PlanetCatfish.com

Hi,
I got a bag of from Colombia. Among those there was 7-8 corydoras that are different.
Looking at Cat-eLog, I found them most similar to Corydoras . I do not see any other cory that will show this pattern (round snout, clear fins, body marking).
Here are some pictures from the unknown: Thanks for the help!
Francois

Looking at listing more carefully, I found Corydoras sp to be very similar.
(data from http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showcat.php/cat/6 and planetcatfish) should come from Rio Madre de Dios and from map data this system is at the border from Peru and Bolivia, whereas Corydoras sp should come from Venezuela so much closer from the localization of , which should come the Meta river system. This supposed CW019 came along in an order of melanotaenia from Colombia, that's make CW019 the most likely answer, unless there is other corys that ressemble these two...
Still from l-wese website, is from elegans group 4&5 (http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showp ... 1964/cat/6) and is from aeneus group 7 (http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showp ... 1967/cat/6). I must admit, I am still not sure about what distinguish these two group. Maybe aeneus group are taller body, I should go back to my german school books...
Anybody to confirm this identification?
Cheers,
francois

Hello Francois,

I can understand your confusion, it's sometimes difficult to differentiate on pictures these two species groups.
There are small differences with respect to eye position (rather low in elegans group) and snout morphology (pointing more towards the front instead of down), these small differences are difficult to describe and sometimes even more difficult to see in the pictures.

One more criterion which does not always help but is very easy to see is the dorsal fin and body pattern.
As per my knowledge there is no member of the aeneus group with a (dark) fin pattern, the fins are only more or less uniformly coloured with the colour eventually fading in some direction whereas in the elegans group you can often find - mostly in males and in the dorsal fin - some dark stripes or similar pattern.
Likewise in the aeneus group you will only find big blotches, stripes and eventuall a fluorescent stripe but never any small (well defined) spots, thin dark lines or reticulated pattern.
The problem is that there are also members of the elegans group which have a pattern that would be typical for aeneus group (possibly due to mimikry).

As you already mentioned CW097 (and CW097) are from the wrong region.
Patternwise CW019 is very similar, a member of the elegans group with a pattern you could also find in the aeneus group...
From what I can see in the pictures your corys belong to the aeneus group, CW026 is a member of from Venezuela which looks also somehow similar but I think that you have a variant of Corydoras aeneus from Colombia without any C or CW number and which is possibly sympatric with CW019.

Cheers,

@kamas88
Thanks for your explanation. I like the group subdivision. It helps a lot for identification in refining the search efficiently without having to go through all cory pictures.

At first, I also thought it may be some kind of but on top of the body pattern, there is this eyebrows like a line starting from the eye toward the back. It really look identical to Corydoras .
You can see the eyebrows on the first picture from above (it is more obvious from the two cory on left):
or on this one, took with the cory in their tank, with more normal color than in a box, where they tend to fade due to stress. Doesn't it look like , mimicry or identity?
I do not have a very long experience in cory like some of the people here do. I have seen c.aeneus with different patterns, with shoulder more brown/red/orange or plain grey, with a black dot more oval or more conical, sometime a little fuzzy, sometime a little more sharp. Here the black spot looks like a seismograph shape (with the top of the plate been darker, and there is the eyebrows, which I do not recall havong seen in aeneus. But I could be wrong...

Cheers,
Francois

Hello Francois,

this "eyebrow" would be indeed more typical for elegans group than for aeneus group.
It's certainly also an option that you have two mimetic species from both the groups.

Best for ID'ing is a exactly lateral picture with natural snout position (not squeezed at the glass,...).

Another characteristic that I have not mentioned is the serration of the pectoral spine. In the aeneus group it's rather weak like with the typical short snouted species. In the elegans group you have usually a much stronger serration rather like in the acutus group (a bit less pronounced though).
But this might be only helpful in a direct comparison.

Cheers,

Here are two views from the same pictures. There is some degree of dark pattern (serration) on pectoral fins but not on pelvic ones.
Another picture with flash o. It is like if he has some kind of hair (or serration?) on first ray of pectoral fin. For the nose they did not let me take any better picture than the previous ones... Always moving around when the camera is coming close! Will try again later...

Another attempt to picture their nose.
This one knew why the camera came close and was shy or playful... Seen the smile on this one, they must be very bright and playful corys! But they all are, so it may not help for identification... ;) I still believe this previous picture taken into my tank looks fairly identical to the one on the clog page.

Link to clog
Ok if none of them have the right angle for profiling them...
I am still not too sure of what I should look at on nose to distinguish aeneus from elegans group. Nose pictures inside each group seem heterogenous.
Anyway more nose picture to come...

More noses... At least the eyebrows seen on my corys (all pictures above) point toward CW019. So if it is not the exact Corydoras sp CW019, would it be that wrong to call them Corydoras cf CW019 ?
Maybe until anf if they want to breed and show fry color pattern which look distinct (as seen in clog page) for compare to regular aeneus.

Francois

Hi,

I was hoping that Ian will say some words about this, I think he kept CW019 already...

The upper one looks more like a member of aeneus group, the snout is rounder and the eye position seems to be above the line of the junction of the body scutes:



Some of the others seem really to be CW019 with the eyes slightly below the junction of the body scutes.
However, I'm not 100% sure, it's sometime tricky with pics...

The picture with the pectoral spine is not 100% sharp, it looks more that this is the first brached soft ray and its segments.

Cheers,

Hello,
I had to move these possible CW019 to make some space for cory fries from different species.
I put them in a tank which I hope will be more appropriate for a spawn!
Some more picture:
All 8 cory with some degree of eyebrows: Two views of Corydoras aeneus albino and possible CW019 (with aeneus slightly more rounded than the other one): Out of the three or four things that will point toward or that are indicative of elegans group:
Eyebrows : yes
Pectoral spin serration : unconclusive or no
Longer nose : yes
Eye position versus scute junction : I do not know... Looking at them in the tank, I would rather say below but for the aeneus I have here: eyes seem very slightly above body scute junction for the slender fish or on the same line for the ones more on the obese side...

From what I undertand, eyebrows and snout would be a landmark of elegans group. Serration and low eye position would point to elegans if present.

From this I suppose I can call them Corydoras sp CW019 without to much doubt or should I still label them as Corydoras cf CW019 ?

Cheers,
Francois

Hi,

from above they look all rather like members of aeneus group in my eyes.
Several of the above mentioned criteria are just my personal ones based on my personal observation and there is certainly no proof that this must apply to all species of these lineages. For instance the pectoral spine is not shown in all the species descriptions, but in general known to be an important criterion, especially for lineages 1, 8 & 9.
Also the "typical patterns" of body and fins could prove to be only valid for most of the species of these lineages.

Body proportions are certainly more relevant than the pattern. When issuing CW019 code Ian Fuller mentioned already that there is a very similar member of aeneus group, this is what you most probably have.
Breed them and I would expect that also the fry pattern will confirm this...

Either it is CW019 (I don't think so) or it is a completely different form from the aeneus group.
In both cases afaik "cf." is not the right expression because this would indicate that there are some (minor) differences to the nominal species/form but it might still be the same species/from.
"aff." would fit a bit better as this is used if you are convinced that this is a different species. However, I guess its use is only "defined" for described species, the taxonomic status of C(W) numbers is not really defined in most cases.

But I also have to admit if I look at the Corydoras shown at CW on the species page of CW019 they also look close to aeneus group or at least I would have some doubts only by looking at the pics from Ian. But he has the advantage to have seen them alive which is always better.
So I cannot really tell you more. Hopefully Ian can comment more on this...

Cheers,