Fish Nutrition

[premiumgreen]

I have compiled a list of questions and answers pertaining to fish nutrition. I ask the members of this board to take a few minutes and read this document and offer your opinion.

Fish Food Questions & Answers

Question: As far as diet is concerned, how many types of fish are there?
Answer: Four consisting of Piscivores, Carnivores, Omnivores and Herbivores
Question: What is a Piscivore?
Answer: A fish that eats other fish.
Question: What is a Carnivore?
Answer: A fish that eats other living creatures including fish, invertebrates, insects, insect larvae etc.
Question: What is an Omnivore?
Answer: A fish that eats other living creatures including fish, invertebrates, insects, insect larvae etc. and plant matter. This group is compromised of opportunistic scavengers eating anything that they can catch and scraps provided by other larger predators. When the previously mentioned items are not available they eat plant matter.
Question: What is an Herbivore?
Answer: A fish that is not a good predator that primarily eats plant matter.
Question: What is protein with a complete amino acid profile?
Answer: It is a protein with all the amino acids needed for your fish to easily convert into energy.
Question: What ingredients in fish food provide protein with a complete amino acid profile?
Answer: Whole Fish Meal, Whole Krill Meal, Squid Meal, Egg Whites, *Shrimp Meal, **Spirulina and ***Soy Meal
* Shrimp Meal is useful for cutting protein but does have higher levels of minerals/ash than the other ingredients
**Spirulina like all other plant matter that I am aware of is high in Omega 6 and low in Omega 3. More on this topic a little later.
***Soybean Meal has 40% - 50% protein and 35% - 40% carbohydrates making it more suitable for Herbivores than the others. More on this topic a little later.
Question: As far as our fish are concerned what is the difference between Omega 6 and Omega 3 fatty acids?
Answer: Fish can only use a limited amount of Omega 6. Excess Omega 6 is stored as fat in the fish’s liver. Many fish biologists believe the resulting fatty liver leads to poor health and a shortened life span. Omega 3 at high levels is good for your fish. In my experience the elevated Omega 3 levels promote increased egg counts and shorter periods between spawns. However once I was feeding my Grow food (30% fat) to 3” Lepidiolamprologus Nkambe and they began developing a gut. I stopped feeding the Grow and began feeding Piscivore and the problem went away.
Question: As far as fish food is concerned what ingredients have a high Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio?
Answer: Soybeans, Wheat, Corn, Rice, Other Grains, Spirulina and other Algae’s, Red Pepper and Garlic.
Question: As far as fish food is concerned what ingredients have a low Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio?
Answer: Whole Fish Meal, Whole Krill Meal, Squid Meal, Shrimp Meal and Fish Oil
Question: Do fat and vitamins have a lifespan?
Answer: Yes once the food is cooked the oxidation clock begins ticking. I have been told by both a chemist and biologist that once the food is cooked there is only a six month window before the fat has become rancid and the vitamins lose their potency. I recommend only buying what you will feed in four months.
Question: Which vitamins do fish need?
Answer: Vitamins A, B-Complex, C, D and K.
Question: Can these vitamins be obtained through ingredients in fish food?
Answer: Yes. Whole Krill Meal, Spirulina and Paprika contain Vitamin A. Whole Fish Meal is rich in the Vitamin B-Complex. Spirulina and Paprika have Vitamin C. Whole Fish Meal and Fish Oil contain Vitamin D. Spirulina and Paprika have Vitamin K.
