Acheiving high oxygenation

[mcaquatic]

this has turned out to be an interesting thread. I will let everyone know how it plays out.

[Barbie]

Prazi is totally ineffective against Ich, chilodonella, and oodinium. All of these can exist with no external symptoms, causing quite a bit of stress to the fish due to gill damage. Oodinium especially just suffocates fry as they finish absorbing their yolk sacs, with absolutely no external signs. Without a microscopic evaluation of the newly dead fry, I would not have known either. How exactly are you determining that your quarantine procedure is adequate?

We have a local shop that regularly told people that their fish deaths were due to low dissolved oxygen in their saltwater systems. It took a year or so of me recommending to people to check and do research as to how a water sample that had been in a car hours could then sit in a bag on a counter and still give an accurate DO reading. Needless to say, now he tells them they are low on iodine instead . With that said, I have a friend that has a $700 dissolved oxygen meter. It is accurate at a temperature of 80 degrees, +/- 1 point. My system at the shop, which is heavily stocked, with driftwood and sand in the tanks, usually reads at saturation, with no additional circulation, even in the bottom 4 inches of the tanks. Adequate flow, water changes, and reasonable stocking levels will usually make DO less of a concern than lower levels while there are parasites present. Until I bought a microscope and spent hours trying to describe the different cooties I was seeing, I had no idea how many parasites most fish are carrying in their gills.

Barbie

[racoll]

Seems like stating the obvious, but keeping the tank clean will help a lot in keeping DO levels up. If you have two inches of gravel (like so many aquarists have!), then small bits of food and faeces will slowly accumulate and suck up oxygen as they decompose. Better to have a thin layer of grit/sand, and vacuum regularly. Much cleaner this way.

Same goes for filters. Regularly clean them. I noticed my L260s were breathing heavily last night. I suspect it's because I've been feeding them a lot recently, and not cleaned the filter in a while.

[mcaquatic]

Prazi is totally ineffective against Ich, chilodonella, and oodinium. All of these can exist with no external symptoms, causing quite a bit of stress to the fish due to gill damage. Oodinium especially just suffocates fry as they finish absorbing their yolk sacs, with absolutely no external signs. Without a microscopic evaluation of the newly dead fry, I would not have known either. How exactly are you determining that your quarantine procedure is adequate?

We have a local shop that regularly told people that their fish deaths were due to low dissolved oxygen in their saltwater systems. It took a year or so of me recommending to people to check and do research as to how a water sample that had been in a car hours could then sit in a bag on a counter and still give an accurate DO reading. Needless to say, now he tells them they are low on iodine instead . With that said, I have a friend that has a $700 dissolved oxygen meter. It is accurate at a temperature of 80 degrees, +/- 1 point. My system at the shop, which is heavily stocked, with driftwood and sand in the tanks, usually reads at saturation, with no additional circulation, even in the bottom 4 inches of the tanks. Adequate flow, water changes, and reasonable stocking levels will usually make DO less of a concern than lower levels while there are parasites present. Until I bought a microscope and spent hours trying to describe the different cooties I was seeing, I had no idea how many parasites most fish are carrying in their gills.

Barbie

So you are right about Ich, chilodonella, and oodinium being hard to detect. I have necropsied and done gill clippings on several of the chubbies and do not beleive those to be an issue at this time. Also, a very poor indicator but somewhat of an indicator, I have some relatively fragile stock that is doing very well housed with them. SO I admit there is the possibility for parasties, I do not beleive it is the case here. My quarantine protocol is nothing special but overall sufficient. I use salt and two courses of prazi and make sure they are doing well and then they can join the ranks.
Also interesting enough, I found my smallest chubby pleco looking terrible last night, breathing heavy and sunken eyes. So I threw him in the 26 with the Lei and within 30 minutes was breathing much easier. Also the eyes popped back out this morning. Therefore I am leaning towards oxygen in this case

