PlanetCatfish.com

Hi to all,

After a long vacation I was able to bring some more of these beauties at even cheaper prices, all wild caught.

WC Zebra pleco end of year sale $100 dollars each.
also L400 adults available

http://www.plecoworld.org/modules.php?n ... opic&t=413

Regards,
Saul

Hello, your link doesn't work for some reason.

Are wild ones still banned from export?

I have corrected the link.. please try it again.

Taratron wrote:Are wild ones still banned from export?

It is a point to debate so I will allow you and others to make your own decision.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 24&t=26940

Regards
Saul

Unungy wrote:

Taratron wrote:Are wild ones still banned from export?

It is a point to debate so I will allow you and others to make your own decision.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 24&t=26940

Regards
Saul

It is not a point of debate, it is a point of fact that exporting this species from Brazil is illegal. Please don't mislead - I've issued a warning accordingly.

Jools

Jools,

Please dont misslead people to believe that I import and sell illegal fish that is not true. I have all my import\export permits as well as my license to sell fish in any state in the United State of America in order.
If as the owner of this website you don't want me to sell Zebra plecos then all wild caught fish should also fall into the same category. You have already issued me a warning for speaking my mind before even though nothing wrong was said.

I have attached a copy of all fish that are illegal to import\export or to sell in California, USA. United States has very strong laws in this regards and under no circumstances I will break them.

CALIFORNIA:

Prohibited fish species -- illegal to import, transport, or possess live specimens w/o a permit

(4) Class Agnatha - Jawless Fishes

(A) Family Petromyzontidae - Lampreys All nonnative species (D).

(5) Class Osteichthyes - Bony Fishes

(A) Family Percichthyidae - Temperate Basses

1. The species Morone americana (White perch) (D).

2. The species Morone chrysops (White bass) (D).

(B ) Family Clupeidae - Herrings Dorosoma cepedianum (Gizzard shad) (D).

(C ) Family Sciaenidae - Drums Aplodinotus grunniens (freshwater drum) (D).

(D) Family Characidae - Characins

1. Astyanax fasciatus (Banded tetra) (D).

2. All species of the genera Serrasalmus, Serrasalmo, Pygocentrus, Taddyella, Rooseveltiella, and Pygopristis (Piranhas) (D).

3. Hoplias malabaricus (Tiger fish) (D).

(E) Family Salmonidae - Trouts Salmo salar (Atlantic salmon) - Restricted in the Smith River watershed (D).

(F) Family Lepisosteidae - Gars All species (D).

(G) Family Amiidae - Bowfins All species (D).

(H) Family Poeciliidae - Livebearers Belonesox belizanus (Pike killifish) (D).

(I) Family Channidae - Snakeheads All species (D).

(J) Family Cyprinidae - Carps and Minnows

1. Leuciscus idus (ide) (D).

2. Ctenopharyngodon idellus (Grass carp) (D), except that permits may be issued to a person, organization or agency for possession of triploid grass carp, under conditions set forth in Section 238.6.

3. Hypophthalmichthys molitrix (Silver carp) (D).

4. Aristichthys nobilis (Bighead carp) (D).

(K) Family Trichomycteridae (Pygidiidae) - Parasitic Catfishes. All species (D).

(L) Family Cetopsidae - Whalelike Catfishes. All species (D).

(M) Family Clariidae - Labyrinth Catfishes All species of the genera Clarias, Dinotopterus, and Heterobranchus (D).

(N) Family Heteropneustidae (Saccobranchidae) - Airsac Catfishes All species (D).

(O) Family Cichlidae - Cichlids

1. Tilapia sparrmani (Banded Tilapia) (D).

2. Tilapia zilli (Redbelly tilapia) (D), except permits may be issued to a person or agency for importation, transportation, or possession in the counties of San Bernardino, Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, San Diego, and Imperial.

3. Tilapia aurea (Blue tilapia) (D).

4. Tilapia nilotica (Nile tilapia) (D).

(P) Family Anguillidae - Freshwater Eels. All species of genus Anguilla (D).

