Need help saving abused emaciated 15 yr old iridescent shark catfish!!! HELP!

[Viktor Jarikov]

Hi Fairy, thanks for your PM. Sorry about not being here a while. There is a lot done and written here already.

I'd think the main thing is to set up the fish's tank and using the aged biomedia sounds like a good idea. I hope by now you understand what a nitrogen cycle is. It can be understood quite simply. The clean water the guys are referring above is not about clarity/turbidity but about a lack of nitrogen-cycle toxins in the water, which are

-- ammonia,
-- nitrite (note the second "i"), and
-- nitrate (note the "a").

You will need to buy a test kit - many use this one http://www.petsolutions.com/C/Aquarium- ... r-Kit.aspx - and measure these parameters, which is also easy. I'd use a vial with the water you add to your fish tank as a reference.

The fish's ID looks right, granted this is a very unusual case but I think for now it is safe to consider it to be an IDS = iridescent shark catfish. They are very adaptable to a wide range of temps, pH, hardness, etc. and are very unfussy feeders.

It is definitely sickly or at least strongly affected by some physical condition. It's indeed way too skinny and the eyes rightfully concern you the most. It could be severely stunted, which leads to eye / head enlargement w.r.t. the body.

My impression is they can live much longer than 15 years but don't quote me - the reported numbers appear to range from 8 years to decades.

Also, you have to prepare yourself to any outcome and realize there is a limit to what you or anyone can do to save a fish. I've read of at least several cases where a large, aged fish was transferred from a horrible tank and water into a proper tank and good water and they still suddenly died a few months later, despite looking good, healthy, eating well, and having adapted seemingly fine. Fish are tough but long-time abuse, I think, may make their bodies adapt strongly to the abuse to survive but there is no strength left or it is impossible (e.g. due to age, etc.) for a fish to adapt back to good water and conditions.

I'd heed everything Racoll and Birger said above too. Stability and pristine water - ammonia zero ppm, nitrite zero ppm, nitrate under 20 ppm, better under 10 ppm, good aeration - that's your absolute goal, I think. That alone has been shown to heal fish just fine, even those in the worst conditions. The fish does not need to eat much or often. They can go for weeks and even months without food or much food and be ok. If a fish has no appetite = it is stressed by newness, water change, transfer, new unfamiliar tank, toxins in the water, disease, water parameters instability, large swings, medicine, bullying, etc. Offering it food in this circumstance will bring more harm. It can be tried with very little and if no interest - remove the food and give it time.

They like current but it is sickly, so not too much current. They like shade, are stressed by much light. Stirring of the water is crucial to keep it well oxygenated. Make sure the water entering your bio-filter is well aerated.

6" fish would be fine in a 55 gal tank but I'd go with larger. This fish at its current state offers a minimal bio-load = very little waste products - ammonia - is produced, so your tank should cycle very quickly. Fish produce vast(?) majority of ammonia by respiration, through gills, not as popularly believed via feces and urine. Uneaten food rots and produces ammonia too so this must be avoided.

[Viktor Jarikov]

PS I see now that I had missed pages 2 and 3 and have written my reply on the basis of page 1 only but it seems more or less relevant still, so I'll leave it be. Sorry about some duplication.

[mostlyfairy]

So nice to hear from you Victor-thank you for taking the time to read this thread and share your experience which is HIGHLY valuable since you care for this variety of fish and know others who do as well!

Much has happened. I have connected with a HIGHLY knowledgeable aquarium business owner (some say his business is by far the best aquarium business in our entire large state). He has reviewed my email, this thread and we have met. There is no doubt in his opinion that this is a shark catfish (pangasius catfish). He even states it is a captive bred one. What he questions is if Nacho can truly be 15 years old. He states the fin development and markings/coloration suggest an age of about 5 years old, not 15. I recited the details of Nacho's story to him. Unless somewhere along the way a fish died without the woman knowing and someone replaced it with another, the story suggests he is 15 years old (even by her sons age-son is 20, people have met him, fish was bought for son when he was small). So this consultant says that years of severe abuse could possibly have prevented adult fin and marking development but the odds of that are small, as are the odds of this fish not dying of organ failure AND surviving four days in a bucket at 15 years of age. So there are many logical reasons that argue perhaps Nacho is not 15 years old and is only about 5 years old. The consultant says that as Nacho begins to grow his body will change and we should understand more-he is confident in his skill to re-assess Nacho's age by his appearance later on as he gains weight and is better nourished.

What you have shared about unexpected death a few months in with these rescued abused shark catfish if of great value to me-thank you. I appreciate being prepared for that. All I can do is my best and I am definitely doing it. As is usually the case when I take in an abused animal, this is about righting a wrong and doing the correct thing to the best of my ability. If nature forces a bad outcome I will just have to accept her decision.

