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Hello everyone!

Alright so finally the chance has arisen to get my hands on some nice cats again. I am getting another pair of and the tank they are going into is plenty ready for them as the residential pair has been established in that tank for some time.

The other cats are and it will be a group of 6 for the 55 gallon. This is the tank that raises more concern for me. Its been established for about a month now, at first with 15 black phantom tetras and recently I swapped those out for an larger school of 20 rummy nose tetras. The rummy nose have been settled in for a week now and yesterday I increased the school to 25. The 6 Loricaria would be due to arrive on saturday so that means another week for the tank to mature and I will be there for the weekend to monitor water quality and could do a large water change on sunday before I leave for the week (boarding student) or I could do it on Friday before they are introduced as that would less stressful. I just want to be as safe as possible when it comes to this. If I had the choice I would get the school up to 30-40 rummy nose first however the seller only plans on having them until wednesday and never plans to get them again

I could always seed the filter with one of the 4 sponges from the Amaralia tank, I could even put a few in the Amaralia tank for the first month or so.

Do you guys think this sound safe enough or am I being reckless with catfish fever?

Can you not temporarily increase the bioload slightly, with a tetra group to join the rummynose tetras? Then find alternative arrangements for the added tetras if not in the long term plans. Not an ideal way to do it but at least introduction of the catfish will possibly be safer.

Like the crying whiptails though, I'm planning a small group, but the supplier isn't delivering fish until the spring.

In the absence of detailed information about diet, activity etc. for species, the next best approach to bio-load, imo, is to use body mass. Simply put, the bigger the fish, the more waste and ammonia it can make. So the fist issue is how big are the 6 whippies? If they are very young and fairly small, that is one thing, but if they have any size to them, I do not think the 55 will handle them if they are decent size, the tank will likely make too much ammonia for your current nitrifying bacteria to handle. So in your case imagine if you weighed all the tetras and then weighed the new whiptails, this would give you a clue. I tend to ask myself how many tetras would it take to build a mass the size of the cat. Focus on SL body mass.

This leaves you a few options. As you noted you can add cycled filters or media to the tank. But there is no way to be 100% sure this is enough. Another option is the add a viable bottled bacteria product to the tank before the new fish go in. I only suggest two brands and I am not sure if you can get them my personal favorite is DR. Tims One and Only Nitrifying bacteria and my second choice is tetras Safe Start. These are very similar as Dr. Timothy Hovanec is basically responsible for both.

I have used Dr. Tim's on a number of occasions and always keep some in my fridge for emergency use. I recently had to put 20 large adult sterbai cory into a 20 gal long. I had one small cycled 200 gph filter which I knew would not be anywhere near enough. So I did two things. First i added some plants to the tank since they use ammonia and also have bacteria on them. The next thing I did was use enough Dr. Tims to cycle about 20 gals. I also had the luxury of being able to add a single 2 ppm dose of ammonium chloride the day before I got the fish. This helps get the bacteria "revved up." I lost no fish and they were spawning in the tank almost within a week.

I would also note that I tested the tank for ammonia before allowing the fish to go in. it was .25 ppm. In my water params that meant the amount of that total ammonia which was in the toxic NH3 form was below the danger level of .05 ppm. NH3 levels under .02 ppm are considered safe for almost all forms of aquatic life. Despite that, I did a big water change before putting the fish into the tank.

Bear in mind that the ammonia can double in about 8-10 hours for the ammonia oxidizers and about 12-14 for the nitrite ones- under optimal conditions. So if my tank was able to process 1.75 ppm of ammonia over night leaving that .25 ppm, I was short about 12.5% of the bacteria needed. The amount of time required to remedy this via reproduction would be about 12.5% of 8 -10 hours or basically under two hours for both AOB and NOB.

If you want to calculate the amount of NH3 for any total ammonia reading to know how harmful it might be, you need to know the total ammonia, the pH and the temperature of the tank in fw aquariums. Then you need an ammonia calculator like this one http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calc ... mmonia.php It one works with fw, brackish and sw. For fw enter 0 for the salinity. Also, unless your are using a test kit which states it measures Ammonia-N or as nitrogen, select NH (NH3 + NH4) for the Total Ammonia Type.

Last comment, just to be safe, do not dose ammonia into any tank which contains fish or inverts. While I could do this in the example above, you cannot do it in the 55 which contains fish.

