New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they? SPAWNED!

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bekateen
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Okay, I spend way too much time staring at my fish. Looking at some of my woodgrained individuals, I can see at least two who have developed small light colored patches in the middle of those brown U shaped subdorsal saddles. None have the angularity of the specimen from the Cano Guanapalo, but the presence of the breaks in the brown area tell me that these may mature with time. I know I didn't see any when I first bought them.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Shane »

Here is the iheringi holotype. Compare to Roman's photo.
-Shane
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Thanks Shane! :-)

I tried to bring out the pigmentation subtleties (not so much the colors but the boundaries of the colors) and I'm juxtaposing it against Roman's photo and the B&W holotype pic from the Gomes paper, along with the Meta fish and mine.

Hopefully this is informative.

Cheers, Eric
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My woodgrained Microglanis.png
Microglanis from the Meta drainage, northeastern Colombia.png
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Shane »

Wow, awesome job!
Two features that jumped out at me looking at the holotype and Roman's fish.
The saddle over the nape does not extend past the mid point of the dorsal fin and is straight, not rounded. The saddle at the caudal peduncle lacks the dorsal lateral light colored marking.
To my eye, and this is based on single photos, pics 1 and 2 are possibly the same sp. Pic 3 is unique. Holotype matches quite closely with Roman's photo.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Thanks Shane. Yes I agree. One thing clearly visible on the type specimen, on Roman's specimen and on the fish in fig 3 is this: On the dark saddle on the caudal peduncle, there is clearly a superdense pigmented line right along the tail base, with a slightly lighter pigmentation more anteriorly in the same dark band. That is a common trait in several Microglanis species, but I don't see it on my specimens (my fish, both kinds, seem to be homogeneously colored in that caudal saddle).

On a whim, I did two things today.
  • First, I identified a Venezuelan Ichthyologist named Dr. Hector Lopez teaching at a university in Caracas, not too far from Lake Valencia, and I emailed him to see if he could be of help. I know the situation in Venezuela is not great now, but what the heck? Might as well try.
  • Second, I picked out one of my very fat female wood-grained fish and took photos in front of a window for natural lighting, both with and without the overhead fluorecent lighting on.

This female is 50 mm SL. Note that this fish has the pale blemish in the middle of the subdorsal saddle. She also has a brown bridge connecting the subadipose and caudal saddles; I didn't recall having any fish with that feature, but going back to the first post in this thread, I see this picture (fourth picture below). Comparing the contours of the color patterns on this fat female and that fish at time of purchase, it's appears that the fat female in this post is the same fish as in that first photograph! If that's true, then her color pattern really did change with growth (no surprise I suppose, but it's cool to observe)... I need to go back and look at the other specimens. And wow, what a difference food makes! :-D

One other thing about her is that beside the rotund belly, which would indicate female, her genital area surrounding the genital papilla is swollen like a balloon (circled in fifth photo below), in the same way that I observed on my Panaqolus species - there's a visible bump of about 4mm diameter and 1mm height around the genital papilla. I haven't checked the males yet, but I doubt they have that swelling.

Also, keep in mind that these woodgrained fish are my small fish. All the woodgrained fish are about the same size. The yellow-bodied fish were as large as 65mm when I purchased them. I don't know if they've grown since, but maybe? Regarding the possibility that the yellow fish are males and these woodgrained fish are all females, I have woodgrained fish that are thin. That in itself doesn't say much, so I'm waiting to see if any yellow fish plump out like this. So far, one or two of the larger yellow fish are slightly rounded more than others, but none so rotund as these little fish. So the sex dimorphism vs two species is not fully settled yet in my mind.

Cheers, Eric
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Natural light plus fluorescent light
Natural light plus fluorescent light
Natural light plus fluorescent light
Natural light plus fluorescent light
Natural light only
Natural light only
From https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=327041#p327041
From https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=327041#p327041
Area around genital papilla swollen. Does this make my butt look fat? :-D
Area around genital papilla swollen. Does this make my butt look fat? :-D
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by TalenT »

Interesting thread! I've had several Microglanis sp. through the years. The latest one I had was one of the "woodgrained" ones. I started a thread about it back in 2012:
viewtopic.php?p=253495#p253495
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

TalenT wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 22:19 Interesting thread! I've had several Microglanis sp. through the years. The latest one I had was one of the "woodgrained" ones. I started a thread about it back in 2012:
viewtopic.php?p=253495#p253495
Thanks for sharing! Your fish is a FATTY! =)) :romance-heartbeating:

For everyone else's convenience, here's your image link: http://imgur.com/a/WmbW0

As for its ID, I see a large pale break in the subdorsal dark saddle and I see the posterior edge of that saddle projecting backwards. Your fish very looks something like the Caño Guanapalo specimen I showed earlier in this thread (http://repository.humboldt.org.co/bitst ... /37378.JPG). The split subdorsal saddle has some similarity to , but from the limited illustrations we have of M. poecilus, the split subdorsal saddle of M. poecilus does not reunite near the pectoral fin, so I don't think yours is that.

