Otocinclus Breeding

[apistomaster]

Hi Mike N.

I explained at length my theory about shallow water being best for the fry of Sturisoma and other non-pleco loricariidae fry.
It is all in my "Raising Sturisoma" article:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... 3C%2Fem%3E

Perhaps it seems far fetched but I based it on pers com with my Venezuelan fish guru' field observations, Ed Ruiz and my personal experience of getting higher than average survival rates among Sturisoma fry. I happen to think I made some valid assumptions but they are merely my theories subject to testing to determine if I am correct or not. My theories are easily tested using the scientific method.
I think much of what I wrote is applicable to all but the plecos as far as a beginning point if raising Otocinclus, Parotocinclus, Sturisoma Farlowella and many of their relatives.

I use much of what I have learned about hydrology and fish biology as an expert fly fisherman of trout, studying the life cycles of aquatic insects and fish prey species of trout and the way the fry of fish occupy different niches at different stages in their development. I am a very "technical" fly fisherman who has been fly fishing even longer than I have been involved with fish breeding. I design and tie all my own flies and always catch more fish than most fly fishermen on the same lake or stream. They say 10% of all the fishermen catch 90% of the fish and that statement is true. I am definitely among that 10%.

My two passions complement each other very nicely.

[James0816]

Ok, lots of going on today.

- First off...Mama has started laying her next batch of eggs. I didn't bother to count at the moment as I have too much to do.
- Quick scan of the tank and found (6) of the bigger fry guys. Didn't look too hard but didn't like what I saw. Hopefully with how well these guys are growing, they might make the magic mark.
- 50% water change in the fry tank in preparations to move over a very small test batch. I found a stem of L. Arcuata that looks to have about (5) eggs on it. We'll see. Current Flora includes (2) Anubias 'petite', (2) small wads of Java Moss, (1) small Java Fern. I might add a couple assorted stems later. Just want to make sure to have good coverage for them. Still no sign of Diatoms yet but should be starting to develope any time now.
- 25% water change in the holding tank.
- Dripping new water in both the main tank and the CRS tank. This will be my new staple for these two tanks.

Heading back down to finish up for the eve. Will try to get base count of the eggs as of today.

[apistomaster]

I bet you could breed your Otocinclus in a permanent colony type of set up and raise Crystal Red Shrimp in the same tank. I do this with Dwarf Corydoras and Cherry Shrimp for years at a time. I learned the hard way that my fish tanks get too warm in the summer to raise CRS. I began a culture with a couple dozen with some Aspidoras pauciradiatus and by May I had many hundreds of small CRS coming along but then it turned warm in May and the water exceeded 80*F and I lost my entire Crystal Red shrimp colony within a week.
The main point is that the shrimp do not harm the eggs, larvae or fry and if enough plants are provided(I use Tropical Hornwort, Ceratophyllum demersum) the fish will lay their eggs among it's needles and the larvae forage over the large surface area the Hornwort provide so they get plenty of diatoms, algae and the various critters collectively called aufwichs by German aquarists.
I forget what species of Otocinclus you have been breeding but I noticed they are not the type most commonly sold in shops in my area. I like the species you are breeding and I think you are doing a good job with them. I always wanted to breed a related fish, Parotocinclus spilosoma or the smaller species I presently have, Parotocinclus cf. epplyei. I haven't gotten lucky in that department yet but it is encouraging to see others like yourself breeding some Otocinclus.

[James0816]

Thanks. I do currently have a trio of O. Macrospilus in with the CRS. They have displayed some spawning behavior at times but have yet to actually go through the motions. The tank they are in is a 20high. I'm not too fond of it but we'll see how it goes. I have (2) 10s setup and aging. I'm looking for O. Flexilis and Cocama at the moment.

I'm a little concerned at the coming summer to as it relates to the CRS. Right now, I have a very nice colony established of CR/CB. Several adults still berried. But as you mentioned, the heat is what I will need to keep an eye on.

Over in the main breeding tank, I keep yellow and tigers in there as well. They do a good job of removing the fouled eggs before I can which is a plus.

[apistomaster]

I think Cherry Shrimp can survive and breed anywhere from 55*F to 90*F. Very tough little animal.