(Q) Family Esocidae - Pikes all species (D).

(R ) Family Percidae - Perches

1. Perca flavescens (Yellow perch) (D).

2. Stizostedion vitreum (Walleye) (D).

(S) Family Catostomidae - Suckers All members of the genus Ictiobus (Buffalos) (D).

(T) Family Cyprinodontidae - Killifishes Cyprinodon variegatus (Sheepshead minnow) (D).

(6) Class Elasmobranchiomorphi - Cartilaginous Fishes

(A) Family Carcharhinidae - Requiem Sharks All species of genus Carcharhinus (Freshwater sharks) (D).

(B ) Family Potamotrygonidae - River stingrays All species (D).


Source: California Code of Regulations, title 14, section 671. These regulations are promulgated by the California Fish and Game Commission pursuant to statutory authority set forth in the California Fish and Game Code. (There's a statutory list too, but the one from the regulations is more complete. The statutes only contain the original list, whereas the regulations also include all species added by the Commission.)

You can also see the entire list of prohibited animals for California at the following link:

Restricted Animals Of California

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1518.pdf

Same applies to most states in the USA but the Zebras pleco is not mentioned in any of them.

Regards,
Saul

Gentlemen

I think we have here a situation where the word 'illegal' is interpreted ddifferntly, and only that is the source for the above

Jools says 'it's illegal to export them, so they are illegal'. Saul says 'it's not illegal to import them, so nothing to worry about'

Personally, I think Jools is right. If a fish is not allowed to be exported from the only country on earth where they life in nature, all wild caught fishes of that species have to be exported illegally - and therefore they are illeagal fish

Obviously, the state of California does not bother about this, and nor does my country. Therefore I better refrain from giving opinions about these law systems, but I do feel the word 'good' refers to more than just following the law - there is also a matter of ethics.

Jools his point of view is an ethical one, not only a legal one

Jools locked the previous topic under the rule "it is illegal to sell these in the USA" - I'm not sure where this came from, but I certainly agree that there are two legal instances that have different rules - the fish are definitely, and absolutely, ILLEGAL to export from Brazil. The fish, once outside of Brazil is subject to other legislation, and it may or may not be illegal to sell them locally - this is up to the countries legislation. Many countries rely on the exporting country to set the rules, and once it is out that country, it is legal in the recipient country. Other countries have a "it's illegal to sell animals procured through smuggling".

In conclusion: These fish were obtained ILLEGALLY from Brazil - they may not be illegal to sell in the US - I simply don't know about that.

Unungy may not have actually broken any law (because the breaking of the law was done when the fish crossed the Brazilian border, not when it came into the US, if it was shipped via for example Colombia, Peru or Venezuela), but ethically, it is promoting the export of illegal wildlife...

--
Mats

Not sure if I heard it correct but I recal reading something somewhere that the U.S. has an agreement to respect the export restrictions of other countries, resulting in a likewise restriction on importation and subsequent sale in the U.S.

I haven't seen the official legal wording, but its to do with bio-piracy - which is what Brazil regards the exportation of negative list species to be. The same could be the case in other countries, if they have signed up to agreements on bio-piracy - but I really don't know. Taken to the extreme, individuals who purchase known banned species (importers or aquarists) could be in breach also???

Anybody know what the international perspective is on bio-piracy?

Mark

all this over fish that are about to be wiped out clean from THEIR NATURAL HABITAT. so I take it, lets do the best thing and NOT sell them, just let them be in the wild and soon once the dams are built, they will be extinct like the dinosaurs are from the wild. WE NEED TO SAVE THEM BY IMPORTING MANY AS WE CAN AND give/sell them to people who will breed them and once again give them a 2nd chance at life ,and put some back into the wild in another location very similar to their natural rivers they are found in.While we sit here and argue over what is wrong and what is right, our most coveted species is one step closer to extinction. Once this dam is in place there wont be anymore illegal exports/imports of wild zebras. Only then will we have the opportunity to buy them tank raised from individuals or not AT ALL. I believe it is just to sell them THIS IMO

We really don`t need wild cought specimens of this species any more. We already have plenty of them to safely breed them for decades or more. Selling wild cought zebras for only 100$ is price dumping, that actually hurts small breeders economically.