In your original post, I see Marc van Arc proposed . From a color pattern perspective, that is a much better match to yours than is M. poecilus, but M. cottoides is from coastal southern Brazil. No way that's the same species.

Several other species have a similarly split and angled subdorsal saddle, but again, none of these have the right distribution if your fish came from the most common source in Colombia. Also, a number of these could easily be excluded due to other color pattern features:










Mees wrote that looked a lot like M. poecilus, but his drawing of secundus looks like what we currently call from Colombia.

P.S., Your pictures are really informative. Please don't let them get lost or if imgur ever closes.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by TalenT »

Thanks for your reply Eric.
Yeah he was a fatty, always first to the food :-p . I traded him in a couple of years ago, at a very trusted LFS.
Feel free to download the photos off imgur if you need them for reference. I have the original photos stored on a HD too, so i guess they are as safe as they can be :D.

I liked the look of that catfish, he was almost like a "Nano-Cephalosilurus", very cool. b-)
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Ugh. #-O Stare at your fish long enough, and you can convince yourself of anything.

Today I tried to examine the bigger bumblebees, the ones with solid yellow/pink base color. They are thickening up, but none - None! - are fat like the little woodgrained fish. And of the little woodgrained fish, three are huge (like the one pictured above) and the (two which aren't huge) are sort of intermediate colored between the woodgrained females and the yellow fish (darker body than yellow fish - almost an antique bronze, but much lighter than the females and no "wood grain"). That leads me to believe either 1) if these are a different species, then these aren't in condition yet (or their females don't get bulbous, although I doubt that), or 2) they are all one species and the females are smaller, fatter, and darker than the males.

Now I'm leaning more towards the latter. Partly it's because there are no fat yellow fish, but also during the time the fish were in holding containers, one of the fat woodgrained females faded to a yellow color with a few spots. That speaks a lot to me towards them all being one species. So on a whim I combined all the fish into one tank. I'll see if they spawn after being reunited, and if they don't, I'll separate them again.

Also, I noticed that one fish continues to have a subcutaneous lump (parasite, I suspect), even after several rounds of treatment with both Paraguard and PraziPro. Based on its location (see marked photo), I suspect this is the type of parasite that needs a bird for a second host, so I don't think this will spread to the other fish.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Highlight of the day was that I found my missing bumblebee! :-BD It must be my smallest specimen and apparently it was able to go up the outflow of my Aqueon HOB filter. I discovered the little guy darting around beneath the filter cartridge. That's really weird because I've checked in there at least twice before, and I didn't see it on any of the previous inspections! =))

Here's the fish, found it inside my Aqueon HOB filter. In spite of being missing for at least a month, if not two to three months, this fish is certainly not underfed! :))
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Here is a history of the 18 fish, and a breakdown of the traits I've been looking at to figure out if they're one or two species.

At the very end of the video, I noticed that one or two of the wood-grained fish (although, truly, they were more spotted than wood-grained) females had really washed out in color. That makes me think that they are the females and that the large yellow fish are the males.
Fat small female has faded to a yellow/pink color with sparse spots. Does this confirm they are one species?
Fat small female has faded to a yellow/pink color with sparse spots. Does this confirm they are one species?
I guess until I get genetic testing, for now I'll suspect they may be one species.

Cheers, Eric

My Microglanis aff. iheringi: A 3-Month Update

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Shane »

Really awesome video! If it does turn out that the coloration and size differences are sexual dimorphism identifying Microglanis spp just got a lot more difficult. I know there have been several recent descriptions of Microglanis spp from Brazil. I wonder if any of them mention sexual dimorphism?
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Thanks Shane.
Shane wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 13:01I know there have been several recent descriptions of Microglanis spp from Brazil. I wonder if any of them mention sexual dimorphism?
-Shane
I've read those papers, and the only references I recall to sexual dimorphism are girth and a difference in genital papilla shape, with males having a conical g.p., and females having a truncated papilla with a flap on the end. I recall that being .