[2wheelsx2]

I think Cherry Shrimp can survive and breed anywhere from 55*F to 90*F. Very tough little animal.

I am not sure about the breeding, but they are indeed very tough and can survive a range of temps and pH ranges.

[James0816]

Ok, was contimplating moving a crypt over that has (9) eggs on it. After carefull consideration, decided to leave it alone. Moved over 1 stem of L. Acuata and 1 stem of L. Repens for a total of (5) eggs.

10% water change, dripping new gallon as I type

Counted (8) wigglers in the main.

Glad I only moved over a very small amount of eggs. Think the PH in the fry tank is too low (for me at least). It is right around 6.2(ish). Might actually be lower. My goal for the fry is 6.6 for this round of testing. But I can work on the low number and adjust using crushed coral (very tiny amounts) to get it right where I want it.

On a side note, I caught another yellow shrimp molting. Again...Wayyyyyy Kewlness! I tried to snap some pics so we'll see how they come out. He popped out of the skeleton too quick.

[James0816]

As expected, hatching occured today.

The main thing I'm watching in the fry tank. Out of the (5) eggs moved over, (2) were bad. This is not attributed to the tank itself as over in the main tank, most of the eggs in Ludwigia area went foul. The L. x Arcuate stem that had (3) on it faired better. I found one wiggler on the glass and another on a leaf. This particular stem is dying and wilting pretty fast so I can't get a good look at it. The main thing is, with the PH at this level, the eggs will hatch. That's a plus. The tank also has low lighting. It's a Irridescent bulb at "25" watts but not bright at all. Funny thing about it, they say it is designed to grow plants. Doubt that it would at all to grow anything. But it doesn't matter in this tank as darker is better.

Over in the main tank, I did find several non viable eggs on the substrate. Interesting as it took a while for them to foul. Usually in the first 24 hours, I can spot a non-viable egg even before it goes all white. With that, I did not find any wigglers in the Ludwigia area. Didn't seem to be that many eggs there.

Over in the Bacopa and Crypt's, nearly all of those eggs hatched and i found lots of wigglers. I'm putting the hatching rate of this brood at ~ 80%. Rough calculated guess. On the one small crypt that I was going to move over, there are (11) wigglers around it.

Now we see what we can do to keep the numbers. Since it is a small brood, I can experiment just a little. 10% water changes to start tomorrow on both tanks.

[James0816]

Quick morning check before walking out the door.

I started with the main tank first. Still counted all (8) of the older fry. Getting close the magic number. Keeping fingers crossed. Still lots of new wigglers hanging tough at the two day mark. If I get home in time, I may try to get a count. This was a good hatching.

Over in the fry tank, I was also welcomed with a pleasant surprise. Out of the (5) eggs that I moved over, I knew (2) eggs were non-viable. I immediatey found the (2) I knew hatched out. I then located the third wiggler. To my surprise, I found (2) more wigglers. So I moved at least seven eggs and have (5) wigglers in the fry tank at the moment.

[apistomaster]

In WalMart's pet dept they sell incandescent threaded base compact fluorescent daylight(6700K) bulbs which are only about 15 watts and they run cool, last a long time and grow plants well for only about $6.00 each. They are a great replacement for incandescent bulbs.

[James0816]

Checked in on the fry tank and was able to find all (5) little fry guys. Very promising out of the gate. <knock on wood>. Prepping some more food for them as I type. Will introduce a small slice of zucchini at day 5.

Over in the main tank, not as much success there unfortunately. Didn't find too many of the new hatchlings. All the bigger fry guys are still doing their thing.

Water tests pending on both tanks.

[James0816]

Doing 10% water changes today in the main and fry tanks. While removing the water from the fry tank, figured I would see if I can find all the wee ones. Big surprise...I counted (7) in there! Very pleasant surprise I must say. A few of them are growing pretty big for their age. The others are staying within average. Prepping more food for them.

Over in the main tank, uprooted the Bacopa and Ludwigia areas to do a quick vac of those areas. Will be gone over the weekend starting Thursday so need to make sure the water quality is pretty good. Trimmed up the Bacopa and replanted. Running the air stone for a few minutes while things settle. Both adults and fry are very active at the moment.

Will be working on the holding tank tomorrow.

