Deciding on a new tank to buy

[pictus_man_77]

Hi everyone,

So, here's the deal. After a long while away from fishkeeping, im ready to come back in. Ive decided I want a tank about 120 litres, and ive decided on two tanks. the Fluval Roma 125, and the Juwel Rekord 120.
Not, I know theres 5 litres difference, but im not too bothered because ive found them both at about the same price. What will be the deciding factor is what the quality of the equipment that comes with them is.

Can anyone chime in with a mini review of the equipment on these tanks? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Ollie

[medaka]

HI Pictus_man

Nice to see you back here

Personal preference here I'm affraid I can't add much as I think they are as good as each other. However!

If you want, pop along to Midland Waterlife in your town, and ask Richard there about them , he's pretty cued up, as well as being one of the nice guys in the trade

[MatsP]

If we start with the tank itself:
Dimensions
Fluval: 80 x 35 x 45 (floor: 2800 cm2)
Juwel: 101 x 31 x 46 (floor: 3131 cm2)
To my mind floor-space is more important than volume, so the Juwel wins this one.

Lights:
Fluval: 2x20w
Juwel: 1x30w
If you want a planted tank, the Fluval wins. For most catfish, more lights is not better. Your choice.

Filter:
Fluval: 3 Plus.
Juwel: Filter Set 400.
I personally prefer the Juwel fitler. Juwel wins this one.

Heater:
Fluval: 150w
Juwel: 100w
Fluval wins this one on two counts: More wattage -> allows you to run higher temperature without running out of heater capacity, and the Juwel heaters have no temperature scale (and I've broken two Juwel heaters in the past 3-4 years. I know, heaters don't last forever, but I have the ONLY heaters I've broken so far have been Juwel ones).

Bonus points to Fluval for the thermometer. It doesn't cost more than a couple of quid to buy one, but it's obviously better to have one in the box.

The final score is pretty much equal, both have good points, and bad points.

--
Mats

[pictus_man_77]

MatsP,

Thank you ever so much, that was EXACTLY what I wanted! Wasn't expecting to get all the info from one person! And cheers Medaka for the suggestion to Midlands Waterlife, they've helped me out in the past .
Cheers guys,


Ollie

[MatsP]

By the way, I have a Fluval Duo Deep 800, which is the previous model corresponding to the Fluval Roma 125 - same size actual tank, then only main difference is the shape of the hood. The original Fluval filter in this tank has been replaced by the largest available Fluval filter, and it's just about adequate for the relatively high stocking level the tank has.

I also have three different Juwel tanks, a Rio 400 and two Rekord (60, 70) ones.

If I were to buy a new tank today to go in my fish-room, I wouldn't buy a kit. I would buy the TANK on it's own (simple all-glass tank) and get an external canister filter, and a VisiTherm heater.

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Mats

[pictus_man_77]

I was considering that route actually, but I think I'd rather go with a kit setup, and learn a bit more about the hardware of aquariums, specifically lighting and external filters, e.g What models to go for, how to set them up, etc.

But I'm sure as i'll be working in a fish shop, i'll learn that sort of thing as I go.
So, think of this tank as just something for me just to break into fishkeeping again, then ill move on to a fully custom setup when I've learned some more.

Also, I'll be sure to ask you guys lots of question along the way, after all, that's what you're here for


Cheers again,
Ollie

[CFC]

It is mine and many other peoples experience that the Juwel tanks are actually of very poor quality and suffer from a whole host of problems which Juwel are more than aware of but still haven't fixed despite the problems being ongoing for at least the last 7 years.

The most common fault is with the lights where the electronic starter gear seems to fail after around a year, although i will admit this seems to be mainly those from the Rio range. Those that fail in under a year get replaced free of charge, those over a year cost the owner another £70 for a replacement.

The second most common fault is that the plastic center brace snaps where it joins the plastic rim around the tank which causes the front and rear glass to bow alarmingly, Juwels answer is to send you a new plastic brace and some glue but it shouldn't be happening in the first place.

The third highest complaint is that the heaters stick on and over heat the tank, although this is a potential problem with all bi metalic strip heaters it seems to happen with juwel heaters more often than most. The heaters supplied with the largest tanks are also seriously under powered for the water volume.

Fourthly the powerheads that run the large unsightly filter box suffer from the impellors sticking after a year or so of running, one day you notice your fish are hanging near the surface and when you investigate you find the pump has just stopped for no reason, give it a little tap and it starts again, until next time when you are away for the weekend.

I have owned 2 juwel tanks and had all four of the above problems happen over a time frame of about 2 years while the tanks were being used, i also moderate on a fairly large aquarium forum where these issues are bought up on an almost weekly basis.

My advice being the owner of some 20 aquariums is either buy all the items individually or if you must have a kit tank spend a little more money and buy one of the Rena tanks which are expensive but fantastic quality.

