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@MissNoodle, @Shane, @Jools: Here's one more chapter in the saga of vague Ancistrus from Venezuela and Colombia:

I got these five fish from my LFS, Tropical Haven in Modesto, California, which imported these as Ancistrus bodenhameri () from Petra Aqua in the Czech Republic.

The fish are about 3-3.5cm TL, obviously too small to sex. They are very washed out in this video but in the store tank they resembled . Let's see how they grow out.

Here's a photo the store owner took when the fish arrived: Direct link to YouTube site: "Ancistrus bodenhameri" from Petra Aqua

Are they wild caught? Having sat down and talked with a few owners of Czech fish exporters, they seem to bred fish they sell. Although the conversations were mostly around , we did touch on (because of the situation). Summary is fishes we labelled as whatever they looked like with no regard to where they came from or indeed being sure the parents were the same species. One company was trying to cross with a more fecund species to get infinite pretty bristlenoses...

Jools

I'm pretty sure these are farmed in the Czech Republic. I contacted the Petra Aqua company to see if they could share any additional info, or even photos of the parents, but do far, no response.

These fish have been on the Petra Aqua price list for a long time I believe, so this parent stock may be old. I'm not suggesting original wild parents are still alive or that they are the direct parents of my fish; rather I'm only suggesting that this is not a recently created line of fish. If they are a hybrid, or even just simply line breed for better color pattern, then it was probably done years ago.

The notion that farmers are intentionally trying to create hybrids is disappointing, but I'm not surprised.

Cheers, Eric

I have only just seen this now. Pings don't seem to work

They're interesting, for sure.

One thing I note, is the pale band before the dark spot on the body right at the base of the caudal fin.

Mine, the store said were wild caught. Yet, they're not shy at all, so gotta wonder lol. Mine are not as jumpy as the ones in the video shared here, very calm, very mellow and friendly.

More recent views of mine...

Oh and this is what I meant about the caudal fin marks. This one shows it

Thanks! I'll attempt to get new videos or pics as soon as possible.

Cheers, Eric

Here's an update on these Ancistrus. During a deep clean of the tank, I found four of them. They haven't grown much, with the largest (my only obvious male) being just 47 mm SL after seven months in my care, and the others (at least two of which are females, if not all three) are at least 5mm shorter. I don't know if the fifth fish died or was just hiding well, but this species is very shy. That said, since I redid their tank, two of them are out in the open more.

They still remind me more of than of anything else.

Cheers, Eric

For the first time since I got these, the male is trapping a female overnight. Fingers crossed!

The male is still only about 5cm SL. For scale, the cave they're in is one of the smallest caves sold by Plecocaves.com.

Cheers, Eric

They were successful! Yay!

I see loose eggs on the floor of the cave, so this first spawn must have been a little chaotic, but I'll chalk it up to a win.

Hopefully the eggs are fertilized and develop well.

I sure wish I could know what these are. I emailed Petra Aqua again today. This time it's post-pandemic so hopefully somebody there replies to my email.

So how to record these? I don't think I should call them , nor as @Jools mentioned, is it wise to attribute these as if we don't know where they're from. But Petra Aqua is obviously breeding and selling them as A. bodenhameri, so should we have a CLOG entry called Ancistrus aff. martini for lack of a better name... or should it be Ancistrus aff. bodenhameri to maintain the connection to the name under which it's being marketed?

P.S. I'll post and share a new YouTube video of them when I get past my current work crunch of exam time at Univ.

Cheers,
Eric

First of all congrats! Without provenience, however, I would be shy about linking them to a known sp. Petra Aqua could have a good reason for identifying these as bodenhameri. Then again the id could be based on nothing more than the first brown Ancistrus they found alphabetically in an aquarium book.
Maybe Ancistrus sp "Petra Aqua" bred in the Czech Republic with no known collection location and marketed under the valid scientific name A. bodenhameri.
I have always tended to be on the conservative side when adding fish to the database that we have no collection info on and\or do not have very distinctive features that readily match up with a described sp.
-Shane

What to call them? I feel Corydoras "Venezuela black" happening again!

