Walmart Alumnus

[AMT]

AHA! Nitrite 2 and Nitrate 3....My bad. No wonder you were confused.

Yes, those were the figures. And I'll add the salt now. Last question, I promise....If the water clears up considerably (but not quite crystal) can I feed him a few pellets? He inhales them immediately and they don't sit at all. I ask because every time I pass by, he chases me down. If not, that's fine. I just appreciate the advice.

Again, thank you so much. You are positively the best!

[Viktor Jarikov]

We only hope to help.

What you (and only you ) call Nitrite 2, it is normally called nitrite, aka in plural form nitrites, aka also in chemical formula NO2.

What you (and only you ) call Nitrate 3, it is normally called nitrate, aka in plural form nitrates, aka also in chemical formula NO3.

Please, consider using one of these three options to name the tests to avoid confusion in the future.

Catfish in the wild go through fasts because they are not able to locate or catch feed every day, often they cannot find adequate sustenance for weeks or months, and then they don't feed or don't feed much at all during certain seasons. It is known from keeping them in captivity, that for example your channel catfish of 1 foot length and more or less healthy can EASILY go for 1, 2, 3, and 4 weeks without feed. It can go for months without feed too.

I once was weaning a catfish off gravely-dangerous live feeder fish cuisine and it was a battle of wills, it was a stubborn one and didn't eat for 6 (!) months before it caved. I am reporting a true number. It got thin alright but not emaciated, and then rebounded just fine, in a month it was back to its normal weight.

Fish are not warm-blooded humans or other mammals. They need not warm themselves, they need not fight gravity and they live in a weightlessness (which is why their flesh is far more tender versus land animals), compared to humans and other higher animals they haven't any significant nervous system activity or brain activity. As such, they need 10x-100x less energy than humans to live a normal life, and can survive on 100x-1000x less energy than humans.

Often we anthropomorphize our pets, that is assign to them our needs, behavior, feelings, etc.

It's a long story to say your catfish will be just fine if you wait for your tank to cycle and for your ammonia and nitrite to firmly read ZERO ppm at all times, before and after feeding, which shouldn't take more than a few weeks from now.

You conditioned an instinct, a Pavlov-dog-like response in your pet that it associates your person or your approaching the tank with feeding. When you stop rewarding this behavior it may weaken or go away but as soon as you pick up, it will come back. It's called biological programming Our pet fish really are 99%+ programmed biological machines with the tiniest room for primitive deviation and training.

[Bas Pels]

I can only agree with Victor.

To add a few more numbers, an average mammal needs 10 times more food then a same sized reptile, and many a catfish is much slower than this reptile.

However, ´a mammal´ does not include humans. The thing is, in a normal mammal, the kidneys consume the most of their energy, but in humans it is our brain. We have a very oversized brain, compared to other mammals, and brains take a lot of energy. In relative terms, ours is 4 times the size of a chimpansee´s being the non-human with relatively the largest brains

We could say that our brains make us need twice the energy an average mammal does.

So, starving oneself for a day would compare to starving another mammal for two days, that is starving a reptile for 20 days and starving a catfish for perhaps 40 days.

The record for a human starving and surviving the hunger strike is around a month. Therefore Victors fish, refusing to eat for half a year, is not a big starvator, it was just getting used to not eating.

[AMT]

Wow, just wow! I had no idea how complex a freshwater tank could be. I'm speechless. Again, thank you all.

About the results, I ran the tests again and the numbers are the exact same. According to ammolock, it'll still detect ammonia even if the the ammonia's no longer dangerous. I just have to keep adding more ever 2 days until the tests clear. But for the *NO2* (yea me! ) should I add another tsp of salt, or should I run to Petco for aqua-detox/ nitra-zorb? As alway, any info will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!

[Viktor Jarikov]

I've learned a lot from your post, Bas. I appreciate it.

Wow, just wow! I had no idea how complex a freshwater tank could be. I'm speechless. Again, thank you all.

About the results, I ran the tests again and the numbers are the exact same. According to ammolock, it'll still detect ammonia even if the the ammonia's no longer dangerous. I just have to keep adding more ever 2 days until the tests clear. But for the *NO2* (yea me! ) should I add another tsp of salt, or should I run to Petco for aqua-detox/ nitra-zorb? As alway, any info will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!