Looking back though, I see this for : adult males to be about 23 mm SL and females to be about 25 mm SL. That would be the opposite of my fish.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

One behavioral observation I'll make about all of these Microglanis I have: I've united them all in a single 10 gal standard dimension 10 gal tank, with a moderately strong powerhead at one end pointing to the other end, set up as shown below.

tank setup.png

During daytime, all of the Microglanis are hiding (duh!), either in small pleco caves (one fish per cave) or crammed 2-4 together inside of open-ended bamboo pipes, or between closely-spaced bamboo pipes. Nearly 100% of the fish are facing the same direction (whether they are in pipes, between pipes, or in caves), and that direction is "facing towards the current" as shown in drawing. What I can't see are the fish hiding among the leaves or under the sponge filter, which I know some are. The few times I've seen those fish, they are more helter-skelter in their arrangement, which makes sense since the water currents are really disrupted around the filter.

As for my efforts to reach out to Venezuelan scientists, I've made contact with Dr. Francisco Provenzano-Rizzi, who used to be in Caracas, Venezuela at the same department as Hector Lopez, but now is in Spain. Coincidentally, Francisco helped describe , so hopefully I've met just the right person who might have more knowledge. :-)

Finally, although I know pectoral fin spines are not fully reliable for taxonomy, I've synchronized the captions for all Microglanis species which have pectoral fin spine drawings/pictures. They can be searched collectively as "Pectoral fin spine, dorsal view." Here: https://www.planetcatfish.com/common/ca ... orsal+view.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Good news and bad news today.

Good: Today I received a response from Dr. Provenzano-Rizzi, one of the Venezuelan scientists I contacted.

Bad: He says the rivers are heavily contaminated today, and he doubts any Microglanis would be found there anymore, unless some isolated areas have managed to avoid contamination.

Dr. Provenzano-Rizzi stated it is his belief that the rio Turmero and rio Tuy Microglanis are different from the Colombian specimens which currently are considered M. iheringi. He offered to contact the Caracas museum to see if they have any preserved specimens on file for me, to get photos. Let's hope they do.

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Here's another twist in the pants: Over the last couple of months, I've been going systematically through ichthyofauna surveys... okay, not systematically at all... rather, as I can find them... to find photos of Microglanis with catch location information records. This has produced quite a few photos, several reproduced earlier in this thread and two others added to CLOG database as unique CLOG entries. Well here's another new one: . It was reported as Microglanis aff. iheringi from the Rio Las Piedras, Madre de Dios basin, Peru, by Carvalho et al. (2012) Check List, 8(5): 973-1019. I think this looks like "some" of the Colombian fish we've already seen. But the Madre de Dios is VERY far away from the Orinoco drainage.

MUSM 36948 38 mm SL, Rio Las Piedras, Madre de Dios basin, Peru
MUSM 36948 38 mm SL, Rio Las Piedras, Madre de Dios basin, Peru

IMHO, this Madre de Dios fish bears some similarity to (see drawing of M. zonatus below), described from the Rio Morona, Maranon, which isn't close at all to the Madre de Dios.

Microglanis zonatus, from original  description
Microglanis zonatus, from original description
  1. The subdorsal dark bar has a pale break in the center, dividing the bar into an anterior (relatively straight) half and a posterior chevron-shaped half.
  2. The Y-shaped subadipose dark bar is relatively narrow at its base and the antero-dorsal branch occurs at about the same location.
  3. The caudal dark bar also as a Y shape to it, as compared to the H- or X- shaped bars seen in so many other iheringi-like species, making only one point of termination ventrally vs. two points dorsally.
  4. In the drawing, the speckling shown in the pale areas of the center and posterior of the body are, I would infer, an artistic attempt to depict what I've described in my fish as heavily spotted or wood-grained color texturing in pale areas of the body, which is plainly visible in the Madre de Dios specimen above.
However, the original description of M. zonatus includes a drawing depicting the tail margin as intact and rounded, not emarginate, bilobed, or forked as in so many other Microglanis. That said, I've never seen a photo of any M. zonatus, and I know that often times the tail fins of wild caught fish are frayed or torn, thus making an accurate description of a tail margin impossible from only one specimen as in the case of M. zonatus. Since so many other Microglanis have emarginate, bilobed or forked tails, is it possible that the original description of M. zonatus is in error to indicate the tail is rounded? For evidence, I suggest we look closely at the pigmentation depicted on the tail: Although the tail is drawn with a rounded margin, the dark pigmentation is bilobed. (I need one of those disbelief memes right now) /:) :-\

Just more fun muddying the waters.

