Spotless Ancistrus.

[MatsP]

This fish is a species that doesn't [as far as I can tell] match any fish in the Cat-eLog...

It resembles L043 from Aqualog, but I somehow doubt actually came from French Guyanas coastal rivers.

The colour of these photos is pretty accurate, and both the dorsal and caudal have a fairly narrow, even width band of lighter brown (not white, but almost yellow), the fish is brown and has no spots or pattern at all (some stress pattern, as they didn't like being caught and put in a photo tank, and they don't like being out and about in their normal tank, so I have hard time getting photos of them).

I'm hoping someone has seen something like this and can help out...

The out-of-water picture is so that you can see the dorsal rays (which doesn't reveal anything unusual).

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Mats

[Borbi]

Hi,

I´d put my money on L 338, if I had any..
The picture in the eLog appears very light for this fish, should be more darkish-brown in real life.
That would mean it´s from Brazil, Rio Guama river system.

Cheers, Sandor

[Unungy]

Hi Matt,

It looks like L88

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=7772

Regards
Saul

[MatsP]

I'm more inclined to believe L088 than L338. L338 seems to have some spots on the fins, which my fish hasn't got (even if that's hard to tell from the pictures...)

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Mats

[Unungy]

L088 are some kinda of rare fish to come by... not many people have them here in the United States.
Definitely a keeper...

Regards,
Saul

[Carp37]

I'm not sure how diagnostic it is, but L088 seem to lose the light border on the caudal fin with age, whereas L338 retain it- Mats' pictures appear to be of mature fish. Don't take that as definitive though!

[MatsP]

L088 are some kinda of rare fish to come by... not many people have them here in the United States.
Definitely a keeper...

Regards,
Saul

Well, they aren't common here either, as far as I can tell. There are only three keepers in the "My Cats", which isn't exactly "common".

And whatever it is, I'm not intending on getting rid of them.

Carp37: Mine are definitely quite mature - about 4" TL for the male, females a bit smaller.

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Mats

[Unungy]

As far as I know there are two people that breed them here in the USA, and we see babies every know and then.
This is a good example of good fish keeping. Steve I don't remember his last name got some wild ones some time ago. He was able to breed them... and was selling some what mature adults ready to breed.

Saul

[Unungy]

Going through my emails I found some picture to share for the sake of ID'ing your fish for sure, "These pictures are not mine, they belong to Steven Doreen who kindly sent to me a while ago"

Please share your thoughts?

Regards,
Saul

[MatsP]

For ID purposes, those images are a bit poor, I'm afraid.

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Mats

[MatsP]

Having had a few more minutes here at home, I had another look at the pictures (they haven't got any better, but I spent a bit longer looking at them), and they look SIMILAR. Whether they are the same, I don't know.

If someone has fish that are L088 and have babies of them, it would be nice to have a half-decent fry picture in the Cat-eLog.

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Mats

[Janne]

I agree with Sandor,

Ancistrus sp(l338)

.

Janne

[MatsP]

Hmm, yes. L088 does seem to loose the band on the Caudal fin when mature, whereas the single picture of L338 shows it still there. Mine certainly has that. I thought they had a band on the dorsal too, but looking closely last night, I couldn't see one - I'm sure they used to have it....

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Mats

[Carp37]

I thought they had a band on the dorsal too, but looking closely last night, I couldn't see one - I'm sure they used to have it....

Granted they're not your fish, but the fish pictured by Unungy have a very slight suggestion of a pale band at the dorsal fin margin, at least in some fish (I'm not counting the left-hand fish in the bottom picture, as I'm assuming that is a piece of flake behind the fish).

How confident are we that all the fish pictured as L088 in the CateLog are actually that species (using the term loosely)? I've not found much on the internet that doesn't link back to Planet Catfish, and my best catfish books are nearly 25 years old, so I'm not much help here- Sandor's and Janne's comments carry far more weight.

[MatsP]

I'd definitely trust Ingo's pictures of L088 - which is all images but 1, which is by Andre Werner... So I suspect that we have only fish that are known to be L088 in the Cat-eLog. Either that, or they are ALL wrong.

On L338, we only have a single image...

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Mats

[Carp37]

Thanks Mats- I'd not noticed that most pictures were Ingo's . For L088, not counting the fry, I think there's only one adult male pictured (1, 4 and 5), and three (I assume) subadult males (2, 3 and - that blue-eyed male looks strikingly different. I know camera flashes can sometimes distort eye colour, but that one looks genuinely blue-eyed, whereas the others are notably brown-eyed.



