id please

[wet-handed]

This maybe a easy one for some but i keep second guessing myself.Wrong id at lfs they labled l204

[krazyGeoff]

L129 ?

Hypancistrus debilittera

[tomr]

this is no gaurantee, but my lfs sells these as 129

[The.Dark.One]

I'd go with L129 too. It's not L204

[jac]

For me it is

Hypancistrus sp(l340)

.

[wet-handed]

I bought two fish that day, the second is female an dose not have the yellow lines, more off white. The prob is hes on eggs, an need a positve id. Sorry for being such a noob. I dont want any hybrids. I will try get pics of female soon shes very reclusive since day one. I cant get any better shots of him, he's caved up. What shall i do if they are hybrid fry,cull?

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I will try get pics of female soon shes very reclusive since day one. I cant get any better shots of him, he's caved up. What shall i do if they are hybrid fry,cull?

Not necessarily, the different L numbers don't necessarily mean that L129 and

L340

are different species.

Each "L number" really only relates to the original fish that was imported and photographed. The "L numbers" were initially intended to reduce confusion (after "Transfish" started importing large numbers of scientifically un-described Loricariids). Because of this, Rainer Stawikowski, editor DATZ (Die Aquarien und Terrarienzeitschrift), came up with the idea of the L-number system, and "L" just stands for Loricariidae.

The species that L129 belongs to has been scientifically named, and it is now

Hypancistrus debilittera

(Armbruster, Lujan & Taphorn, 2007). L340/LDA019 (you'll have to look up the why we have LDA numbers as well) has never been scientifically described, and may be a closely related species, or it may fall within the genetic variability of H. debiliterra (sensu stricto).

Milton etc. might need to tidy this up a bit, as I haven't been involved in any Taxonomy for a long time, and it gets a bit scientific after this, but for a species to be scientifically described you need:
Holotype
When a fish is scientifically described and the name published, it has to have the appropriate scientific information collected with it, this is called "metadata" and belongs to the described fish. The described fish is the "type" specimen that all other specimens of that species are compared to, the original collection is the "holotype" and is kept in a museum somewhere so researchers can access it, take DNA etc.. If a number of specimens have been collected with meta-data, they are described as the "type series".

I won't go into "Paratype" etc., but this is the reason that a lot of "L number" plecs are scientifically un-described, they can't be named from specimens imported into Europe etc. because they don't have the collection location, etc required for the meta-data and no holotype = no scientific name.

cheers Darrel

[wet-handed]

i do not fully get what your trying to say. Does that mean that some could breed two Hypans that are not scientifically described just because there both hypancistrus?

[dw1305]

Hi all,

i do not fully get what your trying to say. Does that mean that some could breed two Hypans that are not scientifically described just because there both hypancistrus?

Sort of, lots of

Hypancistrus

, that are distinctly different in appearance will hybridise. Have a look at "Alger"s thread, where this inadvertently happened to him <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... rus+hybrid>.

All this proves is that the Hypancistrus L numbers are fairly closely related to one another, and the majority of cases of L number hybrids have occurred within the genus Hypancistrus.

We think that speciation is actively occurring in many of the Loricariids, your best bet for an over-view of this would be the "Armbruster Lab" pages at Auburn University - <http://www.auburn.edu/academic/science_ ... index.html>. Milton Tan ("Suckermouth" from PC) is a researcher at Auburn <http://www.auburn.edu/~armbrjw/Armbrust ... eople.html>, working on the "Ecology and evolution of ancistrin loricariid catfishes".

With

L340

and

Hypancistrus debilittera

specifically the situation is slightly different, we know that they are very, very closely related, and occur in the same river system. The major difference between them appears to be the number of pre-maxillary teeth, but even that difference is not clear cut.

It is probable that L129 and L340 are both Hypancistrus debilittera ss, so whatever happens your fry aren't hybrids, but we don't have definitive proof of this because we don't have a holotype for L340.

Have a look here: "Hypancistrus debilittera vs L340"
<http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... es#p231820>, where "Yann" wrote

I had a talk about it with Jon Armbruster when the description of debilittera came out and his opinion on L340...he was pretty clear with it being the same species...

cheers Darrel

[wet-handed]

so there fry should be l129ss?

[dw1305]

Hi all,

so there fry should be l129ss?

Not exactly, they would be

Hypancistrus debilittera

, which would contain both the fish described as L129 and L340 by DATZ.

I should have explained "ss" sensu stricto better, it means a taxonomic entity in the narrow sense, the alternative is "sl" sensu lato which we use to describe a "species", genus or family that may actually contain a less taxonomically well defined unit.

Because most taxonomy is now based on DNA, these terms have been largely replaced by the terminology of "Cladistics", where these ss. units are described as monophyletic, and sl. ones as para or polyphyletic.

Wikipedia gives quite a good review of Cladistics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladistic>, for those who are interested.

cheers Darrel

[krazyGeoff]

Possibly worth pointing out that once scientifically described the L number becomes meaningless?

The L numbers are more a reference placeholder until there has been a scientific description, which is why after scientific description a described species can be made up of more than one L number.
barryancistrus xanthellus being the latest example (L018, L085, L177)

So what Darrel is saying is that once the L340 is scientifically described (which may never happen) is that, it seems likely that the h.debilittera description would possibly include L340 and L129

However since that has not happened yet, the crossing of L129 and L340 would still be regarded as a hybrid.

In laymans terms.

I think

Cheers

Geoff

[Silurus]

Because most taxonomy is now based on DNA

No it's not.

[Suckermouth]

To get to the point, it's impossible to know if your fry will be hybrids without seeing the female and determining if it's the same or different as the male. Chances are in your favor though since you got the male and female at the same time, which increases the likelihood they were captured around the same area at the same time, and thus are likely the same species.

[wet-handed]

I will work on pics of female. She is very shy an in a 75g. I would like to know what i have here. I will try to capture an get a top, side, an bottom picture. This may take a day or two, please bear w/me though iam sure she is debillitera

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Because most taxonomy is now based on DNA.......No it's not.

Point taken and posted by a proper taxonomist. I'm not in an informed position to pass comment on the various competing systems of biological classification, and I accept that present nomenclature follows the Linnaean classification, rather than cladistic systematics. I also have no particular allegiance to cladists, cladistic or cladism, lest I be thought to belong to its more fervent adherents (and some are very fervent in-deed).

I probably should have said something along the lines "that not all scientists agree about the exact meaning of "a species" or "taxon", and traditionally, researchers relied largely on morphology and reproductive behaviour to distinguish species. These are still important tools for the scientist, but scientific advances, including DNA analysis, have provided additional knowledge about the relationships between organisms."

Hopefully that is more acceptable.

cheers Darrel

[wet-handed]

This is the female in a cave and one of the fry. Sorry for the low quality photography. There are 9+/- fry in the tank w/ lots of BN fry as well they have competed for food well.