Cheers, Eric

EDIT: This Madre de Dios specimen also resembles a group of beautiful specimens collected by Ian Fuller in the Madre de Dios a couple of years ago. Those fish are illustrated on the Go Wild Peru Facebook page. Gorgeous!
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Shane »

Keep muddying the waters. There is more info on this genus in this thread than the hobby has ever had access to.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Unrelated to my fish, but totally related to my efforts to completely populate all described species of Microglanis with at least one photo or drawing, I've finally tracked down pics of . That's the last described species in need of illustration! :-)

Now I just need to get permission to use the x-ray pics (different ownership than the pics available) which excellently show its pectoral spine serrations and the oddity that M. ater has more rays in the anal fin than other species.

Plus, more local pics of a couple more Microglanis sp. should be coming soon, including what appears to be a documented conspecific of what we called Microglanis sp`rio_pozuzo_ii`; however, now it's renamed due to its more broad distribution.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Today I'm going off topic again, but not really since this thread is about figuring out which Microglanis I have, and to do that I have to figure out which Microglanis exist, where they are, and what they look like. I found myself today coming back to . It's one of those species described from the northern South American rivers along the Atlantic, but as with , it's also been reported in areas further west, even though that's so far afield from its type locality. And it stuns me a but that more than a few writers have stated that M. secundus basically looks like M. poecilus, when in my judgment the drawing of M. secundus from the original description looks nothing like M. poecilus but rather more like what we in the hobby get as these days.

Why do I bring this up? Because today I found the only photos I've come upon of M. secundus. The photo is crappy because (a) it's of a preserved old museum specimen and (b) the specimen is not well posed for the photo. But even so, you can see the subdorsal dark bar is like that in the original drawing and it's like that of M. iheringi. It is not split like the dark mark of M. poecilus.

Microglanis secundus museum photo
Microglanis secundus museum photo
Microglanis secundus holotype drawing
Microglanis secundus holotype drawing
Microglanis iheringi from Colombia
Microglanis iheringi from Colombia

Seriously, these need someone to troll the type material and generate what I'll call pattern profiles for them. By that I mean narratives of the stereotypical markings from species to species based on the type material.

As a true side-track, I found an article today which is a natural history analysis of . There is some fascinating conclusions in this paper, such as the authors predict a natural lifespan of 3 years and the fish may grow only 10 mm/year. Also, they conclude that breeding is found in 50% of adults 2/3 max SL.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Shane »

The entry in the Cat-elog for M. secundus in the Catatumbo is a mistake that needs to be fixed. I am sure it is based on a mistaken identification in Galvis et al's peces del Catatumbo. As you can see at a glance, the fish they found is not secundus.

So many "Fishes of" books and papers are riddled with mistaken identifications because the authors simply can not have expertise on every genera they encounter.

Also note that two distinct spp are shown. Is the Microglanis in the Catatumbo the fish in the line drawing or the photo? I can only guess that the line drawing is correct and the photo is simply of a Microglanis they found at an exporter in Bogota. Note the opposite patterns on the paired fins. The drawing shows dark fins with light edges. The photo shows a fish with dark fins that lighten near the body.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Shane wrote: 04 Jan 2021, 12:21 The entry in the Cat-elog for M. secundus in the Catatumbo is a mistake that needs to be fixed. I am sure it is based on a mistaken identification in Galvis et al's peces del Catatumbo. As you can see at a glance, the fish they found is not secundus.

So many "Fishes of" books and papers are riddled with mistaken identifications because the authors simply can not have expertise on every genera they encounter.