[James0816]

Well...I did a bad...not just a bad but a double bad...and it cost me.

Yesterday's water change. I broke from my usual routine (wasn't thinking). Normally, I would pull out (1) gallon of water from the main tank, take that water and use for the water change in the fry tank. Well...yesterday, I used fresh water on the fry tank.

To make things worse, I wound up doing a 20% water change on the fry tank instead of 10%. Forgot that it is a five gallon tank and need to only pull out 1/2 gallon.

Found the bad news today. Only found (2) fry today. Man am I so upset with myself.

On a better note, I found a so much better way to control the water flow going back into the tank. Instead of tying a knot it the tube and adjusting accordingly, I found an old two-way air manifold that I was using. Hooked it up to the tube and easily adjust the rate to two drops per second. So much easier.

[James0816]

Last update until Monday. Heading out of town for a few days. Crossing fingers that fry will manage with a sitter. ;)

Over in the fry tank, I found both remaining fry in this tank. They are pretty active at the moment. I placed a small piece of zucchini in there yesterday. Will remove it tomorrow before leaving and have another small piece added on Friday.

In the main, all still doing well. Fry guys zipping all over the place in there. Adding another 3/4g fresh water to last through the weekend. I'm anticipating mama to lay eggs at any point. I might even get lucky and she might still lay some tonight for me to move over to the fry tank before leaving.

That's it for now. We'll see everyone back here on Monday.

[dw1305]

Hi all
First of all, I start with the disclaimer that James has been a much more successful Otocinclus breeder than I was, as mine bred without any intervention and I only found out they had when the surviving fry were sub-adult, but I think the James' first quote is the really important one:

I am down to (2) fry in the main tank . Decided to a major scaping yesterday. Had to thin the crypt jungle again. This time I removed the mother plants of the Wendtii and Retrospiralis. Also removed 4 of the larger Retros and 2 Wendtii's. Did 30% water change while doing a good vac of the substrate.

and also Larry (Apistomasters) quote:

The main point is that the shrimp do not harm the eggs, larvae or fry and if enough plants are provided(I use Tropical Hornwort, Ceratophyllum demersum) the fish will lay their eggs among it's needles and the larvae forage over the large surface area the Hornwort provide so they get plenty of diatoms, algae and the various critters collectively called aufwichs by German aquarists..... I think you are doing a good job with them.

I think the remaining problem is that you are doing too much intervention and keeping the tank too clean, by this I'm not suggesting that you should stop changing the water (in fact I change 10% a day in all the tanks) and removing all dead OM, but I would suggest you stop gardening and gravel cleaning. I think a shallow, weedy tank with increased amount of biofilm or Aufwuchs will improve fry survival, it is the technique I use for all my more tricky fry, and I've used it successfully for Dwarf Cories, Apistogramma, Killies and recently Threadfin Rainbows.
I'll post a link to Biofilm by "The Skeptical Aquarist", as he is a much more readable author than I am.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/b ... vbio.shtml

cheers Darrel

[James0816]

Well, finally got down and looked at the tanks. Very dissapointed in the sitter. It is bad. All the tanks were overfed. Absolutely horrible! Where to start:

1) Fry tank. I did not find the two little fry guys when I turned on the light today. I'll check again shortly.
2) Main breeder. Green bottom and some food fuzzing over. Didn't immediately find any casulties in here. Didn't find any of the existing fry but I didn't look very hard at the moment. And...as expected....tons of new fry all over this tank. Puts me in a major quandry of what to do with this tank. I can't adequately remove all this excess food without adversly affecting the fry. I'll do a water test and see about my ammonia level. I have a feeling that I am going to have to sacrifice this brood to get the water quality back. I will pull out 1/2 gallon and fill in with a full gallon. I might be able to syphon some of this out but will have to gravel vac.
3) O. Macrospilus breeder w/ CRS/CBS shrimp. This tank was by far the worst. Almost the entire bottom of the tank was green from all of the food that was at the bottom. Several, several dead shrimp. No adults but all babies. :censored: :censored: . Still have alot of shrimp in there but I sure did loose a lot. So not happy! I immediately started a 10% water change sucking out as many of the dead and most of the food as I could. I will have to do a gravel vac tomorrow to repair the rest of the damage.