[pictus_man_77]

Wow, Cheers for that addition to the thread CFC!

Im going to have to go away and have another long think about this! Ah well, from what I remember, half the fun of fishkeeping was dreaming about stuff you don't have yet

[MatsP]

Whilst I haven't got the same experience as CFC, I would argue that the Fluval internal filters are no better than the internal ones in the Juwel. The filter itself is on par with a half-decent external filter in capacity and need of cleaning, compared to the Fluval internals that I have a couple of, and that require at least weekly cleaning to work at all.

Yes, the box is not exactly "pretty", but I have actually still got my "box" despite not having the filter in there any longer in my RIO 400 - because it hides the pipes of my external filter.

--
Mats

[pictus_man_77]

Interesting.

MatsP, could you recommend an external filter for this volume of water? Bearing in Mind my tank isn't going to be the messiest of tanks, im considering a shoal of Harlequin rasboras, and a BN pl*c as the complete stock list.

[Bas Pels]

I have no experience with any brand of tank - because all my tanks are custom made

As you are in the UK, you will not be interested in any address I might provide, but the idea might stil lbe worthwile

I'm very glad with internal filters, but than these are large. As an example:

A 9 feet tank, (2.3 feed broad, 2 feet high) has an internal filter measurig 1 * 2 feet, and 2 feet high. I have blue mattrasses in it, each measuring 2 * 1 feet. The filter contains 8 % of the total water in the tank, and the water goed 3 times an hour through this filter

For a smaller tank the same idea applies. the filter is build by gluing a sheet of glas in the tank, with a hole in it to conntect with the pump

As stated, surface is more important than hight, thus all my tanks have the height as the smallest dimension (which is rare for branded tanks)

[TP]

I have recent bought two Rio 300's and although I think the tanks look great I have been really disappointed in the quality of the equipment that is provided with them, reading CFC's post is a bit worrying as I have had both heaters stick on, one of the pumps go already and they've only been going about 5 months. I guess I have the plastic brace to look forward too which will worry me!. The filters I find difficult to clean as well. Because of the issues with the pump (and I don't feel I can trust it as I go away a fair bit) I have added external filters to both these tanks and will remove the internal one eventually. It is a shame as I think they Juwel are really letting themselves down.

This brings me on to your filter question.

I have external filters from Ehiem, Fluval and Tetratec. I'm not greatly impressed by the fluval, the Ehiem are obviously great quality but the ones that have me pleasantly surprised are the Tetratec filters. I have a EX600 and EX1200 and they have worked flawlessly, are easy to take apart and clean (which isn't required very often) and seem great value for money as well. With your tank being quite lightly stocked I think the 600 would work pretty well and you can pick one up for £45 or so, a 1200 you can get for £60 which is a lot of filter for the money.

[MatsP]

All filters have their strong and weak points. I think the strongest point of the typical "stick on with suction cups" internal filter (such as the Fluval X plus models) is that they cost very little to buy, and this is what makes them popular.

If we look at what makes one filter better than another, it generally comes down to one thing: Volume and type of filter media. Most of the less expensive filters use a media that is based on sponges [by the way, I'm pretty sure Bas doesn't have a mattress, but a sponge mat in the tank]. Other media include Bio Balls and "stone macaroni" (little ceramic pipes that look like hollow pasta shapes). The purpose of filter media is two-fold:
1. Be a "home" to the niterobacteria that process the ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. This is called biological filtration.
2. Gather up bigger lumps of loose matter that would otherwise make the tank look untidy. This is called Mechanical filtration.

Where, usually, external filters come into their own is the volume of filter media - the filter canister is much larger than the typical internal filter. This makes the typical external filter more efficient and less maintenance.

Of course, the type of filter where the whole side or back of a tank is "double-glazed" and filter placed in the gap between the outer and inner space is a different category of internal filter, and there is now a decent amount of space to put filter media in. It is still an internal filter in the sense that there is no water leaving the tank to go to a filter.

Another form of external filtration is a sump-filter, where another tank [or set of tanks] is used to hold the filter media, and the water is pumped to the main tank from the sump, and an overflow system allows the water to flow down to the sump system. The biggest drawback with a sump filter system is that you have to drill a hole in the main tank to allow the overflow of water to exit to the sump.

Both the sump and the external filter have the advantage of adding to the total volume of water. Particularly in small tanks, for example, a EX1200 filter has a volume of 12 liter, so if you add that to a 120 liter tank, it adds around 10% to the total volume of water [yes, the filter media takes up some space, but it's not a huge portion as it's very hollow, and the tank probably has an equal amount of gravel, rocks, wood and other stuff that take up a bit of water volume in the tank - I certain can see the water level go down if I take out all of my decorations in the Rio 400].