Well, we don't know what they are. The father could be a hybrid from Peruvian and Brazilian descent and the mother a wild-caught Colombian. Or they could be from wild fishes. Or anything one could imagine. Czech breeders don't have specific imports or connections differing from the rest of continental Europe, so they are not at all likely new. What is much more likely is a pretty Ancistrus has been crossed with a fecund one - this is the modus operandi commercial model.

I'd add them as Ancistrus sp.(X), where x is the next free number and give the full martini and bodenhammeri story. That will not stop folks adding them to A. bodenhammeri but it reflects the position and may help clear it up going forwards. You could also add a "If you bought a fish with this name then it is X" entry to the other spp.

I looked around the web and the whole thing is poorly known. See for example https://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/show ... 729/cat/44

Jools

Just saw Shane's post, I'd be keen to avoid naming them after a single company unless that company is entirely transparent on origin. Perhaps a common name if we feel the need. Good idea to name that company on the species profile mind you!

Consider the Czech Syno hybrids. We had a debate about adding them to the database and the view that won out was that dispelling "fake fish news" and calling them as they are was better. I believe that providing balanced info is better than allowing poorly researched or "myth and legend" info elsewhere to prevail.


Jools

Thanks Jools and Shane. I've created . I'll add text for its backstory later today when I'm on a computer.

Cheers,
Eric

This morning I found this one egg on the rim of the cave, and by tonight it was kicked out.

As a precaution, I moved the loose egg and the whole cave (with dad and eggs inside) into a fry basket. Let's see how that goes.

Cheers, Eric

Thanks for all the data and good luck with the eggs. On a related note, should have a common name of cucuta pleco? Maybe Martin's bristlenose and move cucuta to A. sp. cucuta? Asking before doing as not sure of background.

Jools

Just out of curiosity, what are the water parameters? The area around Cucuta is cold by South American standards. People from that area are called "gochos" (swine) because they are generally light skinned and the cold weather gives them ruddy cheeks (thus pink like a pig's skin). Keep in mind most people in the tropics are not accustomed to seeing pink cheeks or temps dipping below 70F.
-Shane

Jools wrote: ↑24 Sep 2022, 09:08On a related note, should

Ancistrus martini

have a common name of cucuta pleco? Maybe Martin's bristlenose and move cucuta to A. sp. cucuta? Asking before doing as not sure of background.

Hi Jools and Shane,

Jools, those common names seem reasonable. I'm looking at maps to compare the location of Cucuta and overlapping it with the distribution of A. martini. They do overlap. But A. martini has a much wider distribution, so naming it the Cucuta pleco seems too narrow and undeserved. I've made the changes to the common names.

I'm still having mixed feelings about this Ancistrus sp.`Cucuta` and Ancistrus martini, specifically about the relationship between all the photos I've seen of both: Comparing the photos of "A. bodenhameri" that are on L-welse.com to our Ancistrus martini and Ancistrus sp.`Cucuta`, the L-welse photos look more like A. sp.`Cucuta`. Unfortunately, all the scientific publications which have updated the taxonomy of A. martini have presented photos of either preserved fish or live fish out of water, so none of the aquarium photos seem to resemble adult A. martini. Also, I don't have any sense of how big the fish are in the aquarium photos here and on L-welse, although to me, they all look small. If those pics all show fish around 5-6cm, then maybe all those are A. sp.`Cucuta`.

If 9cm A. martini were photographed live under water, would they look like A. sp.`Cucuta`? I expect not.

I'm so confused.

Shane wrote: ↑24 Sep 2022, 12:16Just out of curiosity, what are the water parameters? The area around Cucuta is cold by South American standards. ... Keep in mind most people in the tropics are not accustomed to ... temps dipping below 70F.