I am very far down the road of understanding water chemistry (although I am leaving the issue of water hardness alone for now). I have the API ammonia, nitrite and nitrate testing kits and appreciate the specific parameters you are suggesting for guidelines-thank you for being specific. Both me and the local expert I have consulted agree that the cycle must eventually happen but it offers no major benefit beyond convenience. Good water changes to achieve zero nitrite/ammonia levels (as you are stressing) is the paramount focus right now. I am someone in the position to test frequently and water change frequently as needed, so the cycle is not a big priority right now-that is what I have decided and the local consultant supports this.

He also advised me to purchase an ABS black sewer pipe at a local hardware store for Nacho to hide in. I did that-Nacho likes it- He hides mostly on top of it but sometimes in it as well. I take that pipe out during feeding time so Nacho can easily find his food and I can easily clean it up. The plan is to continue this hospital tank type setup for 3-4 months to keep the water very clean, allow easy food finding and promote weight gain. I have chosen 80 degrees for the tank temp because of stability-this is the temperature our tap water comes out in the summer so there is no fluctuation with water changes. Later on when less water changes are taking place I can slowly work the temp down to something more typical for his breed. I also shade half the container with a lid. My long term plan, if he survives, may be to buy him a 125 gallon farm watering container and make him an indoor pond instead of an aquarium. I would love to see him swim but apparently that would not be best for his needs (too skittish, likes shade/dark). Also, if we do assess that he is truly only 5 years old, then he needs to go live with someone who has a pond on their property where they keep fish like him or an 800+ gallon tank. Its cruel to keep these fish in smaller tanks if they have their whole lives ahead of them.

The consultant agrees with my initial instincts/concerns about infectious disease issues regarding using mature filter media from the red eared slider's filter. He did not think the benefits outweighed the risks at all. He would not have made the decision to do this and advised against it. I will no longer be taking anything from Rain's tank and putting it into immunocompromised Nahco's tank. Now that I understand more (I have days to read and learn about aquariums) its hard for me to understand why establishing the nitrogen cycle is being emphasized so much IN A RESCUE SITUATION. This is different from buying new healthy fish and I am someone who is highly capable of providing the water care needed to keep the water where I want it without the nitrogen cycle, for now.

What you shared about the ammonia mostly coming from the gills is cool-didn't know that, thanks. He is requiring 25% daily water changes now but I am decreasing that daily and hoping ammonia levels will still hold at zero. Trapped food in the filter was a BIG problem that messed me up for awhile. We have a sponge over the intake valve now.

I'm very interested to read that you share the same opinion as others here, that withholding food during this time frame has more benefits than drawbacks. This is not the opinion of the experienced consultant I spoke with yesterday. He cited that the metabolism of this species of catfish is highly unlikely to develop starvation refeeding problems (because I discussed my fear of going too fast with refeeding and said I wanted to use a very gradual slow plan to slowly increase his food intake because of his long state of starvation). This person said that the pangasius catfish's baseline metabolism (even an old abused emaciated one) should not develop this problem-he is aware of this caution with other species but not with this species. He felt the emaciated poorly nourished state of this fish was of great danger to his survival and that Nacho's own instincts should turn off his eating when eating was not good for his body. He recommended to offer food twice a day and I have been doing that.

So far Nacho only eats a little but I have taught him to eat good catfish pellets now (maybe 6-15 per feeding, they are the size of a pin head) and he is also learning to eat teeny tiny bits of Piscine energetics Pemysis freshwater mysis shrimp and Repashy superfoods Omnivor gel community plus food (I actually walked out of this person's store spending very little, I was discouraged from buying most of what I asked about and told I did not need it-this is a very honest and very experienced person I found). He said that Nacho will likely not eat the nightcrawlers as they are very big for him and they are not his natural habitat food. He did say that the frozen blood worms I have from Omega one are something I can also try.

In medicine, we make decision by the "evidence based" approach. We look at massive amounts of outcomes data. That's how I can make a decision using information that will best help me predict what will happen. Are there any large fish rescues in the US (or an English speaking country) I could consult who would have several case experiences in rescuing abused pangasius catfishes? Because I am getting conflicting opinions. It makes me concerned. I trust the expertise level of this store owner- he has a very high level of knowledge and experience-but that doesn't mean all advice given will be perfect. The feeding issue (how much to feed, should I go a bit slower) may be worth investigating more if there are any truly qualified sources for me to consult who have data. Please advise if you can think of any fish rescue centers/organizations I could call to inquire further about this who may have experience with several shark catfish cases.