[Mod edit: Put image tags directly to link, rather than a link that doesn't work due to weird phpbb parsing --Mats]

[MatsP]

I think the blue eyes is caused by some medication, or possibly lighting conditions in the tank. I'm pretty sure that's not part of the fish's character.

And colour is a poor identification key.

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Mats

[Borbi]

Hi,

..admittedly, I don´t use the elog for my ID´s usually (not because of distrust, but I prefer paper and leafing through species). But of those pictures, I think (just as Mats suggested) Ingo and André can be trusted usually.

There are a few more pictures of L 88 and L 338 around in my books (the ones I trust, which excludes Aqualog).
And according to those, L 88 does have a seam as a youngster, but that is supposed to be white and additionally should have disappeared completely in the fish Mats pictured.

With respect to L 338, let me quote (and translate) a passage of the discription in the Wels Atlas 2:

Youngsters display yellowish dots on the whole body and are quite attractive. Upon maturation, these spots disappear almost completely. Only at the insertions of the fins some spots can be found on adult specimen.
Especially characteristic for L 338 is besides the caramel base color, usually with cloudy lighter markings, the whitish-red seam at the dorsal and caudal fin. This seam tends to disappear completely in the dorsal fin.

Translated from: Seidel, I., Evers, H.-G., Wels Atlas 2, p. 222, Mergus Verlag, Melle, 2005.

That description makes Mats´ fish a perfect match, methinks.
You would have to breed them for the juvenile coloration, of course!

Hope that helps a little,
Cheers, Sandor

Addition: with respect to the blue eyes question: that fish truly has blue eyes. And according to a report by Ingo on this species (it was initially known as Ancistrus sp. "Blue Eye") it is the mature form of L 88, but only a fraction of adult specimen really show these blue eyes. I.e., some of Ingos L 88 became exactly like the A. sp. "Blue Eye", so they were finally assigned to a single species.Would have to look up the exact details, though.

[MatsP]

My fish certainly have no spots on the join between the fin and the body, so I don't think they are L338.

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Mats

[Carp37]

My fish certainly have no spots on the join between the fin and the body, so I don't think they are L338.

Clicking on the picture of your male (to increase resolution), it looks like there MIGHT be some evidence 3 or 4 spots around the pectoral insertion (just on the fin membrane, not on the body), but I'm not sure.

*Edit- scratch that- it's tenuous at best.

[MatsP]

Very faint, if anything at all. I've pulled up the original (15 MP) image and cropped out the fins [from a different image than the one I already posted].

It's pretty hard to tell what's what in that picture, if it's spots or some sort of dirt/reflection/noise.

I will see if I can get a better picture... I don't think there are any spots there...

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Mats

[Carp37]

from that picture I'd say you're right- they don't appear to be spots.

[MatsP]

That's what I thought. I'm however going to attempt to get a better picture of the fin/body join to make sure. Shame they aren't more outgoing and "available" to photograph in the tank itself.

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Mats

[Borbi]

Hi,

Shame they aren't more outgoing and "available" to photograph in the tank itself.

Where would be the fun in that..?

You might wanna take one of those pictures (I found the last one in the first post the most helpful) to the CSG to show it to Ingo.
I´m still certain (as certain one can be with just pictures at hand) that L 338 is the most probable match available, especially since I am just learning first-hand how little discernible spots there can be on a true A. dolichopterus..

Cheers, Sandor

[MatsP]

I will almost certainly bring both camera and laptop to the CSG conference, and if I can borrow Ingo for a few minutes, I certainly will. But even last year when Ingo was not actually a speaker, it was hard to get a minute of his time - not that I was trying very hard, as I didn't have any specific questions.

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Mats

[mjlfish]

Hello all, I happen to keep and breed this particular fish. As they grow the yellow in the dorsal fin dissappears. When the fry are less than an inch they are remarkably similar to the 183. they are spotted and have yellow dorsal stripes and tail stripes. But the spots go away rather quickly. They become a solid colored fish. They do seem to keep some of the yellow on the tail. If you place them on a brown substrate the turn black. here are some fry pics.

[MatsP]

Interesting... And what L-number (or similar) do you call them?

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Mats

[mjlfish]

L88

[Unungy]

Interesting..

Would you happen to have any close pictures of the parents? nice babies.

Saul

[mjlfish]

I'll get some tomorrow and post them up here.