Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Where is the lab?
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Dr. Jay Nelson,Jools wrote:Where is the lab?
Department of Biological Sciences
Towson University
Towson, Maryland USA 21252
http://pages.towson.edu/nelson
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
I'd seen that before, my brain being dull. There are lots of fish keepers in that area and a Planet folks too. I reckon someone would be able to take pics at some point. But even a smartphone pic would probably suffice forID.
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Jools
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Thanks for you investigating, Eric Like Jools said, a photos would be enough, especially one of the mouth/teeth.
Matthew
Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Hello friends!
At first, sorry my English in advance. I hope you will be able to understand
I'm not a scientist, too; I have an education in biology (ichthyology especial) in my background but I have had a loooooong pause and I never really worked in this area. So, my opinion may be just a "semi-educated speculation". But...
What about the weight loss at the wooden diet.
What kind of woods these fishes was receiving?
In the natural habitat, I believe that woods-eaters have unlimited source of woods. And I believe that, in this situation, they eats not exactly WOODS - but only a surface layer of woods, softened and partially destroyed already with fungi, bacterias and algas - so it should not be a clean woods but a rich "cocktail" of partially destroyed woods, bacteria, fungi and algas, which contain alot of protein and other supplements, maybe richest by protein than a regular planted foods. In a real life they just have no needs to eating of under-layers of hardwoods, because they can migrate to a neighbor places, till a cleaned surface will be "restored" - or destroyed - enough to consumption.
If I right, in this situation bacterial digestion of woods may play just a very tiny role in a "energetic" feeding and may working more for help to eliminate a "ballast" of woods, consumed as a side-effect; and some additional benefits by providing some supplements like vitamins etc. If in a laboratory they received just a not sufficient amount of woods, surface cannot be able to be prepared properly by bacteria and fungi, and fishes eats just a clean woods which is not their natural food, and lose their muscle mass, of course...
At first, sorry my English in advance. I hope you will be able to understand
I'm not a scientist, too; I have an education in biology (ichthyology especial) in my background but I have had a loooooong pause and I never really worked in this area. So, my opinion may be just a "semi-educated speculation". But...
What about the weight loss at the wooden diet.
What kind of woods these fishes was receiving?
In the natural habitat, I believe that woods-eaters have unlimited source of woods. And I believe that, in this situation, they eats not exactly WOODS - but only a surface layer of woods, softened and partially destroyed already with fungi, bacterias and algas - so it should not be a clean woods but a rich "cocktail" of partially destroyed woods, bacteria, fungi and algas, which contain alot of protein and other supplements, maybe richest by protein than a regular planted foods. In a real life they just have no needs to eating of under-layers of hardwoods, because they can migrate to a neighbor places, till a cleaned surface will be "restored" - or destroyed - enough to consumption.
If I right, in this situation bacterial digestion of woods may play just a very tiny role in a "energetic" feeding and may working more for help to eliminate a "ballast" of woods, consumed as a side-effect; and some additional benefits by providing some supplements like vitamins etc. If in a laboratory they received just a not sufficient amount of woods, surface cannot be able to be prepared properly by bacteria and fungi, and fishes eats just a clean woods which is not their natural food, and lose their muscle mass, of course...
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Hi all,
If you look on page 2. of this thread there are links <"http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 4&p=268294"> & <"http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... an#p241856"> to some earlier discussion on this with Dr Donovan German <"http://german.bio.uci.edu/Research_1.ht ... ecology_of"> as well as to the Towson University papers <http://pages.towson.edu/nelson/Panaque/panaque.html>.
cheers Darrel
That would be my suggestion as well, "not all wood is equal".Krakozawr wrote: What about the weight loss at the wooden diet.
What kind of woods these fishes was receiving?
In the natural habitat, I believe that woods-eaters have unlimited source of woods. And I believe that, in this situation, they eats not exactly WOODS - but only a surface layer of woods, softened and partially destroyed already with fungi, bacterias and algas - so it should not be a clean woods but a rich "cocktail" of partially destroyed woods, bacteria, fungi and algas, which contain alot of protein and other supplements, maybe richest by protein than a regular planted foods. In a real life they just have no needs to eating of under-layers of hardwoods, because they can migrate to a neighbor places, till a cleaned surface will be "restored" - or destroyed - enough to consumption.
If I right, in this situation bacterial digestion of woods may play just a very tiny role in a "energetic" feeding and may working more for help to eliminate a "ballast" of woods, consumed as a side-effect; and some additional benefits by providing some supplements like vitamins etc. If in a laboratory they received just a not sufficient amount of woods, surface cannot be able to be prepared properly by bacteria and fungi, and fishes eats just a clean woods which is not their natural food, and lose their muscle mass, of course...