Question: As far as fish food is concerned what ingredients have a high percentage of carbohydrates?
Answer: Soybeans, Wheat, Corn, Rice, Other Grains, Spirulina and other Algae’s, Red Pepper, Paprika and Garlic.
Question: Which groups of fish do carbohydrates benefit?
Answer: Herbivores and to some degree Omnivores. I am not sure if there is a limit to what percentage of carbohydrates an Herbivore can make use of. With that being said, understand that fish only gain 50% to 65% net energy from carbohydrates. The other 35% to 50% is used breaking down the carbohydrates. My best guess is that Omnivores can make use of 15% to 20% carbohydrates before breaking them down.
Question: Where did the formulas using high percentages of grain come from?
Answer: They came from commercial aquaculture. The goal in commercial aquaculture is to grow a fingerling catfish or trout to saleable size as quickly and cheaply as possible. If you think about it two well known fish food manufacturers had fish farms in Florida for many years before they began making commercial fish food. As hobbyists we have very different goals.
Question: Do Herbivores need more carbohydrates than a Piscivore?
Answer: No. All fish can easily convert protein with a complete amino acid profile and fat to energy.
Question: Are the carbohydrates found in Spirulina better than the carbohydrates found in wheat?
Answer: No but Spirulina has beneficial qualities that wheat does not.
Question: If carbohydrates aren’t needed why do I use ingredients containing high levels of carbohydrates in our food?
Answer: Spirulina enhances the fish’s color in the blue/green spectrum and also increases the fish’s resistance to bacteria. Red Pepper and Paprika enhances the fish’s color in the red/orange spectrum. Wheat Flour is useful in cutting protein in food for Omnivores and Herbivores. High Garlic content is useful in eradicating internal parasites.
Question: Which is the better ingredient wheat flour or soy flour?
Answer: After trying both in my formulas I find wheat flour to be the better choice. Wheat flour does a better job of cutting protein and doesn’t have fat high in Omega 6. Wheat flour does require the addition of lysine to complete its amino acid profile.
Question: What is ingredient splitting?
Answer: It is the practice of using two or three different types of grain so grain is not at the top of the ingredient list.
Question: Why are fish attracted to a fish food that contains over 40% wheat or other grains?
Answer: It is a standard practice in fish food manufacturing to coat the food in hydrolyzed krill. Krill does have the highest attractant value of any fish food ingredient.
Question: Why is egg white a better choice as a binder in foods for Piscivores and Carnivores?
Answer: The chicken egg is the standard by which all protein is judged. Egg whites are approximately eighty-one percent protein with a complete amino acid profile. Egg whites don’t contain fat high in Omega 6.
Question: What minerals/ash is required to maintain healthy fish?
Answer: The short answer is all required are found in Whole Krill Meal, Whole Menhaden Meal, Shrimp Meal, Squid Meal, Spirulina and Garlic. After quite a bit of research this topic is beyond the scope of this document.
Question: Which ingredients bring out color in your fish?
Answer: Whole Krill Meal and Shrimp Meal bring out colors in the red/orange spectrum. Spirulina and Paprika bring out colors in the blue/green spectrum.
Question: Why does fish food contain moisture?
Answer: It is not practical or possible to dry the food to 0% moisture.

