Need help keeping whiptail eggs in the cave

[Thriftyfisher]

So here is my problem, I am hoping that I can get some good suggestions on how to fix this.

Several years ago I purchased wild Rineloricaria sp. “Peru” (that is what I purchased it as but I have never been able to positively ID them so that is what I still refer to them as). They bred for me like no other fish, at one point I had over 500 fry (all from 1 male and 4 females). A couple years ago, I sold off the breeding group and most of the fry but kept about 50 fry to grow out and breed/sell later.

For the last 6 months, I have been breeding these now adult fish. I have no problem getting eggs. However, the eggs keep being kicked out of the cave. I have tried different cave sizes and shapes with no luck. I have used caves of PVC and clay; I have used open ended and closed ended caves, still no luck. I have split the group into smaller groups and even down to just one male and one female, all with the same result. I cannot figure out how to get these fish to keep from kicking the eggs out of the cave.

I have tried to put the eggs back in the caves with no success, the male leaves and the eggs are completely covered with sand and will not stick to the cave.

I would prefer not to try artificially incubating these eggs since once they start breeding correctly the males do a great job of caring for the eggs and they are easy breeders with great survival rates.

Any suggestions anyone has would be greatly welcomed.

Thanks

I like photos, so the one below is of my original male doing it right, fry are on the top of the cave with eggs underneath the male. He would breed with all of the females in the matter of 1-2 days and brood up to 80 eggs at a time.

[apistomaster]

I do not have an answer but I have had difficulties with breeding my F1 Sturisoma aureum. I would get many spawns and fry but the males were not as good at providing brood care as my original wild specimens. I never understood why so many would eat or abandon their eggs. Many males did fine but none of my wild fish ever failed to finish their jobs.
It reminds me of my experience with breeding Discus and Apistogramma. Some are inveterate egg eaters and others raise their broods no matter what.

All these types of experiences have caused me not to ask why fish do or do not provide their classic brood care. In most cases it is impossible to answer these questions.
I think all we can do is speculate about the reasons and keep trying and hope for the best.

[Andypex]

Forgive my ignorance but do you believe this to be a behavioural problem with your breeding male or simply a physical problem with eggs "falling out" of the cave??

I only ask as i have some experience with breeding Hypans and have had a problem previously where egg's were being kicked out of the cave.....I think this was due to the male being immature and not being able to "manage" the eggs. I added a small piece of slate, maybe only 4-5mm thick underneath the front of the cave to slightly increase the angle of the cave, this basically kept the eggs at the bag of the cave (via gravity) and solved my problem.

I know it sounds obvious but maybe try the same?? one thing i did notice though was that if the angle was to steep, the male tended to abandon the cave.

Andy

[Thriftyfisher]

Thanks for the idea, it is worth givng that a try. In looking at my closed ended caves, the angle is down with the opening slightly lower.

However, the eggs are adheasive and should be stuck down. With my orignal group the only time I found eggs at the front of the cave was when the male was already brooding eggs, didn't want more and the female dropped them at the entrance. In my current group the male is letting the females into the caves just kicking the eggs out.

[apistomaster]

Most whiptails attach their adhesive eggs to a smooth substrate instead of producing loose egg mass like Hypancistrus so their eggs are usually eaten rather than dislodged.

[Thriftyfisher]

Well, I thought I would give an update. It appears that tilting the entrance of the cave may have helped, thanks for the suggestion Andypex. During the last spawning events in the two tanks I tried this with both males actually had eggs that stayed in the cave. One male spawned with three females. The last female about 20 eggs were in the cave although not entirely placed in a tight formation. The male has done a pretty good job with the eggs. However, a week into brooding I only count 7 eggs left. They should hatch out tomorrow. I have him in a separate tank to be able to better control the newly hatched fry.

Once they do, I will put him back into his tank, with 4 females, and see what happens on the next breeding event. We are expecting a rather big weather change here so hopefully I will be able to get him back into the tank and settled before that.

These eggs are adhesive but what appears to be happening is the male is under the female and the female can't attach her eggs to the bottom of the cave before the male kicks them out. The f2 males also seem to do a bad job of limiting only one female into the cave at a time, which might also be a problem.

The first photo shows the orientation of a cave in one of the tanks where I have these fish. I actually tilted this cave up while they were spawning which is why he only has 4-5 eggs. The rest of the eggs where in various locations from piled in front of the cave to somewhere in the process of beign kicked out. Hopefully, this will be a learning brood for him and the next spawning event will go better.

The second photo shows the cave which is in a 1 gallon plastic tank which is suspended in a 10 gallon tank. My basement gets cold during the winter (60-65deg F) so I use this method for hatching eggs and growing out fry for the first few weeks. During the warmer months, I just stack these little tanks all over the place.