A while ago I lost one L14 grow out kind of out of the blue. Which I that was due to parasites. I thought I was going to loose a second and was ready to formalin fix him and send him for histopathology, but lucky it never happened. I am pretty sure that was gill flukes. This was a different tank and different fish. I share equiptment between tanks, so always possible.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If you have two inches of gravel (like so many aquarists have!), then small bits of food and faeces will slowly accumulate and suck up oxygen as they decompose. Better to have a thin layer of grit/sand, and vacuum regularly. Much cleaner this way. Same goes for filters. Regularly clean them. I noticed my L260s were breathing heavily last night. I suspect it's because I've been feeding them a lot recently, and not cleaned the filter in a while.

Easy to do, I think we've probably all been there. That is why I like plants, a sand substrate, a pre-filter sponge on the intake of the filter, and a regular syphon. If you see low water flow etc it only takes a minute to clean the pre-filter. If you don't have the pre-filter, the temptation is to leave opening the filter until you have more time, with potentially disastrous results.

So I threw him in the 26 with the Lei and within 30 minutes was breathing much easier. Also the eyes popped back out this morning. Therefore I am leaning towards oxygen in this case

That is one easy way to tell if you have problems with low DO or a high CO2/DO ratio, as long as you catch it in time, recovery is really quick when the fish is placed back into higher DO levels.

We have a local shop that regularly told people that their fish deaths were due to low dissolved oxygen in their saltwater systems. It took a year or so of me recommending to people to check and do research as to how a water sample that had been in a car hours could then sit in a bag on a counter and still give an accurate DO reading.

Yes, any dissolved gases are really difficult to test for. I use the planted tanks in the lab. (during the photo-period), as a quick test of whether the DO meter membranes are damaged. If the meter doesn't fairly quickly equilibrate to about 8mg/l, the membrane is damaged (at about £120 a pop).

cheers Darrel

[nandusnandus]

Although I have little in the way of helping you solve your concerns, I would like to share my similar "chubby" observations.

I house three of these fish, each at approximately 3 inches in length. They've been with me for about 2 1/2 months and have also maintained a frighteningly rapid respiratory rate for the entirety of their time with me.

These fish are housed in a 55g aquarium with a pair of 9" L160 plecos, one 6" Crenicichla cyclostoma, and a group of 3" Retroculus lapidifer. The aquarium is kept at approximately 80 degrees F and is filtered by way of a built-in overflow and trickle filter which is so large that it had to be placed within the stand during its construction, as it won't even begin to fit through the doors or rear of the stand. As I'm not currently home and cannot recall the model of my return pump, I cannot quote the exact flow rate. What I can say is that the water return from the sump is aimed along the surface of the aquarium water and keeps the surface very briskly churning and provides a visible current throughout the aquarium. Additionally, my water changes are automated and consist of approximately 50 gallons of aged tap water being added to the system while allowing the system to overflow into a drain, twice weekly. This water is run through a carbon block prior to entering the aquarium. I spot-check the nitrate levels and always find that they don't even register on my test strips.

The behavior of my Parancistrus is such that they strongly prefer to remain near-to or within a small tangle of driftwood within the aquarium. At feeding time, they become noticeably excited and actively feed upon food-bits that drift near them in the strong aquarium current. These food bits, which are generally intended for the other inhabitants, include brine shrimp and finely diced pieces of mussel. Before lights-out, I place a skewered piece of zucchini within their driftwood tangle. They demolish this zucchini and have nice rounded abdomens, the following morning.

What I think I know:
- Unlikely to be infectious (at least not transmissible), as no other fish in the aquarium have adopted this behavior.
- Very unlikely to be water parameters (oxygenation, pH, nitrate, temp, or anything else), since all fish in this aquarium are Rio Tocantins rapids-dwellers (i.e. all tankmates are native to the exact same waters) and are thriving. Anyone familiar with Retroculus, is probably aware of their notorious insensitivity to low dissolved oxygen levels and other neglectful husbandry. The other fish in this aquarium are absolutely thriving.
- Despite the tachypnea, the chubbies seem otherwise healthy, based on their vigorous feeding habits.

