Breeding Hybrid Synos?

[Plecodoras]

Hi all,

Now I know I'm going to be lambasted for this posting, but you have to be brave and take any comments for what they are!
I posted my first posting on this forum, under the heading Whats My Cat?/Syno confusion - Decorus ? help!

and got quite a response, which I gratefully accepted the content.

Now bare in mind my last post was this

Re: Syno Confusion - decorus ? help!

Postby Plecodoras » Sat May 12, 2012 12:31 pm
Thank You to all who have replied to this posting, most helpfull.

Birger cheers for the link, I have read it all, it sure does seem to open a huge debate and as I said I do not condone any such treatment but I do have my own views too.
For the record I do NOT know anything about Synodontis Hybrids and that Iam new to the hobby, have kept fish for over 20 years but have only been able to devote anytime real time to the hobby as I do now. Iam near to completing a fish house and want to specialise in corys and plecs mainly, but I love ALL species.
These fish caught my eye in a local fs, they were priced at £5 each, so from what you all say then they are most likely hybrids.
But do we not see hybridisation in the wild, we do here in europe with our native coldwater fish.
Fish that live in the same eco systems and breed side by side so to so speak will, produce hybrids and who is to say that several of the fish which have been caught in these eco systems are in fact hybrids, but because they were wild caught and have been there for hundreds of years they are classed as a species in there own right....

I know man made hybridisation is another thing all together, but don't lets forget it does happen in the wild as well.
Again thanks to all.

My question is: Can you breed hybrid Syno's or is it true that all hybrids are infertile?
Also is it true that hybrid syno's don't have the branched upper whiskers?
Please bare reference to my comments above.

Thanks Again Planet Catfish - keep up the good work.!

[racoll]

Can you breed hybrid Syno's or is it true that all hybrids are infertile?

Some hybrids are fertile, and some aren't.

It's hard to tell without testing it, and seeing as most synos don't exactly breed like guppies in the home aquarium, probably almost impossible to do so.

Why do you ask? Just curious, or do you want to try it?

[Plecodoras]

Hi Racoll,

More curious than anything, and have heard conflickting answers.
Though I wouldn't rule it out if it was possible, of course only naturally not with cutting open the females etc, not into harming fishes in anyway.

Also wondered about the brached whiskers issue too?

Thanks.

(Mod Edit- took out your second duplicate posting.Birger)

[Birger]

There is a difference in being curious (as I think you are) and purposely making comments which are known to start a nasty discussion(trolling) which unfortunately does happen...again I am hoping you are the former...

Also is it true that hybrid syno's don't have the branched upper whiskers?

Lets get the easy one out of the way...this comment would have been aimed more at decora type hybrids...in Synodontis the mandibular barbels are branched in only a very few species...decora being one of these, many of the decora lookalike hybrids look very much the same as a true decora...but as far as I know they do not have them being produced with branched mandibular barbels (yet).

Can you breed hybrid Syno's or is it true that all hybrids are infertile?

Having them breed in a tank may be very very difficult, maybe even more so than most true syno species are but I am sure it is possible they could be hormone bred the same as most hybrid syno's are being produced today and is probably the way some of the odd mixes we have seen are being produced.
I will also use for an example the Tanganyikan syno's

Synodontis lucipinnis

and

Synodontis petricola

that were thought to be the same for many years and possibly have been naturally bred together...there is no proof of this for or against but it is possible this happened and their young may be out there.

Please bare reference to my comments above.

I am not getting what those comments you refer to have to do with the two questions you have asked.

Hybrids are sometimes a natural occurance yes, it does happen with many species of animals all over the world...can I ask why you have this infatuation with hybrid syno's?

Birger

[Richard B]

they do not have them being produced with branched mandibular barbels (yet).

I am becoming more concerned that this will soon, (perhaps even now) not be a reliable method of telling genuine fom hybrid individuals.

The hybrid decora has been seen in what i take to be 3 or 4 "morphs" - i am unsure if these are decora crossed with a different species in each case or a genuine crossed with an F1 or F2 hybrid in an attempt to get ever closer to the real thing.

I saw some grandiops the other day that were 'perfect' except for the leading hard ray of the dorsal that was white, in with some other hybrids which were gfar less convincing....the people creating these are getting very close to exact copies of some species i feel

[Plecodoras]

Thanks for your replies guys and last comments from Richard b.

Birger,

I am not inflatuated with the hybrid synos, but as you point out curious... curious to find out more about them.

Since posting the syno help decorus post got quite a reaction from a few, I thought I must have hit a nerve. My reference to my above posting was purely to point out that I do Not know about this subject and purely want to know more.