Also note that two distinct spp are shown. Is the Microglanis in the Catatumbo the fish in the line drawing or the photo? I can only guess that the line drawing is correct and the photo is simply of a Microglanis they found at an exporter in Bogota. Note the opposite patterns on the paired fins. The drawing shows dark fins with light edges. The photo shows a fish with dark fins that lighten near the body.
-Shane
Indeed, on that I agree with you. I think that happens often, where (as I've also been guilty of in this thread at different times) investigators try to identify fish they find based only on the existing species names, rather than being more open to the idea of their fish being a different species (not to say I advocate as a splitter; I tend to be a lumper myself). For example, here's a report of Microglanis cf. secundus in the Rio Trombetas, which I suspect is a misidentification (at least they had the wherewithall to use "cf"):
Ferreira, E. J. G. (1993). Composição, distribuição e aspectos ecológicos da ictiofauna de um trecho do rio Trombetas, na área de influência da futura UHE Cachoeira Porteira, Estado do Pará, Brasil. Acta Amazonica, 23, suppl. 1, 1-89. wrote:Tabela 11. Lista das especies exclusivas das regioes a montante da cachoeira Porteira (Rio Trombetas drainage): Microglanis cf. secundus
Perhaps unfortunately, these Rio Trombetas specimens are now accepted by at least some authors as M. secundus sensu stricto, as revealed in subsequent publications (e.g., Mori & Shibatta. 2006. Zootaxa, 1302, 31-42). I suppose, in that example, if the fish can just get over the mountains from Guyana, they might drop down into the Trombetas. :)) While I know there have been papers written to explain why fish discovered in Guyana and Suriname should be expected to be present also in some Amazonian areas of Colombia and Brazil, I struggle to imagine that many of these applicable species have remained unified genetically over history.

I also suspect, and I've mentioned it earlier in this thread, that this type of misidentification you describe (and the consequences of it in terms of future investigators simply taking a past author's word for an ID) applies to also.
Microglanis poecilus collection records
Microglanis poecilus collection records

As to your recognition that the illustrations in Galvis et al.'s paper are mismatched and incorrectly ID'd, yes I think so too. In fact, I'd go farther and propose that neither image in Galvis et al. shows M. secundus based on Mees' original drawing. First, here again are the photo and drawing of "Microglanis secundus" from the Galviset al. paper; both images are retouched here for details. Next, I'll add the photo, just a few pages later in the same book, of .
Microglanis secundus, photo page 62 (retouched)
Microglanis secundus, photo page 62 (retouched)
Microglanis secundus, drawing page 62 (retouched)
Microglanis secundus, drawing page 62 (retouched)
Batrochoglanis acanthochiroides, photo page 68
Batrochoglanis acanthochiroides, photo page 68
Notice the dark color fin markings on B. acanthochiroides - they almost exactly match the Galvis et al. drawing of M. secundus. Also notable is that the drawing of B. acanthochiroides on page 68 (which I did not reproduce here) bears no resemblance at all to the color pattern shown in the photo of B. acanthochiroides... Perhaps the M. secundus drawing is mismatched and belongs with B. acanthochiroides? If that is the case, then what kind of fish is the "M. secundus" photo?

Shane, you noted that the drawing shows a fish whose paired fins have a hyaline margin and that the photo doesn't show that. Myself, I'm inclined to take that with a grain of salt based on this single photo, since at least the pectoral fins in the photo are evidently damaged (perhaps not the pelvics); any hyaline margin might easily be lost, leaving the impression that the fins are dark to the margins. Conversely, what I see as most different between the photo and the drawing is the fact that in the photo, the tail is almost entirely hyaline but the drawing shows a very dark marked tail; while I've found a lot of variation in the tail color pattern in my Microglanis, that picture seems extreme. But perhaps the tail pigmentation is a growth-dependent trait (I know my Microglanis have developed more tail pigmentation just since I've had them, as is evident in my videos): Supporting that possibility, the museum specimens which Galvis has on file have been reexamined and identified as juvenile B. acanthochiroides: Here is an excerpt from a more recent paper on the Fishes of the Catatumbo:
Ortega-Lara, A., Lasso-Alcalá, O. M., Lasso, C. A., de Pasquier, G. A., & Bogotá-Gregory, J. D. (2012). Peces de la cuenca del río Catatumbo, cuenca del Lago de Maracaibo, Colombia y Venezuela. Biota Colombiana, 13(1), 71-98. wrote:On the other hand, the records of Microglanis secundus are from a juvenile specimen of Batrochoglanis acanthochiroides (Ortega-Lara obs per.)...
Perhaps significantly, this paper reported NO Microglanis in the Catatumbo drainage. While I would not be surprised to find Microglanis in the Catatumbo drainage, for now I have no references to document them there.