Other considerations:
- When these fish arrived via FedEx in early December, they were in very rough condition. The temp of the transport water was in the low 60s (F). Of the eight sent to me, one was DOA, a couple others died shortly thereafter, and another a couple others lingered for a variable length of time with a strange white epidermal lesion, which appeared to result in their demise.

I am aware that my observations lack much objective data (water parameter measurements). Due to inaccuracies in testing methods and our often-inept ability to appropriately apply these measurements (assumptions about native water conditions, accepting what others have documented as factual, etc.), and my laziness, I often feel more-comfortable using comparative information (tankmate behavior, especially when from the same environment within the same water system/river).

So, I find it plausible that these fish could have suffered some degree of permanent damage, such as to their gills, from the obviously traumatic shipping. Despite saying this, I do realize that there are plenty of other physiologic reasons to have an increased respiratory rate (i.e. compensation for a metabolic acidosis, etc.). Alternatively, could this be a normal, albeit surprising, physiologic trait? Given others' observations of this pleco with a typical-appearing respiratory rate, I have trouble believing that this tachypnea is "normal" for the chubby.

I doubt any of the above is particularly helpful. Even so, I wanted to keep the dialogue alive.

[mcaquatic]

Although I have little in the way of helping you solve your concerns, I would like to share my similar "chubby" observations.

I house three of these fish, each at approximately 3 inches in length. They've been with me for about 2 1/2 months and have also maintained a frighteningly rapid respiratory rate for the entirety of their time with me.

These fish are housed in a 55g aquarium with a pair of 9" L160 plecos, one 6" Crenicichla cyclostoma, and a group of 3" Retroculus lapidifer. The aquarium is kept at approximately 80 degrees F and is filtered by way of a built-in overflow and trickle filter which is so large that it had to be placed within the stand during its construction, as it won't even begin to fit through the doors or rear of the stand. As I'm not currently home and cannot recall the model of my return pump, I cannot quote the exact flow rate. What I can say is that the water return from the sump is aimed along the surface of the aquarium water and keeps the surface very briskly churning and provides a visible current throughout the aquarium. Additionally, my water changes are automated and consist of approximately 50 gallons of aged tap water being added to the system while allowing the system to overflow into a drain, twice weekly. This water is run through a carbon block prior to entering the aquarium. I spot-check the nitrate levels and always find that they don't even register on my test strips.

The behavior of my Parancistrus is such that they strongly prefer to remain near-to or within a small tangle of driftwood within the aquarium. At feeding time, they become noticeably excited and actively feed upon food-bits that drift near them in the strong aquarium current. These food bits, which are generally intended for the other inhabitants, include brine shrimp and finely diced pieces of mussel. Before lights-out, I place a skewered piece of zucchini within their driftwood tangle. They demolish this zucchini and have nice rounded abdomens, the following morning.

What I think I know:
- Unlikely to be infectious (at least not transmissible), as no other fish in the aquarium have adopted this behavior.
- Very unlikely to be water parameters (oxygenation, pH, nitrate, temp, or anything else), since all fish in this aquarium are Rio Tocantins rapids-dwellers (i.e. all tankmates are native to the exact same waters) and are thriving. Anyone familiar with Retroculus, is probably aware of their notorious insensitivity to low dissolved oxygen levels and other neglectful husbandry. The other fish in this aquarium are absolutely thriving.
- Despite the tachypnea, the chubbies seem otherwise healthy, based on their vigorous feeding habits.

Other considerations:
- When these fish arrived via FedEx in early December, they were in very rough condition. The temp of the transport water was in the low 60s (F). Of the eight sent to me, one was DOA, a couple others died shortly thereafter, and another a couple others lingered for a variable length of time with a strange white epidermal lesion, which appeared to result in their demise.