Other tanks overfed as well, but not as near the damage.

[James0816]

So I went back to check on the tanks. Nothing at all in the fry tank. Test 1 is now officially closed due to human error. 50% water change scheduled for tomorrow.

I turned on the light for the main tank to better assess the situation. I was really surprised at what I found. I did find all (8) of the older fry and man have they grown. This is the critical week for them. If they make it to Wednesday, their odds increase to nearly 100%. As for the new fry...all I can say is WOW. The tank is absolutely teaming with new wigglers. I have decided to leave the tank as is...for now. There will be no feeding of the tank but will monitor the NH3 very closely.

[James0816]

Main Tank: Fry guys swimming all over the place from just a few days old to three weeks old. Chomping at the bit to do a water change but don't want to mess with anything at this time. Topped off with 1g fresh water.

Fry Tank: 50% water change and ready to go for next round.

Holding Tank: Delayed water change as I was running out of time. Topped off tank with 2.5g fresh water. Annnnnnd....found lots of eggs in here. Not sure but they look like they will be hatching any time now. If not for that, I would move some over.

Here's a couple shots from today: These guys are approaching the three week mark.




And here's a nice group shot. Papa on the left, mama in the middle and another female to the right. Look closely to right of papa oto...you'll find a wee one there. That little guy is just a couple days old.


That makes two males and two females in the main tank.

[2wheelsx2]

Wow, those females are huge....

[James0816]

Quick update as I have a bit to do before the hockey game tonight. Rock the Red!

Holding Tank: Checked this on first since I knew there were eggs that were going to be hatching today. Readily found (6) freshly hatched wigglers. Too much a jungle to see if any others are about. Especially if any are laid in the huge Java Fern. I would never know.

Main Tank: No eggs spotted but decided to see how many fry guys I could count. So ranging from a few days old to my magic three week mark, I counted upwards of (50) in here. <knocks on wood>. Still holding off on any water changes on the tank at this time. The older fry are really working on the excess food that is sitting at the bottom which is why I'm leaving it.

I will do water tests today in leiu of any regular maintence.

Blanching some fresh zucchini as I type. Will add some fresh slices to the tanks later even though there is an abundance of food already in them.

[James0816]

After quite a bit of searching and finding a decent price...I am finally, finally acquiring some O. Cocama. I just ordered (5) of the little guys. Shipping is the kicker but had to do it as couldn't find any one anywhere close to get them. Should be here on Friday. Going through the final prep of their future tank.

I did a last minute audible and chose the 10g with the Flourite substrate over the SMS. It's been aging a lot longer. And since the guys in the holding tank are breeding with the sand substrate, I don't think this will be much an issue. However, if I locate my O. Flexilis, then I will do the tank switcharoo.

[Mike_Noren]

I am finally, finally acquiring some O. Cocama.
--- if I locate my O. Flexilis, then I will do the tank switcharoo.

It will be very interesting to hear how you do with those.

The small species like vittatus and macrospilus occasionally spawn in captivity, but to the best of my knowledge O. flexilis has been bred only once, and O. cocama never. I don't think they're necessarily a lot harder to get to breed, I suspect there's fewer breeding reports because there are far fewer people keeping these larger species.

[James0816]

That's the goal of the project. Time has come to put it to test. Mind you I'm entering with very low expections due to the captivity portion. But, I do have some bit of confidence in seeing how rapidly the Vittatus are breeding. Gives me a glimmer and that's all need to get off the ground.

[James0816]

All looks well today:

Main Tank: Activity and fry visibility remains high. I will have to do a wc tomorrow. Just not liking the condition. The wee ones have discovered the zucchini and life is good...or at least they are acting like it is. ;o)

Holding Tank: Counted (13) wigglers on the glass today. No maintenance scheduled at this time.

New tank will be referred as the Cocama tank. Which as I just learned will not arrive tomorrow as planned. Vendor states that post office said delivery would be two days and not over night. They only included a single 24hr heat pack. So now it will be sometime next week. This will however, allow me to do a little more scaping. I have crypts thinned and sorted. Will be adding/rescaping more tomorrow. Will put up final specs of the tank once complete.