Thank you for taking time to read and hopefully comment.

[Bas Pels]

I do miss a few things

firsty, detrivores - fish feeding from waste material. OK these fish get a varied diet, cnsisting mostly of plant materials, but for all practical purposes, they are better concerned as a special group

Secondly, herbivores have long guts - in order to digest the plant meaterial - and if these fish eat high protein food, especially if this is without fibres, they come in problems - bloat, infected gut which can kill them. Ironically enough, the same can be seen with insect eaters coming from fast moving water. Apparently the swimming helps getting the food through the gut - which is missing in calmer water in aquariums. I further think the indigestible scales from insects, shrimps and so on might work exactly as fibers do: they help putting the content through the gut.

Still, I think you intended to warn us against using food for fishfarms in our tanks. I fully agree with that

[mod edit: fix some spelling mistakes -- Mats]

[premiumgreen]

Thank you very much for your reply Bas Pels.

I have searched and can't find any fish classified as Detrivores. However a true Detrivore (diet consisting of dead plant and animals) is an Omnivore. I simply used four categories that most if not all specialized classifications fall into. Another example: Limnovores actually eat algae and micro-organisms in the mud. That makes them Omnivores.

I think that all fish are opportunistic feeders. I have seen pictures of Tropheus raiding a nest of abandoned eggs along with Carnivores. The only sources of energy for fish are protein, fat and carbohydrates. Looking at the fish's digestive tract Piscivores and Carnivores is short meaning they can only benefit from protein and fat. Omnivores have a digestive tract longer than that of Carnivores which indicates they can process protein, fat and some carbohydrates into energy. Herbivores have a long digestive tract which indicates they can turn an unlimited number of carbohydrates into energy along with protein and fat. However keep in mind processing carbohydrates uses around 40% of them resulting in a lower net energy gain. So I believe that as you go down the food chain from Piscivore to Herbivore less energy is required.

Does that help clarify my thinking?

[donpetty]

Wow Premiumgreen,
Great reading-It will take me some time to digest !
Don

[premiumgreen]

I am glad that you enjoyed it Don! Once you have had time to digest the information please come back to discuss.

On a side note I posted this on two cichlid forums and this site. I have to say the people here have shown quite a bit more interest than the cichlid sites. Thanks for showing interest in fish nutrition.

Clay

[donpetty]

Clay,
You asked for a few questions for further discussion and after digestion of your great list here are a few things I had questions or comments on, Thank you!

1. You stated: Question: Do fat and vitamins have a lifespan?
Answer: Yes once the food is cooked the oxidation clock begins ticking. I have been told by both a chemist and biologist that once the food is cooked there is only a six month window before the fat has become rancid and the vitamins lose their potency. I recommend only buying what you will feed in four months.

My question: How does this relate to commercial tropical fish foods such as Tetra, New Life Spectrum, etc,. Where they have been stored for many months in a pet shop and then purchased, opened and left in a warm room, many times for months longer; I have been told all foods with protein should be refrigerated, is this true? Should you refrigerate packaged dried fish foods?

2. You stated: Question: Where did the formulas using high percentages of grain come from?
Answer: They came from commercial aquaculture. The goal in commercial aquaculture is to grow a fingerling catfish or trout to saleable size as quickly and cheaply as possible. If you think about it two well known fish food manufacturers had fish farms in Florida for many years before they began making commercial fish food. As hobbyists we have very different goals.

My question; The use of Trout chow, Carp pellets and other commercial hatchery foods are occasionally talked about here on PC and are fed to tropical fish, It is my opinion that the food should meet the fishes requirements for protein and fat contents? Like commercial dog and cat foods, I believe that the correct ratio of protein and fat is vital for healthy fish depending on species type, is this correct?

Don

[premiumgreen]

My question: How does this relate to commercial tropical fish foods such as Tetra, New Life Spectrum, etc,. Where they have been stored for many months in a pet shop and then purchased, opened and left in a warm room, many times for months longer; I have been told all foods with protein should be refrigerated, is this true? Should you refrigerate packaged dried fish foods?

Unfortunately most fish foods are made, sent to a distributor then sent to the pet stores to sit on a shelf until they are purchased. The end result in most cases is that you end up feeding your fish food with very low levels of vitamins and fat. You can vacuum seal and freeze your food to extend the life but in most cases it is not practical. This is why I stress the importance of feeding fresh food to your fish. Only buy what you will feed in four months. I like refrigerating the food even though I have no scientific reason for it. As long as the food is kept at room temperature and dry the protein is stable. I am currently working with some friends in an effort to produce my dehydrated food on a larger scale. I forgot to mention I dehydrate my food at 130 degrees F. while other food is extruded at around 400 degrees F.. This matters because the higher temperatures reduce the fat and vitamins before it is even packaged.

My question; The use of Trout chow, Carp pellets and other commercial hatchery foods are occasionally talked about here on PC and are fed to tropical fish, It is my opinion that the food should meet the fishes requirements for protein and fat contents? Like commercial dog and cat foods, I believe that the correct ratio of protein and fat is vital for healthy fish depending on species type, is this correct?

