Can you ID this Synodontis?

[redtigrinus]

I bought 6 of these little guys a couple weeks ago. But Im not sure what they are. They were labeled as Synodontis longirostris in the store but I'm pretty sure they are not that. My initial guess was dhonti, irsacae, or tanganicae but Im not sure. I was leaning more toward tanganicae because of a pic I found online that of course I cant seem to locate again. But Im hoping they're irsacae. But they may be none of the above. Anyone care to weigh in?

Above is a poll. Let me know what you think. And if you think its none of the species I mentioned let me know what you think it might be.

Thanks.

[redtigrinus]

Found this pic online just now. This is a Synodontis irsacae. This fish is much larger than the one featured above but there are some similarities.

[Richard B]

The first hard ray of the dorsal looks white, which means lucipinnis, petricola or a hybrid

[redtigrinus]

The thought of this fish being a hybrid did cross my mind yesterday as I was taking these photos. Only because I have had them for a 3 weeks at most and the have already grown nearly a quarter of an inch. I know hybrids tend grow a bit faster than their pure counter parts. I feel comfortable saying they are not lucipinnis or petricola as I have both and they dont look that similar to me. What led me to believe that they may be tanganicae, irsacae, or dhonti was the nose. Its a bit elongated. More so than that of petricola and lucipinnis. At least this is my opinion. It would suck if the fish were a hybrid but I'm hoping to find evidence that the fish is not.

[Richard B]

Dhonti is only known from a single specimen & is much confused in literature - so it won't be that species.

To me these look like young Lucipinnis. How big are they? I've has both young tanganicae and irsacae at 2" body length and they looked nothing like your fish (much deeper body, longer snout).

[redtigrinus]

They are easily 3 inches.

[Birger]

I do like to give the benifit of the doubt and try to place them before calling "hybrid", but...

The first hard ray of the dorsal looks white, which means lucipinnis, petricola or a hybrid

I agree with this...I know of no others, not even among other possible species that may be described yet...and rules out the others species already mentioned.

The name longirostris being used for hybrids is not new, it is slightly different than others that have been called this, a big difference being the white dorsal spine...kind of a wierd shape to him as well just does not look right, hard to explain that.

Your little photo tank does not show his color well either I have a feeling that is off as well, can we see one in a tank.

You did so well on your last homework assignment here is more...sent you some reading to your email, hope you do not mind, it could be useful.

Birger

[redtigrinus]

Your little photo tank does not show his color well either I have a feeling that is off as well, can we see one in a tank.

Yea I know its not the greatest it just a specimen cup with a light over it. These guys are really hard to photograph because they never and I do mean never stop moving! Getting a shot of them in the tank would be near impossible. I took like 100 pics just to get the few I posted. That being said I dont have a real camera and have been using my wife's ipad to take pics. and I know thats washing the color out a bit. They are more gold than the pic shows. I'll see if I can get a better pic over the weekend.

[redtigrinus]

You did so well on your last homework assignment here is more...sent you some reading to your email, hope you do not mind, it could be useful.

I got the email. Thanks for the info. I'll take a look at it this weekend and see what I can find out. I know what you mean about them looking weird. They dont look quite like a petricola or a lucipinnis to me and after researching the other fish I thought it might be I agree that it isnt any of those either. I dont know what they are. I dont want to call them a hybrid but it seems like all signs are pointing in that direction.

[redtigrinus]

Here are some pics I took with a little point and shoot camera. They are a little better but not the best. Hope this helps with the ID.

[redtigrinus]

Couple more

[Birger]

Still odd to me...the long humeral,odd snout, tall dorsal, quite slim(and the name)...you are not going to find a described species that matches...as far as undescribed possibilities I have not seen or know of anything that matches.

Again I like to give the benefit of the doubt but if you followed the trail this fish took to get to your tank I would say it went through Eastern Europe(ask the dealer). My guess and it is only that as I do not like playing the guessing game only pointing out attributes I see...to me the sneaky guys made a luci X grandiops mix.

I would like to see them in a year though?

Birger

[redtigrinus]

Still odd to me...the long humeral,odd snout, tall dorsal, quite slim(and the name)...you are not going to find a described species that matches...as far as undescribed possibilities I have not seen or know of anything that matches.

Again I like to give the benefit of the doubt but if you followed the trail this fish took to get to your tank I would say it went through Eastern Europe(ask the dealer). My guess and it is only that as I do not like playing the guessing game only pointing out attributes I see...to me the sneaky guys made a luci X grandiops mix.

I would like to see them in a year though?

Birger

I have to agree with this whole statement. I bought these fish while I was on a road trip. I dont even remember the name of the store I got them from. Just saw them and thought they were one of the 3 I mentioned and bought them. Thought I was getting a great deal since I talked them down on the price. Not so sure anymore. Not a bad looking fish but worth the money if it is in fact a hybrid.

[Birger]

Not a bad looking fish

that is the sneaky part...someone has put some thought into this one and it looks like something that could come out of the lake and will fool many people...I have a feeling this is not the last time we will be asked about them.

I hope I would be wrong but I doubt it.

Birger

[redtigrinus]

Its not a bad looking fish but I feel cheated for what I paid for them if they are in fact a hybrid. These guy definitely look like they came straight from the the lake.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Would you share what you paid? 6 is a good group, warranting a discount, so what was the original price and the final price? Don't if you don't feel like it. It is not a mere nosiness of mine. Price often, but not always, indicates hybrids from not.

They are cute. And if they are hybrids, which looks pretty much definitive atm, it's not their fault. Do come back with pics as they grow: first you will firm up the ID, second, these are the kinds of threads that carry the most meaningful info for the fellow fish keepers, IMHO.