Ammonia of 8 ppm is at the limit of the test. You'd be wise to dilute the sample with tap water by 2x, or 4x, to get a reading that is not at the extreme, so then you will know your ammonia concentration better, more accurately, as it could be 10, 12, 14 ppm or who knows.

So if you dilute your sample roughly 2x (half a vial to the line is tank water and half is tap water or bottled water) and say get a reading of 4 ppm, then indeed, you have 8 ppm ammonia (4x2=8). If you still get 8 ppm, then your ammonia is at least 8x2=16 ppm and a 4x dilution as the next step would be warranted.

I'd not add too much ammolock but per label and maybe a moderate excess, like 25%, just in case. Your ammonia test (if needed with the dilution) tells you how much ammonia you got. If your new test says 8 ppm and you added enough ammolock to detox 8 ppm before, then you are all set, you don't need to add more, unless you did a water change, which would take some of the ammolock out, then it needs to be replenished according to how much water was changed out.

Same goes for NO2 (yay you! good job!) Go by the test result. If your NO2 is now say 0.5 ppm - add more salt, 2x more because NO2 is 2x higher. If it is 1 ppm, add 4x more versus what you added to detox 0.25 ppm. If you took some salt out with a water change, replenish the salt; if you changed 50% water, you took out half of the salt, so add half back.

You need not to do anything else or get anything from Petco, if you do this right.

[AMT]

Cool. Thanks so much!

[AMT]

Hi, I'm back. Update: unrelenting ammonia. No kidding. I've done at least (5) 50% and (1) 75% water changes, using Seachem Prime as a water conditioner and Safe Start to reintroduce healthy bacteria. The same pattern emerges. On day of change, .25ppm ammonia. Next day, .50. It subtly rises until I'm able to do another change--about 4 days later. Then it's between 3-4ppm. During the time of rising, however, I dose Seachem every 24-36 hours to detoxify the ammonia.

Nitrites are gone. Nitrates hover between 10-20. Water is beautifully crystal clear. And the weird part? We have no idea where this is coming from. We even took out all the decorations, leaving just fish and sand. And the ammonia still rises.

I stopped feeding flakes weeks ago. He now eats either catfish shrimp wafers, or another bottom feeder pellet (not sure of the name). And he *eats* it immediately. No food lingers in the tank, ever. The filter is Penguin 350, but it doesn't do an adequate job (in my opinion) of cleaning the tank; fish's poop is constantly on the bottom, so I scoop that out immediately, as well. I'd like to get another filter but I'm hesitant at this point.

I've also added Ammo Chips. Change them out after 4-5 days, as recommended, but the ammonia continues to rise instead of fall. What a waste.

Anyway, my own research has turned up empty. Any advice on why I can't get rid of this persistent, ever rising ammonia would be most appreciated. Thank you all!

[Bas Pels]

What you report is odd, very odd.

Firstly, because the transformation from ammonia to nitrite goes easily, and the bacteria doeing this grow rapidly

But secondly, a level of 1 ppm ammonia should result in red inflammation of the fins. I'm quite certain you would have reported this

Now I know nitrite and nitrate tests expire - does your ammonia test also have an expiration date?

[Viktor Jarikov]

What's the tank size remind us please?

I can think of two explanations. One is your biological filtration is undersized for the bio-load, that is the amount of feed you introduce. You were saying you were getting a second filter, but I can't find where you'd say you installed it.

Two, you never explained (I asked but can't find the answer it seems) what you meant by swapping the cartridges in your Penguin bio wheel filter every two weeks or some such. I am afraid you may be regularly disturbing and destroying the bacteria colonies that process ammonia and nitrite.

Unless feed is getting stuck in, under and behind the furniture, which is not the case as you say the fish inhales feed immediately, more objects (aquarium safe) in the tank provide more surface area for the needed bacteria to grow on and to process your ammonia and nitrite.

Safe Start at this point doesn't matter, you can save your money and not add it anymore. You already have a million times more bacteria in your tank (but still not enough) than what you add with the bacteria-seeding agent such as Safe Start, so this is moot.