Shane, these fish are in an unheated 10 gallon tank with a sponge filter and extra airstone. In winter, tank temp slips to about 68F. In the summer, the temp rises to over 80F when my air conditioner is set to 83F while I'm at work. Right now, the tank temperature is 76F in daytime and about 5F lower overnight.

What might have triggered the spawn? Nothing I did, but about 3-4 days prior, our local daily high temperatures fell from over 110⁰F to under 80⁰F and with that we got our first rain of the year. Even though the rain had stopped, it may have triggered their "enthusiasm" to spawn.

Shane wrote: ↑24 Sep 2022, 12:16People from that area are called "gochos" (swine) because they are generally light skinned and the cold weather gives them ruddy cheeks (thus pink like a pig's skin).

Who calls them that? Other Venezuelans/Colombians? Not sure I'd like being called swine by my countrymen.

Cheers,
Eric

They hatched! Six days from eggs to hatching (no more than 6.5 days, depending on when eggs were laid, since eggs weren't there at 7am last Thursday but were there by 9pm that evening). I'd share pics of fry, but dad is doing his darnedest to block my camera view.

Edit. Moved dad's cave for easier viewing and got pics. Two eggs that were loose in cave haven't yet hatched, but all eggs in dad's adhered egg mass have hatched.

Cheers, Eric

Came home from work today to discover dad had abandoned the fry and he was outside the cave. So I released him from the fry basket and I then released the fry from the cave into the basket. I was interested in the color pattern these are showing around the head within 24 hours of hatching. Not like what I see on my Rio Ucayali or wabenmuster BNs, or on Rio Paraguay or Rio Tocantins BNs. I've never kept common BNs to know what their colors look like.

Babies are coloring up quickly.

They're looking great Eric congrats!

Thanks seb47!

Cheers, Eric

Babies are starting to leave the corners of the basket and explore the Magnolia leaves.

About 17 days old. The biggest baby is about 15mm SL, (I say about because I don't know if I measured the largest fish).

Today I moved them from my Imagitarium-brand fry basket to one of the Swiss Tropicals breeder rings that I got at CatCon last weekend.

Sure is easier to see them now!

Cheers, Eric

They spawned again last night, 28 days after the previous spawn. Meanwhile, the fry from the first spawn are doing well. No deaths.

Cheers, Eric

Dang it. Got home from work this evening and found dad alone in cave. I did find the eggs loose in the tank. Added them to a fry ring with previous fry. Will try to set the eggs up on their own; don't want older fry to eat them.

Update on the development. Dang these fish have an amorphous, indistinct color pattern. But what is clear is a distinct white margin on the caudal fin and dark spots all long the lateral midline.

Cheers, Eric

The second clutch of eggs are now hatching.

Been a while since I updated. Without explanation, one of the older fry died in the breeder ring. It had no signs of deformity and it was eating well. Of the fry from the second spawn, I had several die within a few days of hatching. Maybe the older fry were bullying the younger hatchlings? I don't know, but the both spawns, in the same breeding ring, seem to be doing okay now.

Only other recent development is that I just discovered one solitary older fry loose in the tank. I presume it hatched from one of the loose eggs in the first spawn and that the egg must have been lost by dad when he kicked (what I thought was) one egg out - I saw only one loose egg outside the cave and I consolidated it in the breeder ring, but obviously I missed this one. What I find interesting is that this loose baby is much darker than the other young in the fry ring. Apparently the overhead lighting really causes the babies in the breeder ring to get pale.

Looking ahead with anticipation:

• The first spawn was Sept 22, a Thursday.
• The second spawn was Oct 20, another Thursday exactly 4 weeks after the first time.
• For the last 2-3 days, a male has been in the spawning cave alone, but he has his tail dangling out of the cave like he's trying to lure the female.

If the four week cycle holds up, I'll have more eggs Thursday night this week. Fingers crossed!

Cheers, Eric