The truth is that most fish food is not much better than trout chow and the like. They are simply a regurgitation of the same old grain bound recipes used in the aquaculture industry for years. Quality protein and fat in my opinion are very important to maintaining healthy fish. Since I have been testing my food it has become obvious to me that proper fat percentage in their diet is essential to maintaining healthy fish. By the way healthy fish spawn more frequently and have an increased egg count.

I have a favor to ask of everyone. Take a container of fish food or look up your favorite online and count up the protein, fat, carbohydrates (fiber), minerals or ash and water/moisture percentages. If you don't mind post the total and no you don't have to list the brand.

Clay

[Narwhal72]

I kind of disapprove of vendors using thinly disguised forum posts as advertisements for their products.


Shady.

[premiumgreen]

I am simply educating. I am not promoting anything other than people opening their mind to something that has never been done before. That something is binding fish food with protein instead of grain for carnivorous fish.

[donpetty]

All, I do not disapprove of anyone educating, that's what this site is stated as its intention. If when all of this information is presented and he then offers food for sale; then that is not anything different than someone offering to sell pleco caves or fish. If listed in the appropriate area of PC. If "Premiumgreen" intends to offer his food and posts it correctly, and if it is allowed by the owners of the site, I say fine.

After working years in the "pet industry". I've owned a full line shop and intend to open a fish only shop in the future, I have always been curious about packaged commercial fish foods. When selling dog and cat food, it is important to understand the protein and fat contents when feeding these animals, I have always wondered why different brands of fish foods (when compared) all seem to have the same ingredients and many times the same protein and fat ratios. I am very interested in this subject and want to provide the absolute best nutrition for my fish, which by the way is why I am engaging in this conversation. I at all costs do not mean to offend anyone and will only spend where my dollar is treated best.

Thank you again,
Don

[premiumgreen]

Thanks Don!

Did I provide a satisfactory answer to your questions?

[Birger]

All, I do not disapprove of anyone educating, that's what this site is stated as its intention. If when all of this information is presented and he then offers food for sale; then that is not anything different than someone offering to sell pleco caves or fish. If listed in the appropriate area of PC. If "Premiumgreen" intends to offer his food and posts it correctly, and if it is allowed by the owners of the site, I say fine.

Mod Edit...couldn't have said it better.

[donpetty]

Clay,
Yes I believe so. I will have others; and now that I know that this is your area of expertise...
I may PM you or have other questions for you again, if you don't mind.

Thank you for a nice educational presentation.

I hope you don't mind, but, I saved your post to a MS Word Document to add to my files for future reading and education.

Kindest regards,
Don

[Narwhal72]

Don,
If you want quality information about fish foods I suggest reading the following:
Nutrition and Feeding in Fish by Tom Lowell
Principles of Fish Nutrition by Werner Steffens
Finfish Nutrition and Fish Feeding by the European Inland Fisheries

I could go on and on. There is actually a ton of information on fish nutrition and ingredients backed up with scientific research with actual experimental data out there. The reason why fish food formulas and ingredients come from commercial aquaculture is because they have the time and money to invest in the actual research.

I guess if the mods allow this type of post there is nothing I can do. But don't be fooled by this thread. Just keep in mind that this is clearly a biased viewpoint by someone with an agenda and any information should be taken with a grain of salt.

[premiumgreen]

Hi Don,

Any questions that you have I will do my best to answer.

My original intent in posting this document was to help clarify what is to many fish keepers a confusing topic. I have been studying and making fish food for the last four years. My opinion on various things has changed several times through this process. I hope that I can pass along the knowledge that I have gained on this subject to benefit the hobby.

I am happy that found it worthy of saving to read again later.

Don if you want to try some of my food I will be glad to send you some. Just pm me what you keep and your address.