Hope this all helps.

Thanks TTA, I'll bear this info in mind, for when I get mine, I didn't see it quite the same way as measuring the mass of tetras to the whiptails, but you're spot on.

Hi all,

catfishchaos wrote:Do you guys think this sound safe enough or am I being reckless with catfish fever?

I'm a cautious man and I wouldn't add them unless they are very small, for the reasons TTA mentions.

The other questions would be "Is it a planted tank with floating plants?", and "can you lift the spray-bar out of the water, so that the falling water breaks the waters surface?".

Increased oxygenation and plants both increase the ability of a system to deal with bio-load, but they are only "sticking plasters" and as your fish grow (volume increases as the cube of length, and gill area as the square of length) disaster is inevitable.

Have a look at "<Bacteria revealed"http://www.alltropicalfish.com/saltwate ... a-revealed> it is some of Dr Tim Hovanec's more recent research into nitrifying organisms.

cheers Darrel

Independent of the issue of bioload, I'm concerned about quarantining new fish. Do you have that worked out?

Thanks guys!

I might have access to safe start but I already have seachem stability handy, would this suffice? I would simply have someone at home dose the tank for the span of a week as the bottle directs.

I had no idea the bacteria moved that quickly, its good to know! However I still would only feel safe after about a week of time elapsed but I am running thin on options. I'd have to acquire another 20 rummy nose tetras today or tomorrow, do a 50% water change on Friday (the day before) and feed them sparingly for the first week or so. Does this seem like a better plan?

I have no plants in the tank, I was looking into getting doradids and plecos that required to much flow for plants or are simply to destructive and the tank does not have sufficient space between the canopy and the water level to allow for floating plants.

As for quarantine I have nothing planned, I truthfully don't have the space to quarantine them, I'm planning on getting a school of corydoras from another seller that I can quarantine in a 10 gallon for a month first but I really don't have the facilities to quarantine larger animals (Mothers rule: You can have it if its fits in your room).

Why not remove the rummy nose and use ammonia to do a fishless cycle and jump start it with media from another tank? Then you can get it kickstarted and don't have to worry about livestock.

2wheelsx2 wrote:Why not remove the rummy nose and use ammonia to do a fishless cycle and jump start it with media from another tank? Then you can get it kickstarted and don't have to worry about livestock.

Do you want to catch 25 military grade torpedoes

Honestly that sounds like a great idea but I don't know where I would put them, the only other tank is the tank and I'm sure I would have a few less rummy nose after that. Where does everybody get their ammonia or ammonia chloride?

Do you guys think this sound safe enough or am I being reckless with catfish fever?

We are all guilty of it. I've done this once before, and obviously this sequence of actions is not good: buying fish and then leaving for a week. But since this is all going to happen, gotta make the best of it. First I wouldn't buy any more tetras. Then I would do a water change before 'Friday'. Maybe you want to add bacteria on Friday/Saturday per TwoTankAmin. (Once the fish arrived I would 'Quarantine') but since that cant happen, good luck with introducing them into the tank.Then I would drop a mature sponge from your Amaralia tank. Then I would research and order some sort of plant to try introducing once I got back; then leave directions for just a couple of light feedings for the coming week. Good Luck.

I can be one of the worst impulse buyers I know! Fish haven't been excluded from this. Although I'm getting much better at a research first -buy later approach. Like naturalart said even if some plants are not a permanent fixture, it may help. When it comes to QT when I've not had space it takes longer but i introduce bigger fish first and QT the smaller. Though QT was something I never used to do.

catfishchaos wrote: Do you want to catch 25 military grade torpedoes

Honestly that sounds like a great idea but I don't know where I would put them, the only other tank is the

Amaralia hypsiura

tank and I'm sure I would have a few less rummy nose after that. Where does everybody get their ammonia or ammonia chloride?

I just helped a friend move a 75 gallon with 100 rummies, cherry shimps and 100's of L340 fry. Trick is to lower the water level so they have no room to run 3 dimensionally. Much easier to corner them in 1 inch of water. Since you have no plants, piece of cake.

Why not a breeder's net in the Amaralia tank while you are doing that? I didn't realize you were in Nova Scotia. I think you can get ammonia at Canadian Tire and most drugstores up here in Canada.

If the breeder net won't fly then maybe a rubbermaid tub and a sponge filter.

Breeder net is a great idea (and so is the draining the tank)!