Since zebras are illegal to export from Brazil I see no reason for a commercial importer to advertice them here for free without even contributing. My suggestion is to delete the whole thread.

As long as fish are imported in compliance with the laws of the United States there should not be any difference what the species is.
If Brazil elevated the Hypancistrus to an endangered species status as truly endangered in the right way then the USA would honor that assessment and support the laws. The H. zebra are really not endangered in the normal sense of the concept. They are threatened by development. They will be fine until the dam is operational and the natural seasonal flows have been artificially changed.
There appears to me that there must be a reason why Brazil has stopped short of describing H. zebra as an endangered species but to do so would bring unwanted focus on the real threat to them and other species below the Belo Monte Hydroelectric site that has nothing to do with the threat posed by hobbyist/collectors and everything to do the threats posed to many species due to a massive change in the Rio Xingu ecosystem solely brought on by the construction the hydroelectric project.
It technically is still within the realm of personal ethics unless you are the one actually collecting the fish and are caught in Brazil. In that case you would be prosecuted for violating an administrative ruling by an agency whose reach is limited to Brazilian jurisdiction. I find it more unethical to destroy species by habitat destruction financed by Brazil and the World Bank. Ultimately World Bank financing comes from the contributions of our different countries' central banks. Our money is financing the project that threatens the native species in the name of economic development. Why persecute individuals when we are financially contributing directly to the real threat?
Maybe we should no longer allow anyone to run a free post for fish or sale and charge an advertising fee. I made all my $90 donations from the sales of fish that were generated from my listings in the for sale section in the past voluntarily. I value the privilege of being allowed to use it to sell some of fish I am currently selling. But technically, I am only presently accepting deposits to reserve them at a specific sale price until the weather is safe for mailing them. Most likely I will donate more after the sales have been finally consummated.
I understand this subject stirs emotions but I believe if the law in the USA and most of the rest of the world's countries are not restricting the importation and sale of H. zebra we should not be playing policemen. When that is done outside the law it is called vigilantism.

apistomaster wrote:As long as fish are imported in compliance with the laws of the United States there should not be any difference what the species is.
If Brazil elevated the Hypancistrus to an endangered species status as truly endangered in the right way then the USA would honor that assessment and support the laws. The H. zebra are really not endangered in the normal sense of the concept. They are threatened by development. They will be fine until the dam is operational and the natural seasonal flows have been artificially changed.
There appears to me that there must be a reason why Brazil has stopped short of describing H. zebra as an endangered species but to do so would bring unwanted focus on the real threat to them and other species below the Belo Monte Hydroelectric site that has nothing to do with the threat posed by hobbyist/collectors and everything to do the threats posed to many species due to a massive change in the Rio Xingu ecosystem solely brought on by the construction the hydroelectric project.
It technically is still within the realm of personal ethics unless you are the one actually collecting the fish and are caught in Brazil. In that case you would be prosecuted for violating an administrative ruling by an agency whose reach is limited to Brazilian jurisdiction. I find it more unethical to destroy species by habitat destruction financed by Brazil and the World Bank. Ultimately World Bank financing comes from the contributions of our different countries' central banks. Our money is financing the project that threatens the native species in the name of economic development. Why persecute individuals when we are financially contributing directly to the real threat?
Maybe we should no longer allow anyone to run a free post for fish or sale and charge an advertising fee. I made all my $90 donations from the sales of fish that were generated from my listings in the for sale section in the past voluntarily. I value the privilege of being allowed to use it to sell some of fish I am currently selling. But technically, I am only presently accepting deposits to reserve them at a specific sale price until the weather is safe for mailing them. Most likely I will donate more after the sales have been finally consummated.
I understand this subject stirs emotions but I believe if the law in the USA and most of the rest of the world's countries are not restricting the importation and sale of H. zebra we should not be playing policemen. When that is done outside the law it is called vigilantism.