All the above discussion aside (about the absence of M. secundus from the Catatumbo drainage), I'd like return to the point of my previous post, and that is this: Microglanis secundus bears no resemblance to M. poecilus, but rather it bears some resemblance to M. iheringi, both the true M. iheringi and to the Colombian "M. iheringi" (although how close cannot be reliably estimated due to the poor quality of specimens of both M. secundus and of true M. iheringi).
Shane wrote: 04 Jan 2021, 12:21The entry in the Cat-elog for M. secundus in the Catatumbo is a mistake that needs to be fixed.
Done. Thanks.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

So I put some of my stimulus money to use today. Can't yet say it was "good use" but maybe. Twenty six new Microglanis from same source as my first groups, although this is a different shipment. These fish are small too. Whereas the first 18 fish were 45-65mm SL at purchase, these 26 fish are 25-35mm SL.

A lot more variation in the color patterns too, although all of them appear to be variants of the iheringi-like body plan. Some of the variation is shown below. My hope is that these variations will result in adults that look different from each other. My worst-case scenario is that much of this variation is just a combination of stress fading (because they're at a fish store) and ontogenetic maturation, meaning they'll grow into their colors and change exclusively into the typical adult colors I have already.

With their diminutive size, I know some species are reportedly this small, so maybe they are something really different. However, I expect they are just juveniles and that they'll grow to match my original fish in size.

Why did I buy so many? (1) at the shop, even though I got to select my fish from the holding tank, I did have to make some snap judgements. I thought it was better to get fish than skip them and miss something different. (2) if there is a different type in here, I wanted to increase my odds of getting more than one of it.

Well, now I hope for the best and wait. :YMDAYDREAM:
Cheers, Eric
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20210108_173458.jpg
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Polish_20210108_190053539.jpg
Polish_20210108_190021767.jpg
Polish_20210108_185947691.jpg
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

If you don't want to see one fish at a time, here they are together.
Polish_20210108_190021767.jpg
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Shane »

Keep the info coming Eric. I am betting you now have the largest collection of this genus outside the wild!
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Shane wrote: 10 Jan 2021, 18:52Keep the info coming Eric.
Thanks Shane, will do. My biggest disappointments are
  1. that I cannot ascertain better information on locality, beyond "Colombia" (I've contacted the wholesaler to see if they'll connect me directly with the exporter, but we'll have to wait to see if that bears fruit.), and
  2. that all of the fish I'm getting appear to be iheringi-like, although some of these babies, assuming they keep their broken patterns into adulthood, may prove to be more like or even in appearance (I'm saying not saying mine are either of those, but that they may share a similar color patterning).
What I'd really like to get my hands on are fish like the following, to get some variation beyond just the shape of the subdorsal saddle. But all the exports I'm seeing are coming out of Colombia, so... I get what I get:
Shane wrote: 10 Jan 2021, 18:52I am betting you now have the largest collection of this genus outside the wild!
Whaaaat? Doesn't everyone keep 44 bumblebees? =))

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Total aside to the focus of this thread:

Grenand, P., Chapuis, J., Cognat, A., Cristinoi, A., Davy, D., Grenand, F., Jégu, M., Keith, P., Martin, E., Nemo, F., Pagezy, H., & P.Y. Le Bail. (2015). Revision of vernacular names for the freshwater fish of French Guiana. Cybium, 39(4): 279-300.
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01254935/

According to this paper, the local Wayãpi name for in French Guiana is "yawanukunuku sili."

... Write that on a USFWS import eDec and see how they deal with it. It's no wonder we don't get more imported for the hobby. :))

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

For a treat, I fed the new and very little Microglanis some live blackworms today. This is one of the middle-sized fish (about 30mm SL or so). Even at this tiny size, these little fish can pack away the food. I suppose that's the upside to not being "armored" like Callichthyidae and Loricariidae. :))
Microglanis aff. iheringi 2021-01-18.jpg
Microglanis aff. iheringi 2021-01-18_dorsal.jpg
I really like the broken subdorsal brown saddle that so many of these new fish have. I can't wait to see how they'll grow out (I presume they are not full grown at this small size).