Thank you so much for your time and help Victor. I knew you would come say hi soon and probably were just very busy working ;)

[mostlyfairy]

Nacho still going strong two weeks after being found almost dead in a bucket:



His vision has returned & eyes have healed back up with aggressive water changes-they are VERY sensitive to any ammonia


Lots of bubbles in his tank- he LOVES them, sits over the airstone and frolics. From talking to this wretched woman who used to have him and the landlady who was in her home once, it sounds like Nacho lived in a glass 20 gallon aquarium with rocks on the bottom and water that some "ammonia" drops were added to (whatever that means)-that's it...likely no filtration, no air bubble system etc. Maybe the horrific conditions do explain the immature body and stunted growth. Its just hard to know. He is enjoying his present home for sure.


This is his current container set up-only temporary for rehabilitation/recovery. The pipe takes up the bottom but there is a thick deep layer of water above the pipe that he uses for swimming. I also shade half the container with the lid.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Looks good! And seems like you are gaining knowledge superbly and doing right things. It is not that there is one rigid way to rescue a fish. What people tell you here and what the expert tells you there they are all reasonable things, they are not by any means mutually exclusive. Surely, face-to-face interaction is 100x more effective than a forum. I am happy you found someone like that expert.


MF: ... There is no doubt in his opinion that this is a shark catfish (pangasius catfish).
VJ: No doubt here either. To be more specific though, Pangasius is a genus, not a species, with many member-species: http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/gen ... _id=78#843 Plus IDS does not belong to this genus anymore, like it used to but belongs to a newer genus but the old names are hard to change.

MF: He even states it is a captive bred one.
VJ: Yes, chances are 10,000 to 1 that it is an IDS and a farm raised one.

MF: ...I am very far down the road of understanding water chemistry (although I am leaving the issue of water hardness alone for now). I have the API ammonia, nitrite and nitrate testing kits and appreciate the specific parameters you are suggesting for guidelines-thank you for being specific. Both me and the local expert I have consulted agree that the cycle must eventually happen but it offers no major benefit beyond convenience. Good water changes to achieve zero nitrite/ammonia levels (as you are stressing) is the paramount focus right now. I am someone in the position to test frequently and water change frequently as needed, so the cycle is not a big priority right now-that is what I have decided and the local consultant supports this.
VJ: Sounds sensible. Theoretically / pedantically speaking though, I doubt water changes can be of equal value to a properly running bio-filter. In between the water changes, the toxins accumulate and the wc itself is a well known and understood stress factor. So I always thought of wc's as sub par to a filter, unless a continuous wc is set up.

MF: ...The plan is to continue this hospital tank type setup for 3-4 months to keep the water very clean, allow easy food finding and promote weight gain.
VJ: Sounds fine again although I don't see a reason for not setting up a filter, even a simple hang-on-the-back, e.g. a Bio-wheel, or Aquaclear. Not pushing! Just discussing.

MF: ...My long term plan, if he survives, may be to buy him a 125 gallon farm watering container and make him an indoor pond instead of an aquarium.
VJ: Remember he'd appreciate the largest footprint over depth. In this vein for instance, a 300 gal Rubbermaid stock pond is great, 150 gal is not so great.

MF: ...I would love to see him swim but apparently that would not be best for his needs (too skittish, likes shade/dark).
VJ: I think you should be able to enjoy the fruit of your labor of love... on paper at least. In a tank large enough, he won't be skittish. If he is skittish, that means he is stressed. My ~2' guys do dart sometimes in their 13'x13'x4.5' but they are not at all what I'd call skittish. They were very skittish in their small prior homes of ~100-200 gal range even when they were ~1'. No silly behavior and sudden movements, stomping, banging outside the tank helps too. As does dim light. Make sure they have always have access to air. These fish must be able to break surface and gulp air once in a while.

MF: ...Also, if we do assess that he is truly only 5 years old, then he needs to go live with someone who has a pond on their property where they keep fish like him or an 800+ gallon tank. Its cruel to keep these fish in smaller tanks if they have their whole lives ahead of them.
VJ: Some of them don't grow large, it appears, no matter what. Could be that we get the culls from the farms, poorly growing fish, poor genes. It's been long noted that some IDS in the trade grow large and fast whilst others don't. I am not aware of a believable explanation yet.

more on this http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... es.505668/
my post #9 has a list of good links http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... st-6998307

MF: ...The consultant agrees with my initial instincts/concerns about infectious disease issues regarding using mature filter media from the red eared slider's filter. He did not think the benefits outweighed the risks at all. He would not have made the decision to do this and advised against it. I will no longer be taking anything from Rain's tank and putting it into immunocompromised Nahco's tank.
VJ: That's fine. It's a judgment call that's 100x easier to make face to face, as mentioned.

MF: ...Now that I understand more (I have days to read and learn about aquariums) its hard for me to understand why establishing the nitrogen cycle is being emphasized so much IN A RESCUE SITUATION. This is different from buying new healthy fish and I am someone who is highly capable of providing the water care needed to keep the water where I want it without the nitrogen cycle, for now.
VJ: See above.