Clay

[donpetty]

Narwhal72,

Thank you for the book information, I will go see if I can find those titles on Amazon (through PC -of course) LOL!
I do not mean to be disrespectful, and so I apologize if my replay sounds in any way as such.
With that said;
I know you disagree with this thread; but, might I ask you this: Was the information presented disinformation, in that it was not factual? I for one had many of my questions answered. The author asked for comments and so, if you feel that his information is not factual, could you please elaborate on his answers? Regardless of his motive, his information was very educational, in less it was not factual.
Thank you for your consideration.
Don

[premiumgreen]

In my defense I have to say most of the research on aquaculture is the U.S. is done at universities. In my research I have read quite a bit of this information. There focus is maximum weight gain in the shortest amount of time with the cheapest food possible every time. If this is what you see as good for your aquarium fish I really don't know what to say.

Narwhal,

I ask you to produce some evidence to back up your claims that I am shady. If you bother reading and checking what I have written you will find it to be scientifically correct.

It appears to me that you are the one with the agenda.

Clay

[Narwhal72]

Actually there were a lot of not factual statements. But if you read it thoroughly there were a lot of "I believe" statements which may or may not be facts. Those are warning flags to me. Here are two statements that are misleading.

1.

Take a container of fish food or look up your favorite online and count up the protein, fat, carbohydrates (fiber), minerals or ash and water/moisture percentages.

This is misleading. Fiber is the amount of material that is not digestable by gastrointestinal enzymes. Generally, in this context, it is referring to starches and other polysaccharides. So yes Fiber is carbohydrate. However, Fiber is not a measure of monosaccharides, disaccharides, or oligosaccharides that are broken down by the gastrointestinal enzymes. So the fiber content of food does not indicate the amount of carbohydrates in the food. Only a part of it. Herbivores have long digestive tracts so that they can harbor a fauna of gut bacteria that ferment starches making them usable for the fish. The fish isn't expending the energy to break it down. The gut bacteria are.

2.

Answer: They came from commercial aquaculture. The goal in commercial aquaculture is to grow a fingerling catfish or trout to saleable size as quickly and cheaply as possible. If you think about it two well known fish food manufacturers had fish farms in Florida for many years before they began making commercial fish food. As hobbyists we have very different goals.

The goal in commercial aquaculture is to make a marketable product as quickly as possible. It is not just trout and catfish. There are hundreds of species of fish in aquaculture and many more species are done for ornamental aquaculture than for food. He neglects to mention that the two fish food manufacturers that now offer their own food are ornamental aquaculture operations (cichlids in particular) that have been producing top quality and show winning fish for decades. A goal very much inline with hobbyist goals.

Krill Meal is the byproduct produced after the krill oil has been pressed out of it. Although a very good source of protein the HUFA's have been mostly extracted from it.


Let me close with this question. Is it ethical for us to harvest fish from the sea in order to grind them up and process them into fish food to feed to fish we keep in our aquariums purely for our own enjoyment?

Personally, I feel we should be looking at more grain and plant alternatives to fish meal than less.

Andy

[Narwhal72]

In my defense I have to say most of the research on aquaculture is the U.S. is done at universities

Most of the published research is done by universities. Private industry does not publish it's research for proprietary reasons. Private industry does fund a lot of university research too.

Sigh... I have no desire to give this thread any more life than I already have so I will let it go here.

[premiumgreen]

Take a container of fish food or look up your favorite online and count up the protein, fat, carbohydrates (fiber), minerals or ash and water/moisture percentages.

This is misleading. Fiber is the amount of material that is not digestable by gastrointestinal enzymes. Generally, in this context, it is referring to starches and other polysaccharides. So yes Fiber is carbohydrate. However, Fiber is not a measure of monosaccharides, disaccharides, or oligosaccharides that are broken down by the gastrointestinal enzymes. So the fiber content of food does not indicate the amount of carbohydrates in the food. Only a part of it. Herbivores have long digestive tracts so that they can harbor a fauna of gut bacteria that ferment starches making them usable for the fish. The fish isn't expending the energy to break it down. The gut bacteria are.