So by Ammonia everyone is just talking about the house cleaner ammonia? what dosage are we looking at to jump start?

also the only plant I can see doing well that I like is Anubias gracillis however its not south american and that wouldn't let me sleep at night so does anybody now a south american plant that doesn't need aqua soil? Its a little bit late to add it (as is slowly releases ammonia for 3 weeks )

There are a number of articles on the web but I have found this one to be very good (I have not used it since all my tanks have plants so I never fishless cycle). http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... ycling.php

As for ammonia you just have to check the ingredients on the bottle. You don't want any surfactants in it. Ammonia and water. I think most agree chelating agents are ok.

Hi all,

catfishchaos wrote:I have no plants in the tank, I was looking into getting doradids and plecos that required to much flow for plants or are simply to destructive and the tank does not have sufficient space between the canopy and the water level to allow for floating plants.

You can always have plants like Ferns and Anubias fixed to structure (wood etc), most of these plants actually do better in high flow. Another option is to drop the water level a few inches.

catfishchaos wrote:I can see doing well that I like is Anubias gracillis however its not south american and that wouldn't let me sleep at night so does anybody now a south american plant that doesn't need aqua soil?

There aren't any ferns or Aroids commercially available that are S. American, but there are plants in South America that fill the same niches as the commercially available (African and Asian) Bolbitis heudelotii, Microsorum pteropus, Anubias spp & Bucephalandra spp.

Ceratopteris pteroides, Pistia stratiotes, Salvinia spp. and Limnobium laevigatum are all S. American.

I wouldn't try and keep any fish with a high oxygen demand in a tank without plants (ideally plants with access to atmospheric gases), and/or a wet and dry trickle filter.

If you are really good at water management you can get away with over-stocking and bare tanks etc. but it makes it much more difficult.

catfishchaos wrote:As for quarantine I have nothing planned, I truthfully don't have the space to quarantine them

Quarantine really is an essential.

cheers Darrel

Thanks guys!

I am aware how essential quarantine is and have always been ashamed that its something I've had difficulty providing, Its just not something can change until I have more space than my current bedroom.

Alright so the current plan has changed ever so slightly.. Fish are coming in Friday night so I will leave school tomorrow night because of illness *cough* at which point I will pickup a mesh breeder box and some Ammonia without surfacants in it, I well remove the artillery into the breeder box in the tank and then I will proceed to ad 5 mils to the 55 gallon, increase the temp to 84 F then come friday morning test everything, do a 25% water change, lower temps, add the Rummynose and then go ahead and add the Loricaria later on that day. Does this seem like a good game-plan?

Regards
James

While Darrel will not keep high O demand fish in an unplanted bare bottom tank, I feel compelled to note that I have been keeping and spawning zebra plecos in a bare bottom tank since 2006. I have gotten between 400 and 500 fry from them since then, I have lost track. I also have l173b, L236, L450 and H. contradens in unplanted, tanks although some of these have a thin layer of sand. I keep these tanks all in the 82 -86F range. I have more than adequate surface agitation in all these tanks.

However, the above does not imply that Darrel's approach is incorrect or not good in any way. It's just in this hobby there is more than one way to skin a catCfish) And, without doubt, planted tanks have a greater margin of error built in. I know because at my peak I had 11 of them. Of course I never have algae issues in my pleco tanks. And when pressed to get a new tank up fast and not having the bio-farm running, my fallback is always to chuck a lot of my excess plants into such a tank, even it they won't remain there longer term.

If I had any kicking around I toss them in but I think the sword in with the banjos have finally rooted, I will look into ordering some Anubias or maybe even some Vesicularia dubyana (its from south america ). I understand the functionality of bare bottom tanks but I struggle with the concept and aesthetics. I try to keep things as close to the wild as I can and bare bottoms don't get much further from that.

Thats actually my entire fish keeping philosophy: Nature is their home so do your best to make them feel at home.

Any comments on the game plan?

Hi all,

TwoTankAmin wrote:While Darrel will not keep high O demand fish in an unplanted bare bottom tank, I feel compelled to note that I have been keeping and spawning zebra plecos in a bare bottom tank since 2006.........However, the above does not imply that Darrel's approach is incorrect or not good in any way. It's just in this hobby there is more than one way to skin a catCfish) And, without doubt, planted tanks have a greater margin of error built in. I know because at my peak I had 11 of them. Of course I never have algae issues in my pleco tanks. And when pressed to get a new tank up fast and not having the bio-farm running, my fallback is always to chuck a lot of my excess plants into such a tank, even it they won't remain there longer term.