VERY good post Larry!

apistomaster wrote:I understand this subject stirs emotions but I believe if the law in the USA and most of the rest of the world's countries are not restricting the importation and sale of H. zebra we should not be playing policemen. When that is done outside the law it is called vigilantism.

Yes, and as ever the important word is if. I would do well to clarify the law, wouldn't I? I'm attempting to do so for the USA as I think they have a more restricted legislative basis. That basis will then form the basis for our behaviour(rules) here.

Also, we would do well to remember the difference between protected species and endangered, they are not always the same thing.

Haavard makes a VERY good point in that H. zebra is well looked after in our tanks and that cheap imports seriously damage captive breeding projects; many other, "duller" species are not so safe. However, if I were to delete this thread then we all end up writing the same things again in a new one. So it stays.

Jools

Price dumping huh? Well, that brings us back to the point that saul made that his prices are really the issue. Do you really think you need to charge so much for a fish that is not that big a challenge to breed? If we go by what you have said, then there are plenty of all wild caught plecos in captivity, spo let;s just stop getting all of them. Dosne't make much sense to me, but you all seem to think you know best. if, you want to charge that much for a fish, then it should be something hard to breed, like gold nuggets or something along those lines. but to whine about price dumping simply shows your real interest here. And besides that, if you don't live in the USA, why is it your problem? As much as I hate to give credit to the person who said it, why leave them all to die when the dam goes up? now I'm sure you're going to whines about my post, or threaten to ban me, but i like yourself am just expressing my opinion. And I'm doing it in a civil manner. Any problem with that just makes my point for me. Stop charging so much for a fish that used to retail for $25 dollars. it's just not that hard of a fish to breed or keep. i think when i get 420 for a fish, that i won the lottery, so stop cryinbg about price dumping!!!

Just wanted to check, as I found it a little hard to read, was that most recent post directed at me specifically please?

Jools

They aren't that hard to breed, but it takes an awful lot of time to grow them to saleable size - about 15-18 months for a reasonable size to sell (around 1.5").

I do understand that the Brazil government are building a power-station on the river, and that will have a great chance of destroying just about all fish-life in a large part of the river (but apparently not quite as bad as some other dams in Brazil, if the book on the Amazon is correct in the size of dam vs. power produced).

But this doesn't change the fact that the Brazil government has put these fish on the list of "not to be exported", whether that is for a good reason or not, it is the Brazillian law. Imagine you live in Texas, and the US government puts a restriction on exporting blue-bonnet flowers. Now, imagine that gangs come in and starts harvesting these blue-bonnets. And selling them in Brazil - where buying and selling blue-bonnets is a perfectly legal thing... Would you think that is OK, simply because blue-bonnets aren't going extinct? Or would you think that gangs should respect the law in your country?

Two wrongs doesn't make a right!

--
Mats

mjlfish wrote:Stop charging so much for a fish that used to retail for $25 dollars. it's just not that hard of a fish to breed or keep. i think when i get 420 for a fish, that i won the lottery, so stop cryinbg about price dumping!!!

If it's really TOO expensive, no one would buy them, but obviously there's a huge market for them. The only way to stop the price from being that high is to stop the demand, ie, don't buy it. I think we need to be fair and look at both sides of the arguments.

And yes, they are fairly easy to breed, but they grow slowly, and reach sexual maturity slowly, plus the clutches are small. This is totally different than an L600 for instance, where people get spawns of several hundred, making the profit margin that much higher.

Again, if you think the price is too high, just don't buy it. We see this even in the forum classifieds where people have to lower the prices to sell. It's a free market. No one is forced to buy. If it gets cheap enough, because of poor demand, then people will stop risking the smuggling too. Then it's the end of the problem. But alas, we know that's not going to happen.

