aquariums, and fish holding tanks containing goldfish, koi, live plants, snails, tadpoles and frogs. A slight foaming at the water surface may occur during treatment with MelaFix. When exposed to elevated temperatures, MelaFix may turn cloudy in the bottle. This is normal and will not affect the activity of the product.

Many thanks for the replies guys

Shane, I'm confusing it with something else doh! I will look at adding some ..

I will keep an eye on the cuckoos in case they are responsible for the continuing damage.

Thanks again, will try and post a pic for you guys tomorrow

you're mixing fish that should not be mixed at all. i strongly advise you not to do it;
if they're already mixed, then separate them again

in this case you have a tank full of Amazonian fish (the Gibby, the characins, the L number) and you add a group of Rift Lake african catfishes.....

the waterparameters these fish require are opposite of the rest needs'.
Amazon fish require soft and neutral to acidic water; Rift lake tanganyika n fish require hard alcaline water.

also: the cuckoo cat has evolved in a lake crammed full of cichlids.
this has resulted in a catfish with a character more suitable to a tank full of cichlids. it's a species known to harass unsuitable tankmates

the case of richards' example is another bad mistake; they have likely taken the similar patterned Liosomadoras for a very big and slow speciesmember.
and any Auchenipterid is a sitting duck in a tank with the more aggressive Synodontis species

you state that the Gibby is by far the biggest fish

but you make the mistake of anthropomorphism your fish!

to a human; attacking the biggest human around is a stupid mistake. if you're 5 foot 2 IT student, you don't start kicking the butt of a 6 foot 6 well muscled construction worker. you get greased!

but for a fish, especially a small nimble one, the biggest fish in the tank simply is the biggest target........
any loricariid with huge tasty fins is a big big dinner sitting there.
it can't move (compared to a characin or a Syno), it can't bite or nip and it's sloooowwww.
this is oppertunism prime.

IF you like the genus Synodontis and you want to combine them with your gibby and the characins there are 2 things you have to take in:
-get a rainforest species instead of a Rift lake species (water parameters issue)
-get a docile one (behavior issue)

for example the small true Upsidedown cat will do perfect: Synodontis nigriventris.
other great species include Synodontis contracta and the gorgeous Synodontis flavitaeniatus.

these can be combined with Amazonian fish and Loricariidswith no problems at all.

sidguppy So from what your saying the Jaguar catfish would be fine in that tank?

You are of course right in what you say and for that reason I will be moving the cuckoo's into the 15G (first thing tomorrow) until they can go back to the lfs then moving the Jaguars into what is the Amzonian Biotope tank (where the gibby etc are housed).

This a better idea?

Included a picture of the plec also.

gibby and Lio should co exist just fine

they like the same water parameters and if there are some holes or caves that the lio will fit in, but that are too small for the gibby, that'll be perfect

mind; a Liosomadoras can and does snack on small tetra's!
anything up to 1-2" is fish food. especially if it's elongated.

a fully grown 7" Liosomadoras can eat adult Hemigrammus or similar fish; that'll give you an indication what will fit in that big mouth

that mouth is huge, and it might look slow and sleepy during the day, it's not so sleepy in the dark

you can ofcourse feed him a lot and then he won't hunt much if any
but you'll have an obese fish on your hands and obesity is almost as bad for fish as it is for humans

Thanks for the reply sidguppy so tomorrow I will move the cuckoos into the 15G (where the Oncinus are currently in QT) then straight away move the Oncinus

Oh would it still be advisable to add some Melafix to try and help the gibby recover (even though will be adding the Oncinus too)?

Looking at the picture, it certainly doesn't look like a disease problem - it looks like "mechanical" damage - quite possibly something "nibbling" it.

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Mats

agreed

I see a healthy gibby
as soon as the nibblers are removed, the fins will grow back

don't use chemicals, they will harm the otherwise healthy fish more than benefit it.

I agree with all the good advice about rearranging tank mates and etcetera. However, I do not agree with the medications recommended. I place more trust in the use of known effective medications. Doing nothing works fine if there is no secondary infection beyond purely mechanical damage but damaged fins are open invitations for infections. You can take the chance and not treat but more fish that receive appropriate treatment will pull through than those not receiving any treatment.

I would treat the Pleco in isolation with acriflavine and gradually increase adding rock salt from 1 tsp/gal to 1 tbs/gal. Begin at the lower dose then add the rest after 24 hours. Acriflavine has good bactericidal properties so it can often stop the progression of the rotting and salt seems to help begin the healing of damaged fin tissues. It is hard to provide a recommended dose but since it is a fluorescing dye use enough to make the water yellow enough to be difficult to see well through the water. It is sold in so many different concentrations there is no exact dose I can provide.
It also has anti-fungal properties and can prevent fungus infections starting growing along the damaged edges of the fins. It is pretty safe so the exact dose is not very critical although too low a dose will not help much. Maybe this will help provide some guide lines.
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products.html#A
Healing should begin to become apparent within a couple days by the time the salt is at 1 tbs/gal.

Ideally, I would recommend Chloramphenicol HCL at 250 mg/5 gal. Unfortunately it is difficult to obtain although it may be possible to get some through a Vet by prescription. I can almost guarantee that will work if you can get some.
Using salt would be optional if you can obtain this antibiotic. The salt never hurts for treating fish with bad scrapes and/or damaged fins.
Oxolinic Acid is another effective drug and is much easier to obtain than chloramphenicol. It is good but not as much as chloramphenicol. It has a similar molecular structure as chloramphenicol and is widely used by the Koi Carp breeders and hobbyists for treating bacterial fin infections.
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products3.html#O
The antibiotics and antibacterial drugs available over the counter have become nearly useless after decades of over use. I do not consider Melafix or Pimafix as effective medications. In nearly every case where they have been used and the fish recovered they probably would have recovered anyway. This has led to some thinking the medications were responsible. They do no harm but they also have not been proven to be effective. I know of no controlled tests that prove their efficacy.

Many thanks for all your replies

The Gibbicep (sailfin) has now gone to a new home, was always dreading it personally as had him since I got back into fish keeping in January.

But it was always inevitable as he could not live his life out in a 65G tank.

As I say, thanks for all your help its as ever really appreciated
Mark

Great to see that you made the right decision. They are great fish, but unless you have LARGE space for a big enough tank.

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Mats