If you look on page 2. of this thread there are links <"http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 4&p=268294"> & <"http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... an#p241856"> to some earlier discussion on this with Dr Donovan German <"http://german.bio.uci.edu/Research_1.ht ... ecology_of"> as well as to the Towson University papers <http://pages.towson.edu/nelson/Panaque/panaque.html>.
cheers Darrel
Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Thank you for links Darrel, this is a direct link which mentioned exactly what I mean: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... an#p241856
All wood is equal (more-less, if we will forget about tannins and other supplements) - this only a cellulose at least; but not a wood is an energy source for fishes.
All wood is equal (more-less, if we will forget about tannins and other supplements) - this only a cellulose at least; but not a wood is an energy source for fishes.
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
It could be Krakozawr was thinking of this: Wild fish, caught and brought to the USA might not be the same as they originally were
It could be bacteria have entered the gut, which was vulnerable because it was empty. We do know Otocinclus can have their guts infected because of being empty, why not Panaque as well.
If this was not Krakozawr's question, his posting made me think of it. Therefore I think he deserves any credit.
I think it is a good question, but if anyone would be offended by it, I'm afraid I'm to blame for putting it this bold.
It could be bacteria have entered the gut, which was vulnerable because it was empty. We do know Otocinclus can have their guts infected because of being empty, why not Panaque as well.
If this was not Krakozawr's question, his posting made me think of it. Therefore I think he deserves any credit.
I think it is a good question, but if anyone would be offended by it, I'm afraid I'm to blame for putting it this bold.
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
It sounds like you should develop a new product - probiotics for panaques! In truth, maybe it's not a bad idea. We should encourage Allen Repashy to get on this - maybe he can develop a sawdust-based gel or paste with probiotic microbes in it, essentially aufwuchs in a tube.Bas Pels wrote:...Wild fish, caught and brought to the USA might not be the same as they originally were
It could be bacteria have entered the gut, which was vulnerable because it was empty. We do know Otocinclus can have their guts infected because of being empty, why not Panaque as well.
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
I believe that just a little detritus from a healthy tank wit a same /similar species should be OKbekateen wrote:It sounds like you should develop a new product - probiotics for panaques! In truth, maybe it's not a bad idea. We should encourage Allen Repashy to get on this - maybe he can develop a sawdust-based gel or paste with probiotic microbes in it, essentially aufwuchs in a tube.Bas Pels wrote:...Wild fish, caught and brought to the USA might not be the same as they originally were
It could be bacteria have entered the gut, which was vulnerable because it was empty. We do know Otocinclus can have their guts infected because of being empty, why not Panaque as well.
By the way, I don't think that it will be so easy to kill all symbiotic bacteria in a digestion tract of a live fish (even with antibiotics) at all, fish should be dead faster. Bacteria's population should be able to restore when environment will be normalized, I believe.
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Yes, I agree. I didn't mean to suggest that all captive fish, especially those following treatment with antibiotics or following the stress of importation, etc., would be devoid of gut microbes and incapable of reconstituting a healthy gut balance. But rather, it's been my experience that some species are more sensitive than others in terms of dietary health, and perhaps such a food supplement could be used to "promote" health rather than actually "create" health in captive fish (I'm not exactly sure what that phrase means, but it sounds good to me, anyway); this is related to what I was describing earlier in this thread with my "apartment building" analogy (http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... nt#p286915). Of course, the use of probiotics in humans has questionable value according to some doctors and scholars, myself included. But there are definitely times and people who benefit from such nutritional supplements, IMO.
Cheers, Eric
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Alas, my suggestion was read precisely as I did not intended it.
I was not afraid bacteria might have left the gut, but I thought they might have entered it.
It could be the nitrogen fixing bacteria live in wild Panaque in the front of the gut system, but in caught Panaque, due to the lack of food, and the therefore more vulnerable gut, the bacteria could have colonized further parts of the gut
Thus one could find bacteria where they would not be found in the wild
I was not afraid bacteria might have left the gut, but I thought they might have entered it.
It could be the nitrogen fixing bacteria live in wild Panaque in the front of the gut system, but in caught Panaque, due to the lack of food, and the therefore more vulnerable gut, the bacteria could have colonized further parts of the gut
Thus one could find bacteria where they would not be found in the wild
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Re: Nitrogen fixing bacteria in the gut of Panaque nigrolineatus
Oh.Bas Pels wrote:Alas, my suggestion was read precisely as I did not intended it.
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