I am glad to see how proficient you got with the ammonia measurement. This is very good.

Once again, as stated before, I'd recommend to stop feeding until the ammonia is always and firmly at ZERO ppm for some days, a week, and then start feeding little by little and increase the amount slowly (over weeks) and keep measuring ammonia. As soon as you see any non-zero ammonia, reduce the feeding amount back to what it was at the prior step and see if ammonia disappears. Try increasing the feeding amount again in a week or two, and see again what the ammonia does. If the ammonia keeps reappearing as you go over this threshold of the feed amount, then this mean this is the maximum your bio-filtration can cope with and in order to feed more, filtration must be increased.

And while doing all this, please, do NOT disturb the filter except to rinse out the mechanical filtration part, that is the sponge on the intake or before the water enters the main part of the filter where the bio-filtration takes place.

...

Also, if you have to pick up poop manually, this tells me that the water flow is likely too weak in your tank, your filter, if this is the only source of water stirring in your tank is too weak, need more filters or a powerhead or bubblers. The more stirring you have in a tank, the more dissolved oxygen your water will contain, the more needed bacteria can grow everywhere in your system - in the filter, on the walls, on the furniture, in the sand substrate. Having enough dissolved oxygen is EQUALLY important to having enough surface area for the needed bacteria to settle.

...

If nitrites are surely gone, you can forget about adding salt, but as long as your tank shows ANY ammonia, it is prudent to continue checking for the nitrites.

Nitrates of 10-20 ppm is fine. Nothing's needed to be done.

...

I'd not bother with anything else but Prime or Ammolock. As stated before, if you do Ammolock or Prime and the table salt right, you need not anything else. It pays to have a simpler but robust approach which we have been offering to you. I am sure your Ammo-Chips work as thy should and without them you'd see faster and higher rise in ammonia, so it is not a waste but it complicates things unnecessarily at this point in the battle for nitrification of your tank.

HTH.

...But secondly, a level of 1 ppm ammonia should result in red inflammation of the fins. I'm quite certain you would have reported this

Now I know nitrite and nitrate tests expire - does your ammonia test also have an expiration date?

AMT is using Ammolock or Prime to detox ammonia. The liquid API test kit was just bought on our instruction I understood .

[AMT]

Crazy, right?

The tests are brand new and they expire 2025. But I have a correction: The NO2 was 0ppm yesterday, after the water change, but today jumped to .25. Just as the ammonia was .25, but now is .50ppm. This is one day after a 75% water change.

As for his gils, I can't ascertain any inflammation. But then, even after we had a huge, 8ppm+ ammonia spike, I didn't notice any physical changes other than lethargy. He's a dark channel catfish, so for me, I couldn't see a difference.

Could sand retain ammonia? Should I remove that, also? There's nothing else in the tank.

If I get a new filter, will the nitrites spike all over again? We've had this tank/filter going for at least 5-6 weeks and I assume some kind of bacteria is working. After all, we were at 0ppm nitrites for awhile.

I honestly don't know what else to do. I can't keep doing water changes indefinitely, but neither could I seem to find the source.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I don't find this crazy but rather normal. We must find which one of my explanations is true, up the filtration or the stirring or both if needed.

If you see NO2, go on with the salt detox as before, paying attention to the amount and erring on the safe side - it is 100x better to add more than less.

Bas is talking fins, not gills. But you detox ammonia, so this is moot.

Nothing can retain ammonia in your tank, not sand, not decor, not filter etc. Your fish breathes it out just like we breathe out CO2. Plus a smaller contribution from feces, rotting debris if any, etc. No other source of ammonia in your tank.

New filter cannot make any parameter of concern here any worse but only better with time as it is seeded with bacteria floating in the water column in your tank (0.1% of them float, 99.9% sit tight in their colonies, that clear or off white slime that covers everything in tank - this is your good, needed bacteria.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Don't miss my post at 12:10 pm please.

[AMT]

Hi, I just got your reply, Viktor.

40 gal. And yes, good memory; I did place another filter. Same kind, Marineland 200, to go with the 350 (which is supposed to cover up to a 70 gal tank, I believe). But the 200 crapped out after a mere week.