I am aware that my observations lack much objective data (water parameter measurements). Due to inaccuracies in testing methods and our often-inept ability to appropriately apply these measurements (assumptions about native water conditions, accepting what others have documented as factual, etc.), and my laziness, I often feel more-comfortable using comparative information (tankmate behavior, especially when from the same environment within the same water system/river).

So, I find it plausible that these fish could have suffered some degree of permanent damage, such as to their gills, from the obviously traumatic shipping. Despite saying this, I do realize that there are plenty of other physiologic reasons to have an increased respiratory rate (i.e. compensation for a metabolic acidosis, etc.). Alternatively, could this be a normal, albeit surprising, physiologic trait? Given others' observations of this pleco with a typical-appearing respiratory rate, I have trouble believing that this tachypnea is "normal" for the chubby.

I doubt any of the above is particularly helpful. Even so, I wanted to keep the dialogue alive.

thank you for posting. That was very informative. Another thing I have noticed that the larger ones that where breathing fast when in my 90g are breathing at a normal rate now in my 125, which has a lot more flow and air pumps

[racoll]

Fascinating observations nandusnandus.

Another interesting thing is that

Parancistrus

have enormous gill openings. The only other loricariids that have these are

Pogonopoma

and

Rhinelepis

. From Armbruster's loricariid homepage:

In her review of the genus, Rapp Py-Daniel (1989) stated that the only time P. aurantiacus was collected was when the river had dried to isolated pools. She suggested that the large gill openings may be an adaptation to low oxygen levels. Rhinelepis similarly has large gill openings but also has a diverticulum hypothesized to act as an accessory respiratory system (Armbruster, 1998). It is possible that the expanded gill openings are not associated with respiration and may be due to some other factor such as feeding.

[nandusnandus]

Thank you, Racoll. I read that excerpt at one point, too. Intuitively, if these fish do survive in hostile, poorly oxygenated pools and have evolved to tolerate such conditions, I have to believe that they should have respiratory reserve. In effect, they should be exceptionally tolerant of low levels of decreased oxygen levels in the aquarium. If I take this to heart, I then surmise that my rapid-breathers are suffering from either another environmental problem (i.e. not the oxygen level) or are simply "damaged" fish.

thank you for posting. That was very informative. Another thing I have noticed that the larger ones that where breathing fast when in my 90g are breathing at a normal rate now in my 125, which has a lot more flow and air pumps

I managed to acquire several more specimens two weeks ago. While the original fish remain tachypnic, the new chubbies have a slower, less-labored (i.e. normal-appearing) respiratory rate. This, along with reasoning documented in my original post, should largely eliminate the notion that environmental parameters are to blame for the high respiratory rate of my original fish. Instead, it seems as though my original chubbies are simply broken. Perhaps it isn't even directly related to their respiratory function. Could they have suffered a hepatic injury along the way and now require the elevated respiratory rate in order to aid in the clearance of ammonia? It's doubtful; I know. I'm just rambling, at this point.

[mcaquatic]

Fascinating observations nandusnandus.

Another interesting thing is that

Parancistrus

have enormous gill openings. The only other loricariids that have these are

Pogonopoma

and

Rhinelepis

. From Armbruster's loricariid homepage:

In her review of the genus, Rapp Py-Daniel (1989) stated that the only time P. aurantiacus was collected was when the river had dried to isolated pools. She suggested that the large gill openings may be an adaptation to low oxygen levels. Rhinelepis similarly has large gill openings but also has a diverticulum hypothesized to act as an accessory respiratory system (Armbruster, 1998). It is possible that the expanded gill openings are not associated with respiration and may be due to some other factor such as feeding.

Thanks for posting. I am almost positive this was found to be incorrect, but I can't remember where I read it. Will have to look further for it.