The Zebra Plecos are very hard to produce in large enough quantities for their aquaculture to solve illegal collecting.
If for now USA Customs doesn't have the legal authority to cease shipments and must let them through that is hardly the fault of those who can obtain the fish and bring them into this country. No different than taking legal advantage of tax loop holes that allow one to reduce the taxes you pay. Make a law that specifically addresses this and then the rules will be clear.
This issue cuts both ways. It is not rare for black bears in the USA to be poached for their gall bladders which are legally sold in China.
You wouldn't want the fish and game people to catch you in their jurisdiction. The USA Federal and in cooperation with their State official counterparts routinely bust up organized criminal poaching rings and prosecute the offenders but USA Black Bear Gall Bladders are apparently perfectly legal to sell in China. Tiger bones coming from the few thousand remaining extant Tiger populations are illegal in China but their bones still openly sold.
If Brazil was doing something that was going to ensure the continued existence in the wild of Hypancistrus zebra there would be more support but their plans are to make the native habitat unsuitable for the native wild Zebras to survive. Hard to root for them and their laws as representing the "good guys." It is at least in the USA, only subject to the rules of one's conscience whether to buy or not to buy wild zebras which somehow make it here. I don't have much sympathy for hapless Brazilian enforcement of a rule based on false pretexts. Make no mistake, the real problem is due to a decision to develop the hydroelectric potential in the Rio Xingu drainage and it is a project which hasn't any stipulations in it to save any species of fish. As I understand it, only a privileged few in Brazil may work with them for scientific purposes under Brazilian governmental auspices. If they had interior department extension agents working with locals to form species preservation and even commercial production facilities within the financial reach of the fishermen who depend up until now on collected wild fish for some or much of their living then there would be a lot more world support. Right now the future of the fish is in better hands with more knowledgeable breeders who have more influence over providing a secure future for these fish in the hobby than there are actual number of Brazilians doing something to preserve this species or even commercialize it. There are not presently enough breeders in the USA to supply affordable tank raised fish at least 4+ cm long. Blue Bells were used symbolically but the Peyote Cactus is a better example of a USA native species being exploited beyond its ability to cope despite the laws in place to protect the species.
Takes more like many decades for Peyote Cactus to produce the buttons many desire. And their cultivation is illegal. This is more analogous to the Zebra Pleco comparison.
If we couldn't preserve our Texas Blue Bells and smugglers helped those who could and would I would not respect USA regulations much.
Civil disobedience is a right of all Americans willing to pay the price should they become defendants in a governmental prosecution. Fortunately we haven't lost our capacity to use it when it seems to be the most appropriate course of action.
And I think I will also keep my guns should some lefties manage to infringe on what I believe are my rights. For now, I don't have to worry about governmental agents kicking in my doors like they love to do just to see what fish I am keeping. I have had the local police use a flimsy excuse to get a glimpse inside my house to see why my house emitted such a strange glow at night. I was able to show the rather embarrassed officer that I was keeping a lot of fish tanks instead of growing Marijuana in my front rooms. True story.
The best way for Brazil to make their case would be for the government show by it's deeds that it has a viable plan to save the H. zebra. Until they do it is difficult to respect their regulations.

2wheelsx2 wrote:

mjlfish wrote:Stop charging so much for a fish that used to retail for $25 dollars. it's just not that hard of a fish to breed or keep. i think when i get 420 for a fish, that i won the lottery, so stop cryinbg about price dumping!!!

If it's really TOO expensive, no one would buy them, but obviously there's a huge market for them. The only way to stop the price from being that high is to stop the demand, ie, don't buy it. I think we need to be fair and look at both sides of the arguments.

And yes, they are fairly easy to breed, but they grow slowly, and reach sexual maturity slowly, plus the clutches are small. This is totally different than an L600 for instance, where people get spawns of several hundred, making the profit margin that much higher.