What is misleading is that fish food manufacturers protein, fat, minerals, carbohydrates and moisture don't add up to 100%. Lets look at how many carbohydrates a couple of food really have.

Food "N" - 34% min. protein, 5% min. fat, 5% fiber, 9% max. minerals ash and 10% max moisture = 63% total
What is missing? Answer: Carbohydrates including fiber is roughly 42%

Food "X" - 38% min. protein, 5% min. fat, 4.5% fiber, 0% max. minerals ash and 10% max moisture = 57.5% total
What is missing? Answer: Carbohydrates and Minerals/Ash (Lets say the ash accounts for 9%) so the carbohydrates including fiber is roughly 38%.

I know you are asking how can he possibly know that. I have worked and reworked formulas so many times in the last four years that I know you can't have protein and fat levels that low without cutting the food with grain.

You are incorrect about fish not expending energy to break down carbohydrates. I will post on this a little later. How can you say foods for carnivores should contain more grain?

Leaving without responding to my rebuttal. Now thats shady!

I will write a more later.

Clay

[Narwhal72]

Because I can't resist (and you misquoted me) I will give one last post on the subject.

You are incorrect about fish not expending energy to break down carbohydrates.

That's not what I said. Go back and read again. Fish don't spend energy to break down starch. While all starch is a carbohydrate, not all carbohydrates are starches. All food requires energy to digest. Simple carbohydrates are broken down by gastrointestinal enzymes like amylase and don't require fermentation by symbiotic bacteria.

How can you say foods for carnivores should contain more grain?

Because it is unethical to feed ornamental fish wild caught fish and there are available alternatives.
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/420/420-256/420-256.html

This is just the first result I pulled up but you can find dozens more by simply googling "artificial diets for carnivorous fish". Knowing the amino acid content of your ingredients allows anyone to mix ingredients in a feed to achieve the correct overrall profile.

You keep bad mouthing starches but they are necessary ingredients as binders in order to hold the food together. Otherwise it crumbles into dust.

While I realize that fish meal provides the best nutritional profile ingredient in fish foods (which is why it is in everything) there are fish meal replacements being developed like Oberon FMR which could one day replace fish meal and take the harvesting pressure off the seas.

Of course if we could start making fish meal with invasive species such as grass carp from the Mississippi or Pterygoplichthys from Mexico I would be all for it.

Andy

[premiumgreen]

My food made for piscivores and carnivores stays together just fine and has less than 2% carbohydrates. It is bound together with protein.

Check out Omega Proteins friend of the sea program. http://www.omegaprotein.com/?page_id=12

You made reference to Rick and Pablo's fish farms. Rick produces some really nice peacocks. However feeding mash to fish in ponds is not the same as feeding fish in your tank at home. Have you seen any data they have on testing they have done in aquariums with their manufactured foods? If you have your name must be Andy Biro.

Food with carbohydrates is fine for herbivores. Omnivores medium length digestive tract allows them to process some (maybe up to 20% carbs. Carnivores can process very little if any carbohydrates. Herbivores do well on a high protein diet or a low protein/high carb diet.

I guess you are happy that krill is off the list of ingredients that can be used in fish food. After being pressed krill meal still has around 6% fat which is almost entirely Omega 3. Plants are high in Omega 6 which in large quantities is not good for the health of your fish. So no the use of more grain in the diets of fish is not a good idea.

Clay

[Narwhal72]

I am pretty sure I know who is making Rick's foods but I won't comment as I am not positive.

Pablo's foods are made by Silver Cup. The biggest aquaculture feed company in the U.S. next to Purina (who isn't strictly fish food) They also produce several other aquarium brands as well. They have a team of nutritionists who test their formulas and develop them. Pablo's food is a bit of let's throw everything in but is very good quality.