[redtigrinus]

Sure. I paid $25 each for them. They were originally $35 each. I'll keep them until they no longer appeal to me. Despite the fact that they may be a hybrid I still enjoy them. It's just a bit disappointing since I thought they might be one of the fish I have been searching for. I really would like some synodontis irsacae but can't seem to find them. Guess its a bit of a hard pill to swallow for me.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sorry, mate. It'd be hard to swallow for any one. Usually hybrids do not exceed $10 per 2"-3"-er.

My hypothesis is: someone somewhere produced a very good-looking and quite close to an authentic-looking syno hybrid, perhaps using very expensive and rare parents, perhaps for the first time or some such. They named them (falsely) Synodontis longirostris - quite a rare syno and expensive too. They priced them accordingly.

Don't know the size of your little guys, but they look like ~3" TL. I may be way off, but a 3" Synodontis longirostris would probably run for $100 if not hundreds. Again, when the fish is so rare (I've never ever seen one live and only seen a few photographed ones), all bets are often off. Our UK colleagues tell Synodontis longirostris used to be common in the trade 20-30 years ago.

Well, for $150 you've got a nicely sized group of 6 very cute synos. It's not all that awful and much worse things happen, like people buying one 3" Synodontis granulosus for $300 and finding out they bought a hybrid. This happens. Syno trade is riddled with hybrids and shady production and sales practices like no other!

Try, if you will and can, to focus on the positive and learn your lesson too. Not having a collection of syno field guides, papers, and genus revisions, I do not dare to ID synos much at all, leaving it to great and kind experts like Birger and Richard B and others here, armed with decades of ID-ying experience and right books.

[Birger]

Syno trade is riddled with hybrids and shady production and sales practices like no other!

I think it is just something wre have to deal with and is not just unique to syno's but is happening in Hypancistrus, Ancistrus, Cories and Pim's to name a few that had recent posts mentioning the "H" word. We just need to stay aware of instead of comepletely shunning...on a positive note I see more places advertising hybrids as just that and I think some dealers also realize the appeal of "real" species.

All this has also helped to bring some interest back to syno's after being overshadowed by the Loricriid gold rush. I know of fish collectors that are asking for information and what they may find as they explore different areas...a good sign of things to come and am looking forward to hopefully seeing syno's we have not seen for many many years.

Birger

[redtigrinus]

I knew these werent Synodontis longirostris because they didnt look like them and you're absolutely right, they wouldve cost way more money than what they were asking for the fish. I have lost more money in worst ways, whats killing me is not the fact that I may have over paid for a fish, but more so that I thought the search for a fish I have been looking for for over a year was over. I have been looking high and low for Synodontis irsacae. Every dealer tells me the same thing. That the collectors only regonize 3 species petricola, multipunctatus, and granulosa. So, if they see something that looks like a petricola even if its not a petricola gets it gets called a petricola. So irsacae could very well be coming in but they are being called petricola. I just got some polli that was sold to me as petricola! Its unfortunate that collectors wont take the time to properly identify these fish. And a lot fish stores will sell the fish under the name they bought them even if they know its wrong. I went to a lfs where they were calling a Tiger shovelnose catfish (Pseudoplatystoma fasciatum) a Tigrinus shovelnose catfish (Brachyplatystoma tigrinum). I told them several times for months that that was not the correct name for that fish and that it was not a true tigrinus. They insisted it was and wouldnt change it. The fish was about 18" and $200. I told them a true tigrinus at the size would cost between $800 - $1200 retail. They thought I was a joke and blew me off. Even after I gave them evidence that they were misleading there customers they kept insisting that it was a true tigrinus and a different color morph of the fish. Whatever!

I hope the growing interest in synos does encourage people to properly ID them, but I'm not holding my breath. If anyone knows of a reliable source for synos that will ship that info would be greatly appreciated.

[Birger]

Even after I gave them evidence that they were misleading there customers they kept insisting that it was a true tigrinus and a different color morph of the fish. Whatever!

Don't fret to much on this buyer beware and all that... happens often, sometimes it even works in your favor....

. If anyone knows of a reliable source for synos that will ship that info would be greatly appreciated.

Synodontis irsacae is recognizable at least...Synodontis ilebrevis I would like to find, might be getting lost in with polli's.

For irsacae talk to Dave here http://www.davesfish.com/

Birger

[Dave Rinaldo]

If anyone knows of a reliable source for synos that will ship that info would be greatly appreciated.

Dave's Rare Aquarium Fish.
Dave works to properly ID fish and always keeps his stock list updated.

If you click on a name, it will show a pic , most, taken by Dave.

He has this fish listed as

Synodontis irsacae

'Zambia'.

Synodontis irsacae.jpg (69.4 KiB) Viewed 1515 times

[redtigrinus]

I saw those but wasnt sure if I should pursue them because Im looking for a fish that will end up looking like the one in the attached photo and based on the photo on Dave's website I wasnt sure it this fish would become that.

[redtigrinus]

This is what I really want. I fish identical to this specimen!
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=2285

[Viktor Jarikov]

You are very specific Nothing wrong at all, just a first for me. You must also know your synos pretty good. Just curios (this time : ) is this originating in Feng shui or some such aesthetic scheme?

[redtigrinus]

You are very specific Nothing wrong at all, just a first for me. You must also know your synos pretty good. Just curios (this time : ) is this originating in Feng shui or some such aesthetic scheme?

LOL! Yes I am a bit particular about this one. If you look at the irsacae page on this site it kinda seems like there are 2 different forms. Unless they grow up to look different. The smaller fish look a bit different from the larger ones. Different enough where I question if the young specimens will grow up to look like the larger specimens pictured.

This has nothing to do with Feng shui or some such aesthetic scheme. I just really like the look of that particular fish.