Again, if you think the price is too high, just don't buy it. We see this even in the forum classifieds where people have to lower the prices to sell. It's a free market. No one is forced to buy. If it gets cheap enough, because of poor demand, then people will stop risking the smuggling too. Then it's the end of the problem. But alas, we know that's not going to happen.

I see you missed the point. I'm not complaining about Sauls prices, just the rest of the overpriced sellers whining about his supposed price dumping. And sorry it was too hard for you to read jools, is this better? i was in a hurry before, but I have time to debate now. There really isn't a slight in what I had to say to you, unless you're just another overpriced zebra breeder. then I guess you can be offended. My main point is that most of the naysayers on here have all been from another country. well just so you know, we don't make the laws we just live by them. And as apistomaster pointed out there really is no difference to this than a tax loophole. If Brazil chooses not to protect the zebra and its habitat, why is it so wrong to bring them in while you can. And as far as gangs being behind it. Come on, more like people who need to earn a living and they are willing to do what it takes to do so. I'm sure the people of Brazil all live in fear of the zebra pleco gang. And most blackmarket goods are expensive, but Sauls zebras sure aren't!

Hi everyone! Everyone knows the price of L-46 has been outrageous for several years and I think it great to get the opportunity to purchase them at such a good price. Like it or not the price of the zebra is coming down to more reasonable prices and other hypans are going up. All the focus on the zebra has taken away from the rest of the pleco species that are a lot harder to come by. The L-46 isn't a hard fish to spawn. No different than any other hypancistrus. Like already stated it isn't against the law to import to the USA just to export from Brazil. It all boils down to money. People get mad when someone else sells thier product for less than they will! Free trade!! GO SAUL!!! Later Steve

I breed 333,260,411,201,340 and 399 hypancistrus
Want to breed something hard try some of the bristlenose plecos. In my opinion some of them are harder than the hypans. The 255 spotted medusa is a tough one. I breed 183,338,71,180,255 and the Rio Ucalalay. I also breed the 264 sultan and the L007 vampire.I have pics to prove I have spawned all of these fish. I am in the hobby for the challenge of breeding in the aquarium. I am happy if they pay for themselves!!! Have a great day!!! Steve Fawcett

mjlfish wrote: I see you missed the point. I'm not complaining about Sauls prices, just the rest of the overpriced sellers whining about his supposed price dumping.

But why? How's that going to change things? If you think Saul is right, join him and start selling $100 Zebras. The fact of the matter is, even if there were 50 Sauls the price of the Zebs (even if the supply were there) the price is still high because of the restricted supply. It's like pot. Every block has a grow op up here, but the price of pot is still high. Why? Because it's restricted. What's the solution? Stop buying pot then the sellers will have no market. This is just straightforward economics. If the other sellers want to complain about Saul, let them. If the market is still there, they can still sell their Zebs no problem. If it's not, then they will have to lower their price.

I went to Costa Rica 3 years ago and was really impressed with their hydro-electric and hydro-thermal (volcanic) power supply. I understood it to be a completely independent country for its 'clean' electricity supply. It sets a great example and any country would desire this. However I don't know what the environmental cost was.

Brazil has a wealth in rivers. On the one hand I can see why it would want to harness the huge potential to produce clean electricity with its rivers. On the other, we all know Brazil has a fantastic wealth in fauna and flora. It wants power for its cities and its people, but it has a huge responsibility to preserve its wildlife. Politicians make the decisions.

I hate the idea of the zebra pleco, or any species, losing its habitat and ultimately being made extinct in the wild by human activity. Is that not the biggest issue? It happened to the RTB shark, but at least it survives in captivity. I keep zebras, tank-bred. I keep them because they are stunning fish. If they breed and I make money to support my fish-keeping... great! Same goes for any other fish I keep.

On the other hand, if a country legally imports a wild fish, that has been illegally exported, isn't it in effect sponsoring a black-market trade?

This topic makes my head spin!!!

wrasse wrote:It wants power for its cities and its people, but it has a huge responsibility to preserve its wildlife. Politicians make the decisions.