Looking more closely at this little fish, I think the broken subdorsal saddle resembles other Microglanis spp. moreso than . To support this, I use the photo above to zoom in on the pectoral spine. For better clarity, I used the right pectoral fin and flipped the image (I thought the spines were easier to see on the right pectoral fin than on the left. I then caught a second fish and placed it on a microscope stage and used the 'scope's camera to photograph its pectoral spine too. I juxtapose both images against the the pectoral spine drawings of the other species: https://www.planetcatfish.com/common/ca ... orsal+view

Although I know that spine serrations are somewhat unreliable (esp. in juveniles) and although it's difficult to make out all the detail, I' think these pics support the idea that my fish are not M. iheringi.
Photo taken with cell phone
Photo taken with cell phone
Photo taken with Leica microscope (Different fish from first photo)
Photo taken with Leica microscope (Different fish from first photo)
I'm not 100% convinced these two photos of these two fishes match each other exactly, but they are similar. Both of the photos of my fish clearly show nine to ten retrorse serrations on the posterior margin of the spine, with the serrations either of approximately the same length or elongating progressively as you move to distally (vs. clearly peaking in length midway along the spine and shortening in the final distal portion), and with the serrations becoming progressively wider at their base along the spine distally, and with all but the most distal serration approximately parallel and the most distal serration changing orientation to create a wider angle between it and the second-to-the-last serration. The posterior serrations stop before reaching the end of the spine, leaving a significant length of spine unserrated (both anteriorly and posteriorly), with a slight anterior-leaning deflection.
On the anterior margin of the spines, I can see retrorse serrations, smaller than those of the posterior margin, present at least for the first 1/2 to 3/4 of the spine; unfortunately, in both photos, the pigmentation makes a more precise narrative of the anterior serrations impossible from these photos.

There is much similarity between the spines of these two catfish of mine and that of M. pellopterygius, although my fish are definitely not that. My fishes' spines also resemble that of M. zonatus (which might be more plausible given body color pattern, although it would require the old drawing of the M. zonatus spine to be rather inaccurate.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Here are pics of the pectoral spine of a third specimen from this most recent purchase. Alas, this fish has an intact "iheringi"-like, solid colored dorsal saddle, rather than a broken saddle like the other two fish. Why is that an alas? Because the pectoral spine looks about the same on all three fish. I was hoping that the fish with intact saddles would have a different pattern to their pectoral spine serrations relative to that seen in the fish with pale spots or breaks in their subdorsal dark saddles.

Even the spine of looks pretty close, although the other fish features don't match: https://www.planetcatfish.com/common/im ... ge_id=7602

Thinking back to the first two spine photos, I can somewhat convince myself that the first is different than the second and third, but that may just be camera resolution. I wish I had thought to photograph the pectoral of first fish using the Leica scope.

Ugh. Oh well. Again, wait for them to grow.

Cheers, Eric
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Microglanis aff. iheringi 2021-01-18 fish 3, pectoral spine Leica scope pic 3 traced.png
Microglanis aff. iheringi 2021-01-18 fish 3, pectoral spine Leica scope.png
Microglanis aff. iheringi 2021-01-18 fish 3, pectoral spine Leica scope pic 2 traced.png
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

More pics from today, of two more (different) fish. First, a photo of a small fish, the photo which I took while the fish rested at a vertical angle in a shadow, thus revealing better the anterior serrations on the pectoral spine.
small yellow specimen, revealing anterior edge serrations
small yellow specimen, revealing anterior edge serrations
This still presents with a "closest match" for spine morphology to , although my fish are not that. Conversely, I could still envision my spines matching that of , if you allow that the old drawing is not accurate to some degree. One other small fish I tried to photograph today would not sit still long enough for photos, so I got none from it. I was convinced however that I saw on the anterior edge of the spine of that fish a 2-pointed (both antrorse and retrorse) serration at the transition, however, I have not seen that on any of the five fish I've photographed so far (although in each case, pigmentation clouds the visibility of that serration every time).

After that, photos of the left and right pectoral spines of one of my original group, a large yellow fish about 65mm SL.
large yellow specimen, left pectoral spine
large yellow specimen, left pectoral spine
large yellow specimen, right pectoral spine
large yellow specimen, right pectoral spine
I am probably mistaken, but to me, the anterior serrations on the pectoral spines of this large fish appear to transition from retrorse to antrorse about 1/3-1/2 the way along the spine, vs. at the 2/3 (or so) point (above the 3rd posterior serration from distal end) in the smaller fish I photographed.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

And here are the left and right pectoral spines of one of the 50mm SL fat wood-grained dark females:
Right pectoral spine
Right pectoral spine
Left pectoral spine
Left pectoral spine
I confess I was really expecting to see more difference between the short dark fatties and the long yellow more slender specimens. X_X

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