[CFC]

The best value for money external filters in my opinion are the good old Eheim Classic series, very basic design with no thrills but they do the job they are meant to do and last forever. For the tank size you are thinking of the smallest model, the Eheim 2213, would be ample and i believe you can pick them up for around the £50 mark supplied with media and all the fittings. The down side to the classic series is that they don't have self priming so if you accidently lose the syphon in the drain hose they can be a bit of hassle to get going again, nothing too difficult as all you have to do is give a good suck on the hose to get the water flowing again and reconnect the quick release connections, but its not as easy as pushing a button like you do on the more expensive filters.

Another thing i recomend avoiding like the plague is Fluval external filters, people keep trying to tell me they have got better but i had two 303 models which were nothing but trouble and eventually both ended up dumping the contents of their tanks onto the floor of the rented flat we lived in, i wouldn't accept one if it were given to me free.

[pictus_man_77]

Thanks ever so much for all the advice and suggestions guys, this thread has once again proved to me that this is really the only fishkeeping forum I will ever need to look through!

Cheers,
Ollie

[MatsP]

I have nothing specifically against the Eheim Classic - they are great filters, but the last three filters I've bought have been TetraTec, because at least with my local shops pricing, the difference between the same size or next size smaller Eheim Classic and the TetraTec is a few pounds either way, and the TetraTec has media baskets, prime button and quick-release hoses [1] (not as fancy as the Eheim Pro II that I also have, but at half the price, you don't expect ALL the features).

[1] Sometimes "quick-release" is included in the Eheim Classic packages, but not always.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

[by the way, I'm pretty sure Bas doesn't have a mattress, but a sponge mat in the tank].

oops. My true nature revealed

[Bigpig]

This is an interesting thread.
Heres my input;
If buying a kit, have a good look at the lid to see how easy it will be to carry out tank cleaning etc.
I have a Jewul Rekord 96, and to get to the filter you need to remove the whole lid, which I found to be a bit of extra hassle that I dont need. I removed the internal filter and now use an external.
Also as someone has already said, when the lighting starter goes, you need to replace the whole lid, which costs about £50!!!

[MatsP]

I have a Jewul Rekord 96, and to get to the filter you need to remove the whole lid, which I found to be a bit of extra hassle that I dont need. I removed the internal filter and now use an external.

And of course, once you have removed the internal filter and bought an external one, you probably have paid more than you would have if you bought the tank on it's own with an external filter and a light-unit of your choice.

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Mats

[pictus_man_77]

and a light-unit of your choice.

And that's where I'd be lost
I wouldn't know where to begin looking for or what companies make light units!

Ollie

[MatsP]

Well, depends on what you are after. If you want LOTS of light (e.g. planted tank), the T5 units are very good (but rather expensive, around £150 for just the lights to go on a 100cm tank), or you can just get the standard single flourescent tube of the right length. If you buy an all-glass tank from someone who makes tanks, then they usually have some form of lighting units that go with the tank, so that's a third option.

My fish room uses standard tubes (one 1050mm/38W unit per tank, which is enough as long as I stay with plants that don't need massive amounts of light). That's about £40 for the control unit and the flourescent tube.

--
Mats

[taksan]

The comments on Juwel's have been enlightening as I really like the look of the Vision 450 but now I'm leery of buying one. That said I wouldn't be using the filter or heater (I'd drill the tank for a Eheim 2180) but the light and bracing issues seriously worry me. I think I'll go with a Aqua One for my bowfront Aquarium instead.

[racoll]

I would second all the comments made previously regarding Fluvals and internal filters etc.

The best value for money external filters in my opinion are the good old Eheim Classic series, very basic design with no thrills but they do the job they are meant to do and last forever.

ABSOLUTELY. Best filters around and no question. I have bought many different kinds of filter over the the years and nothing comes close to these for reliability and ease of use.

I run one on almost every single tank I have. One I have was purchased over 15 years ago, and has given me continuous and sterling service over that time. Recently though it has started to make a lot of noise and not been pumping much water, so I bought a new impeller for a tenner and its working again like it was brand new! I'm sure it will now give me another 15 years of filtration!

You can pick these up here for £55 including hose, taps, media and home delivery.

I have recently helped set up a tank using one of the Eheim Aquaball internal filters, and they are streets ahead of other internal filters. Loads of media and they work really nicely.

I would still recommend you save up the extra cash and get an external filter, especially for a small tank, as there will be minimal equipment on view. If you have a low stocking, you will rarely have to clean it out either!

[calsonic]

the one thing i can say about fluval internals is that the media for them is expensive it costs me £2 more to buy the floss/cotton for my externals that being said thoe i dont like cutting it myself with the jewl tanks the finish is not as good quality as the fluvals the silicon looks like its been put in by a kid in the jewl tanks and the bundeld kit with the fluval tanks are good i have a aqua one tank but i dont think i will bother with them again