I never touched the biowheels. Hubby has rinsed the charcoal cartridges a couple of times. He also said they were a mucky brown. I cautioned him against using tap water to rinse them, because of the chlorine, but he continued to do so. When I cleaned out the actual filter, I used distilled water and left both the cartridges and biowheels alone.

Poop would get stuck in the decorations, and because we weren't positive the decor wasn't spiking the ammonia, we removed everything.

For the food, I was under the impression to not feed until the water was crystal clear. Once it cleared up, I started feeding him. So, you're saying not to feed at all, until ammonia is absent? I misunderstood.

We have two bubblers going on. One is the line kind, and another is just an air-stone for a decoration (that was removed).

Just a note, he lived in his other tank with the same kind, but smaller version, of filter for 10 years. All was well. We bought the bigger version for this tank and I honestly think it's the crux of our problems. Do you recommend we change filters, and if so, do you have any suggestions (that won't break the bank?)

As always, any info is greatly, greatly appreciated!

[AMT]

Apparently, we're writing at the same time.

[Viktor Jarikov]

40 gal. And yes, good memory; I did place another filter. Same kind, Marineland 200, to go with the 350 (which is supposed to cover up to a 70 gal tank, I believe). But the 200 crapped out after a mere week.
***The gallonage is a rough guide. What really matters is the bioload, or roughly the weight / body volume of the fish in your tank. Your channel catfish at 1' length may be roughly equivalent to a few hundred of neon tetras in bioload. Now a few hundred tetras is probably a LOT more than an average hobbyist keeps in a 70 gal, let alone 40 gal, hence your filtration may easily, easily be undersized.

I never touched the biowheels. Hubby has rinsed the charcoal cartridges a couple of times. He also said they were a mucky brown.
***IMhumO, you are wasting space inside your filter and money with the charcoal filtration. If my experience is of any example, I have NEVER used charcoal (that is chemical) filtration, which I deem rather a sales gimmick than a beneficial thing for wide use. You'll serve yourself a huge favor by using the space to hold biomedia, for biological filtration, which is our current problem at hand.

I cautioned him against using tap water to rinse them, because of the chlorine, but he continued to do so.
***This is not your biomedia, so what you rinse it with doesn't matter much, but in the light of the foregoing, I'd say this is moot.

When I cleaned out the actual filter, I used distilled water and left both the cartridges and biowheels alone.
***OK. What's there left to clean then? An intake sponge (the mechanical part of filtration), is all?

Poop would get stuck in the decorations, and because we weren't positive the decor wasn't spiking the ammonia, we removed everything.
***If your decor causes an accumulation of detritus (can be a source of ammonia), removing it for now sounds sensible. Otherwise, regular vacuum plus better stirring and more powerful filtration with regular mechanical sponge rinsing usually take care of this.

For the food, I was under the impression to not feed until the water was crystal clear. Once it cleared up, I started feeding him. So, you're saying not to feed at all, until ammonia is absent? I misunderstood.
***You didn't misunderstand. You have confused two advisors. I have never mentioned the clear water as the signal to begin to feed. Jools has. Why? I don't know. I am sure if you asked or if he had time, he'd explain. I maintain my initial suggestion of ZERO ammonia as the signal to start feeding little by little.

We have two bubblers going on. One is the line kind, and another is just an air-stone for a decoration (that was removed).
***Strength matters. What size tanks are they rated for?

Just a note, he lived in his other tank with the same kind, but smaller version, of filter for 10 years. All was well.
***You likely fed the fish far less versus now, per our advice.

We bought the bigger version for this tank and I honestly think it's the crux of our problems. Do you recommend we change filters, and if so, do you have any suggestions (that won't break the bank?)
***Biowheel filters are some of the best for biological filtration, they say, but they have ratings and limits. If your 350 is not coping, it is not enough. But this can be established with the procedure I have suggested above: get the ammonia to ZERO ppm, start feeding little by little increasing the amount over weeks (better yet 1-2 months because your tank is still cycling, meaning your bacteria are still growing), not days, and keeping track of ammonia, to find out your biofiltration limit. Once we know this, we can add more filtration (another filter or replace with bigger) and stirring, as needed.