Just to make something clear, which a lot of people tend to miss in this sort of discussion: The purpose of building the power-plant has only a little bit to do with supplying the area with electricity for the people living there, and a lot to do with smelting aluminium. Aluminium production is one of the most energy hungry metal production processes on this planet. First you take aluminium oxide (bauxite - remember Ingo talking about that from his Suriname trip!), melt it [and that's HOT], then use electricity to split aluminium from the oxygen.

--
Mats

I do not like the ambiguities regarding the wild Zebra Pleco exports. It does raise serious conflicts in my personal ethics that support the law but at the same time many environmental organizations Green Peace, for an example, regularly block legal but harmful whaling and fisheries activities using tactics that amount to acts of piracy and much of the world applauds their efforts. Their causes are often just but their means do justifies their ends in the eyes of many. So it is with the illegal zebra collection and and smuggling exports from Brazil to Countries that do not restrict the possession and sales of these fish. If most of these fish were merely being purchased by those who collect one of everything and do not even try to breed them that is not something I could support. But the reality is that nearly all of the wild Zebras being sold outside of Brazil are being bought by those with the intention and ability to breed them. That makes it easier for me to support them than to simply allow a hydroelectric project to convert bauxite to pure aluminum cause their extinction. The larger the captive gene pool becomes the more certain will be their continued survival even if it is in captivity. Better to do this now than wait like has been done with the Giant Panda until only a handful of specimens exist in wild and many fewer in captivity and THEN decide this is a species worth saving anyway we can. If Brazil made a good faith effort on their own to preserve them as part of their developing their resources I would not be so quick to support the only alternative presently available. To their credit, many already are breeding Zebras but most of their breeding stock was also obtained after the export was banned. That does not make them any different than those who are acquiring as many wild fish as they can for now. Only a very minute proportion of zebra plecos bred and sold represent F2 fish and most fish raised are still only F1 generation so it is not a foregone conclusion that the first breeders are enough to ensure the Zebra Pleco's existence in the hobby is certain.

apistomaster wrote:But the reality is that nearly all of the wild Zebras being sold outside of Brazil are being bought by those with the intention and ability to breed them.

Larry,

What evidence do you have to back this up please? Could you also clarify specifically if you mean you have data for the USA or if you have data for the world. I spoke to two shopkeepers recently who are selling zebras and they say that approximately nine out of ten purchases are singles. Only two mind you, but they were consistent. While breeders can and will choose only to sell groups, shops do not have the same emotional investment. The USA might be different if people buying via mail order - this is a hunch however on my part. Factually, I do know the bulk of exports go to Japan and I have no idea the buying style over there.

Jools

Well Jools, Saul only sells a minimum of 5 fish at a time, so......

mjlfish wrote:Well Jools, Saul only sells a minimum of 5 fish at a time, so......

I couldn't have said it better.

This thread is about Saul's dealings and to the best of my knowledge, his sales have been limited to North America.
I have no idea what fish shops and keepers are doing in the UK.

Yep, those zebras are sure easy to spawn and raise. That is why you can name so many folks who are selling them. Of the aprroximately 165 PC members here who list themselves as zebra keepers, how many are selling tank raised fish??? zebrapleco.com lists 59 breeders in its registry. The memberships of both sites are pretty international.

And lets not forget those crafty Asian breeders who have massive secret breeding projects going and will be flooding the market with tons of cheap F1s. I have been hearing that for the past 5 years. I just cant seem to find the spawns being offered anywhere.

To a great extent because it is so recognizable the zebra has become a proxy fish when it comes to discussing the dams and species being lost issues. But as we all know, there are a lot of plecos and other fish that will likely be wiped out in the wild as the result of damming and industrial/agricultural pollutants.

Given all the condemnation of Brazil for going ahead with projects that will likely extinguish so many wild fish specieas wouldn't you think if they were actually underatking large scale operations to conserve these fish that even the least experienced PR person would have them splashing this sort of information all over the world press/media?