I have seen plenty of fish in my local fs and want to be able to identify to a certain reliability, if what I am buying is a hybrid or not. Like many on here I enjoy showing off my fish to other hobbyists, but imagine my embarrassment when some guy or gal says - "hey you supporting the killing of pure synos?" just because I like a few have bought a hybrid without knowing! and hence why I asked about the branched upper barbels / whiskers.
At the moment my lfs has some Petricola's and I cannot tell because they are small, if indeed they have the branching or not, and wondered if this is the most reliable. I was also told that hybrids are infertile, so wanted to clear this up for myself before buying a tankfull ....

As for posting to cause a nasty response this was not my intention at all - as explained.

I know it is a touchy subject and that's also why I was trying to be diplomatic about it.. !

For the record I saw my first Angelicus yesterday, a guy bought the two the shop had, they were absolutely gorgeous, priced at £40 each and about 8 or 9 inches long.

Thanks.

[Richard B]

Petricola's and I cannot tell because they are small, if indeed they have the branching or not,

Petricola do not exhibit this feature on their 'main' barbels like decora do.

If you are unsure about whether the species is genuine or not a pic quickly posted here will usually get a fairly swift response. There are hybrids galore out there but if you search them out, there are some genuine beauties to be had. Eg today i picked up a 2"

synodontis robertsi

The chances of fertile hybrids breeding in a tank is so low it's (IMHO) negligible.

[Viktor Jarikov]

If you lived in the US, your statistical chances of buying a purebred or a hybrid syno would be about 50%/50% a few years ago. Today, it is starting to feel (to me) the hybrids are winning the numbers war.

I wish you lots of luck in learning your synos... but from what I read here, even syno experts like Birger, Richard B, Jippo and Co hit books, sci papers, and revisions often trying to ID purebred synos. That discourages me personally to even try and tackle this huge genus with so many look-alikes. Furthermore, not all wild synos have been subjected to taxonomy. Moreover, throw in the hybrids? No thanks - until I own a catalog of the photos of all synos of all possible color variants and at a few age stages, I don't think I stand a chance of seriously mastering syno deciphering.

[Birger]

Eg today i picked up a 2" synodontis robertsi

Arrggg...when you find six or so of these hang on to them for me...buddy

until I own a catalog of the photos of all synos of all possible color variants and at a few age stages

That is funny...before I went to the UK I actually made up my own homemade ID binder of what I thought each species should look like....I am already revising it.

Birger

[racoll]

I have seen plenty of fish in my local fs and want to be able to identify to a certain reliability, if what I am buying is a hybrid or not.

The key here is having a good relationship with your supplier. A good shop will know where their fish come from, perhaps not exactly, but they will certainly know if they're wild caught or Czech bred. If the shop doesn't know, won't tell you, or can't be bothered to find out for you, it's best given a miss IMO.

Price, size, and name are another giveaway. If the fish are small, cheap (less than a tenner), or have a made up name (e.g. Synodontis zebrinus, or "valentine") they're probably hybrids.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Good points by Racoll no doubt... but still consider things before judging. Things are rarely black and white. I know of a few LFS, which I consider good, but who have no time or desire to work that closely with any one of us, average buyers. You have to have an edge to ask for a special service (unfortunately it should not be anything special but this world is far from ideal) - either buy a lot or benefit the store in other ways.

That is funny...before I went to the UK I actually made up my own homemade ID binder of what I thought each species should look like....I am already revising it.

IMO, this is how serious experts are born. The perk of this stage and age is that one can create an electronic database to fill a hole either in their personal library or to fill a hole that no book/field guide can fill for you.

[racoll]

I know of a few LFS, which I consider good, but who have no time or desire to work that closely with any one of us, average buyers. You have to have an edge to ask for a special service

Sad, but true enough. I do find you get a better response from them when they aren't really busy. A Saturday morning, for example, is usually a bad time!

[clydeboy]

There are hybrids galore out there but if you search them out, there are some genuine beauties to be had. Eg today i picked up a 2"

synodontis robertsi

I was told to forget ever owning one of these...

If you dont mind me asking Birger....Whereja gettim, was he expensive, and finally, can you get me wan?

Ian (Roberts) no relation to Tyson.

[Viktor Jarikov]

If you read more carefully/fully, you will see it is Richard B who got that syno, which, in turn, should get you even more excited as it was in UK, not the home country of Birger - Canada.

[racoll]

day i picked up a 2" synodontis robertsi ... I was told to forget ever owning one of these...

Sorry to derail the thread further, but I picked up a trio of S. robertsi in the UK a few years back. They came via Neil Hardy, so they are available occasionally.

[clydeboy]

If you read more carefully/fully, you will see it is Richard B who got that syno, which, in turn, should get you even more excited as it was in UK, not the home country of Birger - Canada.

I know. Richard B p.md me which made me realise my mistake.....doh
I'm now, however, on the case, and hopefully I'll track one down.

Ian