I am not happy about krill meal being illegal. It is a great source of protein and increases food palatability greatly. Too bad that FDA has defined krill meal is not the same as shrimp meal and not a GRAS ingredient. Even though it's been in the industry for the last 60 years. But I am pretty sure that Aker Biomarine will eventually get it listed. They are the major supplier of krill meal in the U.S. and already submitted an application. The first attempt was rejected because someone was claiming krill meal was a color enhancer and not just a source of protein. It's still a small market compared to world aquaculture and they could probably sell it elsewhere more easily.

Again you keep lumping carbohydrates and starches together. They are not all the same thing. Glucose and fructose are easily digestible by carnivores, omnivores, and herbivores and important sources of energy.
http://www.aseanfood.info/Articles/11022158.pdf

And actually more use of grains and predigested ferments like Oberon FMR could replace protein from fish meal. As far as getting a 1:5 Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio the addition of krill oil or fish oil to the food could balance that out. It's not perfect but it's a step in the right direction.

Andy

[premiumgreen]

I met Rick a few years back. Actually sat down and spent some time talking with him. He is a nice guy.

What I don't understand is your dislike for me. I am doing nothing but trying to help inform people about fish nutrition. The food that I make for piscivores, carnivores and omnivores currently has no equal on the market. My herbivore food is very similar to the Pablo's Cichlid formula. You seem to like Pablo's foods. I don't understand why you have an axe to grind with me?

From what I hear some people plan on replacing krill with fish hydrolysate (a fish attractant). What do you think about that? I was told today that it may take 1-1/2 years to get a decision on krill. I have a different idea on replacing krill. I want to make some food and do some testing before saying much about it.

I don't imagine you will ever see Oberon FMR in fish food. I don't think the market can bear the increased cost.

What in your mind is wrong with feeding piscivores and carnivores fish meal and crustacean meal bound with protein? As I posted earlier the menhaden industry is self sustaining and the crustacean meals are parts meals. The only carbohydrates or fiber that piscivores or carnivores get in the wild is in the gut of their prey. What is wrong with feeding them something similar?

Clay

[Narwhal72]

I have nothing against you personally. But you started this thread (and others just like it on other forums) as some sort of backdoor advertisement for your brand of foods. Not by posting the positive aspects of your foods. But by posting negative aspects of others. I find it in poor taste. If you had been up front and said. Hey, I make this food and I think it's the best because of yadda yadda yadda I wouldn't of cared. You don't see Pablo or Rick or any other manufacturers using the same marketing tactics.

Fish hydrolysate is the ground up parts of fish after all the meat has been stripped off the carcass (Bones, scales, and organs). It's probably the lowest nutritional value fish product you could put in food. There may be some scent or odor that may improve palatability but you are not going to get the protein content that you would with krill meal and the ash content will go up.

I think I have already expressed my reasons for not liking fish meal in fish foods. There isn't a fishery in the world that is at sustainable levels in reality. Every year commercial fishing becomes more efficient yet worldwide catches are continuing to decrease. As we deplete one fishery we move on to another less desirable species until eventually they are all gone. It's not much but if we could do one thing to make our hobby less destructive on the environment wouldn't it be to everyone's benefit?

[premiumgreen]

From what I can tell your dislike for this thread stems from the quote below.

Question: Where did the formulas using high percentages of grain come from?
Answer: They came from commercial aquaculture. The goal in commercial aquaculture is to grow a fingerling catfish or trout to saleable size as quickly and cheaply as possible. If you think about it two well known fish food manufacturers had fish farms in Florida for many years before they began making commercial fish food. As hobbyists we have very different goals.

I am informing the members of this forum of something that they may not be aware of. Most fish keepers don't have the inside knowledge that you have. It really doesn't matter as it is a fact. The aquaculture industry was different from the tropical fish hobby yesterday as it will be tomorrow. Its really ironic that you put the spotlight on the one thing that you seem to want to cover up.

