Lost 11/2 of my ABN pair - now my male is very agitated - what can i do to settle him?

[pleconut]

Just lost my ABN female. Have a pair. The female was full of eggs i think she was egg-bound - I'd found her behind the wood blown up like a balloon. She had some scratches on her sides so I think there was a spawning attempt. Now the male is quite upset and agitated - thinking about it he had a ripe female in the tank he was trying to attract/spawn with and now she isn't there anymore. I have been trying to source one locally but with no results I have been able to find an LFS that can get me an adult in a couple of weeks if i can't find one in the meantime. (Plus the QT to consider). So guess he's going to be single for a while. Don't want to put him in with other fish, just in case of an underlying health problem. There was a recent whitespot outbreak. It's cleared up now though. So he's all alone in the tank. What can I do to make it slightly better for him. Will moving the caves out help?

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,

Sorry for your loss. Are you sure the female didn't have bloat or an internal infection? (you'd probably have to cut her open to know for sure).

Regards, Eric

[pleconut]

She was definitely gravid. Although not eating for some time. So I think bloat can be ruled out. Male seems healthy.

[bekateen]

A fish can be gravid and still have bloat. To say she was egg-bound is to imply that the large ovaries are responsible for her death. But she could be full of eggs, and if sick for other reasons, would not spawn; that doesn't mean the ovaries killed her.

And if they had bloat, my understanding is that feeding would stop before they die because they feel so bad.

Regards, Eric

[pleconut]

Don't quite get what the problem may have been what I need to figure out is what follows. What I do with the male on his own, between the time it will take to find him and QT a female. The last two females I introduced ended up dead. So don't want to go back to same source.

[pleconut]

In regards to whether or not there is a potential health concern with him, do I just follow what would in effect be a QT process with him. I set up a tank and have some plecos arriving later this week. I'd put him in this tank if it wasn't for the health implications in relation to the cause of the death of the female.

[iSynoCat]

Just leave the male in there. He'll settle down eventually. As for introducing anew female wait a few weeks then redecorate the tank when you add her so the male will be preoccupied exploring his new territory. Also expect him to give the female a bit of trouble but they should be alrightm. If the tank is large enough consider adding a few females.

[pleconut]

Tank would be big enough for three i should think. But i already have him plus a normal BN pair. He seems fine, preoccupied ATM with eating his veggies. I Don't think there's any health concerns with him, but IMO still much safer to leave him as he is.

[Jobro]

Sorry for your loss. No need to do anytrhing, if he is still fine. Just do a big waterchange or two. No need to rush for finding a new mate asap. He will get over it in no time.

[pleconut]

Thanks he seems ok. All that fanning to attract her into his cave seems to have made him hungry.

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,

I realize that many fishkeepers don't have the strength for this, but given that you've lost two females now, it might be worth your while to cut open this female while she's still relatively "fresh" and inspect the organs inside her. I've given this advice a few times before to other members and once I provided instructions for how to cut the body open; they are here: Re: Bristlenose plec with bloated stomach.

Whether or not she's egg-bound, you will probably find two very large ovaries, each full of eggs. You may even find some eggs in the tubes (oviducts). If all the eggs are in the ovaries and not in the oviduct tubes, then she was not egg-bound. That phrase is typically reserved for a female which is trying to pass eggs out of her oviducts but the tubes are blocked, preventing the eggs from leaving. But if eggs are in the oviducts, then the female MAY be egg-bound (but this still isn't the definitive conclusion: i.e., maybe she was about to lay the eggs and her oviducts are normal, but she died by coincidence before she could lay them). You probably will not be able to know for sure if she was "egg-bound" unless you don't see any other abnormalities in the abdomen (see below). If everything else looks good in the abdomen, then death by being egg-bound is a realistic possibility. I would also expect that the eggs in the oviducts, or the oviducts themselves, would be an off color (the eggs should be yellowish due to all the yolk, and the oviducts should be light pink or almost transparent normally).

After cutting open the abdomen and inspecting the ovaries, move the ovaries out of the way (one to the left and the other to the right, like doors) to expose the digestive tract. If the fish has bloat, I would expect to see a segment of the gut expanded significantly compared to other portions. This may be a gas-filled expansion or it may be full of food.

A healthy gut tube should look light pink in color with red blood vessels spread around it, resembling streets on a city map or a spider web or a fish net. If there is a bacterial infection, the expanded portion of the gut tube should be more reddish than light pink, like a person with a fever, instead of the pale pink color, and the blood vessels should look dramatically bigger than normal.

The other organ which might show dramatic change is the liver. If you cut the fish open and the organ that seems to fill the majority of the abdominal volume is a solid dark red color, then you are probably looking at an enlarged liver. Under normal conditions, the liver is a very large organ, but it shouldn't be any larger than the normal size of a fish's abdomen. So if it is the object which seems oversized, then you've found at least a symptom of the problem.

If you do this, take lots of pictures as you go from step to step, and share them here if possible. Perhaps we can help you sort out the cause.

Regards, Eric

[pleconut]

Bit sqeamish lol! But what i can say is her papillae was bright red with a yellow disharge. And she'd had swollen in the belly area to almost twice the size since yesterday. She was upside down on the substrate having difficulty breathing prior to her death. Also looked like the male had given her really a hard time attempting to spawn she had some red marks and badly torn fins.

[pleconut]

These were taken pics last weekend -top and the weekend before- bottom she'd not changed in size much until in the 12-24 hours before she died.

[bekateen]

That's okay, don't worry about it.

A yellow discharge is never good. When one of my females died, she had a yellow discharge too, which I interpreted to be leaking yolk from ruptured eggs in the oviducts. But my female also had her abdomen ripped open by the dad, so I interpreted the yellow ooze to be the result of egg rupture AFTER the female was already dead, not being egg bound (although it is possible she was egg bound, and the male ripped her open fighting with her while trying to get her to cooperate and mate).

I'm starting to think someone should write a Shane's World paper about the internal anatomy of plecos with photos of "normal" organs and organs with various problems. However that would require someone with access to lots of plecos at the time of death to really be of any help.

Regards, Eric

[bekateen]

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20160409_055344.jpg

These were taken pics last weekend and the weekend before she'd not changed in size much until in the 12-24 hours before she died.

Pictures didn't attach.

[pleconut]

Just reposted. Not sure if they work I can see them.

[bekateen]

Yes pictures work now, thanks.

[pleconut]

Seems she'd been the same size for a while this was the last time she ate.