[James0816]

Getting ready to head out to the race. Quick morning check of things and all looks well.

Over in the main tank, the fry are growing very nicely and still remain extremely active. Keeping fingers crossed that this batch will yield quite a few.

Was able to find a few wigglers in the holding tank. Saw a couple of them already hitting the zucchini.

Making another different swing in the O. Cocama tank. This may not be permanent but will aid in the introduction of them to thier new home. I found a piece of Maylasian driftwood that I wasn't using. Bigger than I want but will comfortably fit in the 10g. I will also be adding a piece of slate. With these and the placement of the crypts, this will provide nice spots for them. There is no pattern for the flora so it will be mismatched at this time as well.

Will be adding them tomorrow and adjusting the flora. Will be all set and get my initial readings and other info posted.

[James0816]

Kind of a slow start today. Just now getting around to working on the tanks. Go downstairs and the first thing I wanted to check on were the fry in the holding tank. Seeing some of the adults swimming around, thinking nothing of it. Spot a couple fry. Things are doing pretty well. Then a female comes swimming up from behind the java fern and has (4) males tagging along. She stop on a dwarf sag and the males pounce! It was just amazing to watch this. The guys were all over her. A spawn was occuring right in front of me. Didn't have the camera at the moment and didn't want to make any sudden moves to distract them.

So there I sat in front of the tank for a good 20 minutes watching all this activity all over the place. Saw where she had laid a few eggs on a java fernlet (this one will be moved to the fry tank). Found more eggs on the sags. I then decided that I needed the camera. Got the camera and came back down and the spawn was still going on. They would do their thing and then take a small break and back at it. Was able to snap some shots and video. Going through them now to see how well they turned out.

Shot a couple videos over in the main tank as well. Stand by while I check them out.

[James0816]

Ok...first off...I'm not a peeping tom...I'm scientist. The video you are about to see is in the name of research. ;o)

Luckily it's not too good. This is best one of the spawn. I may upload another one but again, not a good as this one. You'll see the poor little gal literally being hounded by the four males.

[James0816]

Quick update while I fire up the grill.

Doing a 10% water change in the main tank at the moment. Still using the drip method to add the new water. Seem to be getting good results here lately doing it this way. Either that or I'm getting lucky. Fry count and activity remains high. I'm not sure how many eggs were laid while I was gone but I can say that at just over a week, there still remains quite a few in here. It's interesting as you can see the difference in the age groups from 1 to 4 weeks. Only frags of zuc remain. Preping new as well as the new food diet/routine that I do now. This will be the first feeding since returning. Tells you how much gunk was in there. Surprisingly though...the water parms remained consistant. Didn't fluctuate at all. Guess the plants enjoyed it.

Over in the holding tank, I was able to find a few more eggs laid after yesterday. Also counted (6) fry in this tank. Moved over (3) eggs to the hatching/fry tank.

Which now brings us to the fry tank. I'm not sure I will officially call this a test as the egg count is only (3). With such a low number, won't really have much to compare. With that said....pH is sitting nicely at 6.2. One minor adjustment I made to this tank was to add a very small amount of crushed coral. This is how I will regulate the pH. I've started out with a very thin layer at the bottom of a milk jug lid. I'll continue to test daily over the next week to see if I need to adjust it down any. The target of this tank is no more than 6.6.

Confirmed with vendor today that the O. Cocama will ship tomorrow for Thursday arrival.

[James0816]

One more video to get you through the night.

Here's one that shows the wee one snarfing a zucchini.

[James0816]

Quick update on the hatching today. Let's see if I can start simplifying this a bit.

Main: Added 1g of fresh water. Still visibly counted over (50) fry guys in here. Being very careful of what goes on in here as this is the highest brood to date. A piece of zucchini has floated to the top and I had to rescue (4) fry from the top. Otherwise, they would have been trapped as they were on the topside of it.

Holding: (need a better name for this tank) Maybe I'll hold a contest. ;o) Found a few of the new hatchlings and a few of the older fry. Will be going on a pond snail raid soon.

Fry Tank: Of the (3) eggs moved over, I found (2) wigglers today.

OC: Final preps to the tank will be completed tomorrow. Tried to get confirmation from the vendor that they actually shipped today. Haven't heard back as yet.