If the members here are interested in what I am doing they can send me a pm and I will be happy to send them some samples to try. My foods made for piscivores, carnivores, omnivores and herbivores mimics what they eat in the wild. Its really not as complicated as you are trying to make it.

I think that you should warn Rick and Pablo before they go the fish hydrolysate route.

I can't understand your concern for fish that are not edible. Menhaden and herring apparently are sustainable since I haven't seen anyone walking around in a save the menhaden t-shirt. Its in the companies that use this resource best interest to breed these fish and replenish the population. Yet you are good with harvesting krill which has been looked at as a source of food for humans.

Consider this particular horse beaten to death!

[Viktor Jarikov]

I've been following this with much interest but since so much of this is way over my head (that is I do not have the knowledge to estimate the objectiveness, correctness, etc. of the "facts" and "conclusions" being laid out) I am still thinking about my questions to myself. I do appreciate the info much, like Don, and we could do without the negativities and mutual hinted and not-so-hinted accusations A more substantiated discussion of particulars that is better explained for the sake of ignorant ones like myself would be nice. Including decyphering the jargon and the abbreviations.

Thanks both Clay and Andy. Please find the strength to benefit us, the community, and bury your egos, hatchets, knives, etc. Andy, even if you are right (I'm not saying you necessirily are), I tend to believe we can undertand where the science ends and the commercial begins. Not always perfectly but mostly we can. We all have been exposed to informercials Besides, PCF has the greatest set of watchdogs and they have been silent, so all should be good for now.

It's a lot to digest atm but I intend to ask pointed questions later.

[premiumgreen]

Victor... I look forward to trying to answer you pointed questions.

Clay

*edit* I will make an effort to make a simplified and condensed version of the scientific points *edit*

[premiumgreen]

As I said earlier I will do my best to clarify the information provided.

I use "I believe" because the scientific world has differing opinions on many different topics.

For example I believe piscivores and carnivores are best suited for a diet containing minimal amounts of carbohydrates. Why do I believe this?

1)Both eat live prey. The only carbohydrates found in live prey are found in the digestive tract in the form of plant matter. I can't see the digestive tract accounting for more than 5% of the animal. Keep in mind that plant matter is not all carbohydrates. In most cases carbohydrates account for up to 80% of plant matter in a dry state. The plants that fish eat are at least 90% water. Calculations or testing has to be done to get the correct percentages of carbohydrates etc. once the plant matter is dried so it is suitable for use in fish food. In case you were wondering plants grown in the ground are also around 90% water. With all this said taking 5% digestive tract content multiplied by 80% that puts the carbohydrate intake at 4%.

2) Exhibit "A"

Follow the link below to a picture of a carnivores digestive tract compared to a herbivores digestive tract:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... g&dur=2814

As you can see the carnivore's digestive tract is much shorter than the herbivore's. If the purpose of the herbivores long intestinal tract is to extract as much energy as possible from carbohydrates then it is obvious that carnivores can't utilize a high percentage of carbohydrates in their diet.

I hope that this clarifies my position on why carnivorous fish should not be fed a diet high in carbohydrates. As always if you have questions please ask. If you disagree by all means present your argument in a logical way that we all can understand.

I will address the other topics as I have time.

Clay

[premiumgreen]

Is fiber a carbohydrate? Yes

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_fiber_a_carbohydrate

As I said earlier the protein, fat, carbohydrates, minerals or ash and moisture/water should add up to 100%. If it doesn't something has been left out.

An example of how I list ingredients:

Ingredients listed first to last by dry weight: Whole Menhaden Meal, Egg Whites, Crude Fish Oil, Spirulina and Paprika
Protein 64.9%, Fat 19.1%, Carbohydrates 1.7%, Minerals 7.5% and Moisture 6.8%

My asking you to count up the percentages on your food is to simply lead you to the truth. If that is negative then I am guilty.