I agree, it is very much "horses for courses".

I'm admitting to being a pretty shoddy fish keeper, I think I've got better in the last few years, but I know I don't see the things that other people (like TTA) can see. Part of my problem is that some of my tanks are in the lab. at work, and they have extended periods where I can't maintain them on a regular basis.

It was only when I met the late Bob Marklew ("macvsog23") (http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=32167) that I began to appreciate just how skilled some fish keepers/breeders are, and the attention to detail that they have.

cheers Darrel

Alright so no comments on the game plan?

more comments= less nervous

I'm going to start pulling rummies I think, cant find a breeder box so I'm going to sink a perware with some holes in it...

Apparently T_u_p makes a green smiley face

Edit: Unforeseen situation, Ammonia test is kaput I think I'll just re-add the rummy nose and do a 50/50 filter sponge swap (each filter has 4 sponges so I will be switching 2 from each).

I just love the amount of order and calmness in my life

@catfishchaos you asked;

I might have access to safe start but I already have seachem stability handy, would this suffice

Am slow as usual, sorry. My answer to this question is always this. Whether one believes it is the bacteria or the archaea which convert ammonia to nitrite, most agree the Nitrospira bacteria are the only microorganisms which convert nitrite to nitrate in aquariums. It was recently discovered that some of them are also capable of converting the ammonia all the way to nitrate on their own. Whatever one chooses to believe are the dominant nitrifiers in tanks, or whatever combination of them for that matter, they all share one thing in common. They do not form spores as a means of reproduction. Therefore to reproduce them requires starting with live bacteria, not spores.

Then consider what SeaChen states about Stability:

Q: Bio-spira has to remain refrigerated in order for the bacteria to survive. Why does Stability not need refrigeration? If there's living bacteria in the solution, how do they stay alive for so long? Or is there something else besides bacteria in the product altogether?

A: The bacteria in Stability are alive but not active. They exist in a spore form. They can withstand extreme temperatures and do not require food to survive. When you add them to your aquarium they become active due to dilution.

The bacterias that require refrigeration are active. Refrigerating them slows down their life cycle and they require less food when cold. Because they are active they do require food, and that is packaged with them. They also will not survive extreme heat or cold and will die when they run out of food.

from http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Stability.html

So when I am asked which of the two opposing points of view I believe, it is not SeaChem's. You can make your own decision based on the current state of science on the various microorganisms. But I have never been able to find anything in the scientific literature so far which suggest that any nitrifying organisms found in either sw or fw tanks form spores. SeaChem is selling spores.

Here is a more interesting fact in this pdf download from SeaChem's site http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams ... ration.pdf
the second paragraph states:

Three genera of bacteria, omnipresent in the environment, can usually establish themselves in the aquarium and metabolize the inorganic nitrogen compounds that would otherwise accumulate there: Nitrosomonas, Nitrobacter, and Thiobacillus. Nitrosomonas convert aquarium ammonia to nitrite, which Nitrobacter convert to nitrate, which Thiobacillus and other denitrifying genera anaerobically convert to nitrogen gas.

Nitrosomonas do not form spores, Nitrobacter are not the correct NOB but they do not form spores. Nitrospira have been shown to be the ones which predomonate in low nitrite level environments such as aquariums, and they also do not form spores. What I find re the Thiobacillus is they do not form spores either.

Generalities about the Thiobacillus Genus1, 2, 3, 4
from http://web.mst.edu/~microbio/bio221_199 ... edius.html
More interesting is this The genus Thiobacillus
LA Robertson, JG Kuenen - The prokaryotes, 2006 - Springer
[size=85]https://static-content.springe ... png[/size]
Considering the second reference above and how old that SeaChem pdf is, are the Stability spores they think are Thiobacillus actually that?

One final note. I cannot find any support for SeaChems claims for Stability save their own in-house research which is unpublished as far as I can tell. So I leave it to others to explain what I may have missed here which would indicate Stability should be an additive of choice to aid with establishing nitrification in their aquarium. Hopefully, I think I have provided a decent source of info to be able to make an informed decision. However, I always stand ready to be re-educated when I am wrong in my understanding of things.