MF: What you shared about the ammonia mostly coming from the gills is cool-didn't know that, thanks. He is requiring 25% daily water changes now but I am decreasing that daily and hoping ammonia levels will still hold at zero...
VJ: By the API liquid test! Against a vial with your fresh water, not necessarily against the color chart. I've no experience with those indicators you use. I don't trust them. Even the liquid test is approximate and it is the best we have to use at home (short of sending a sample to an analytical lab for $$$). The sticks and indicators are far cruder and usually (?) used for a yes/no test, not a quantitative test. I could be wrong but such is my experience and current convictions.

MF: ...I'm very interested to read that you share the same opinion as others here, that withholding food during this time frame has more benefits than drawbacks. This is not the opinion of the experienced consultant I spoke with yesterday. He cited that the metabolism of this species of catfish is highly unlikely to develop starvation refeeding problems (because I discussed my fear of going too fast with refeeding and said I wanted to use a very gradual slow plan to slowly increase his food intake because of his long state of starvation). This person said that the pangasius catfish's baseline metabolism (even an old abused emaciated one) should not develop this problem-he is aware of this caution with other species but not with this species. He felt the emaciated poorly nourished state of this fish was of great danger to his survival and that Nacho's own instincts should turn off his eating when eating was not good for his body. He recommended to offer food twice a day and I have been doing that.
VJ: This is a case in point. It is impossible to type up what one can say. The withholding of food was advised here because you didn't have an adequate filter and you didn't have the experience (the case of food stuck in the filter and spoiling water is one of the things we feared and it could have easily killed Nacho). We didn't mean (I think) that if Nacho showed good appetite, he should not have been fed but in your (former) situation, feeding less would be better than feeding more. When one has only time to give a short advice and moreover it is an emergency situation: "don't feed" may be adequate. After a week, this could be reconsidered.

MF: ...So far Nacho only eats a little but I have taught him to eat good catfish pellets now (maybe 6-15 per feeding, they are the size of a pin head) and he is also learning to eat teeny tiny bits of Piscine energetics Pemysis freshwater mysis shrimp and Repashy superfoods Omnivor gel community plus food
VJ: Wonderful. I've been working a small miracle for sure in my book.

MF: ...(I actually walked out of this person's store spending very little, I was discouraged from buying most of what I asked about and told I did not need it-this is a very honest and very experienced person I found). He said that Nacho will likely not eat the nightcrawlers as they are very big for him and they are not his natural habitat food. He did say that the frozen blood worms I have from Omega one are something I can also try.
VJ: Great. You lucked out.

MF: ... Are there any large fish rescues in the US (or an English speaking country) I could consult who would have several case experiences in rescuing abused pangasius catfishes?
VJ: I am not a large rescue but you are consulting one as we speak http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=33968 ... but, Racoll is a Doctor of Ichthyology and Birger is an extremely experienced hobbyists who also gives invited lectures on various ichthyo-subjects. Their credentials far supersede mine. There are other world-class hobbyists and aficionados, fish store owners, and even world-renowned ichthyologists regularly active on here.

MF: ...Because I am getting conflicting opinions. It makes me concerned. I trust the expertise level of this store owner- he has a very high level of knowledge and experience-but that doesn't mean all advice given will be perfect. The feeding issue (how much to feed, should I go a bit slower) may be worth investigating more if there are any truly qualified sources for me to consult who have data. Please advise if you can think of any fish rescue centers/organizations I could call to inquire further about this who may have experience with several shark catfish cases.
VJ: Conflicting is normal. When understood, these statements are largely or even entirely reconcilable. Your expert guy sounds great. I'd stick with him for reasons mentioned above.

[mostlyfairy]

Victor thank you for all the awesome info- I will go through it carefully, read the links etc. I so appreciate the info and your experience with this breed of fish. Yes, I remember reading early on they changed the classification of the genus/species confusing everything for me! I think Ben (store owner) believes he is an IDS as everyone here does though, even though he was initially using the old term "pangasius catfish" with me.

To clarify, I do have a fluval 206 filter with lots of biomax running in his tank and have since about 3 days after I acquired him. Its just that ammonia issues have continued to force massive water changes with that filter in place. Part of the problem initially was trapped food in the filter, but I solved that problem several days ago and the ammonia levels are still dictating needed water changes. I don't know why. I am keeping everything very clean. When I feed him I net all the food out meticulously within minutes after being offered. I am testing the ammonia levels with API liquid testing kit and they have ranged from 0.25 to 1.0 at the worst (the highest was during the food trapping). Its my understanding that the API liquid test measures harmful ammonia PLUS harmless ammonium ion in the water, so the levels can be confusing. Nacho has an ion exchange carbon media in the fluval (I think its kind of like zeocarb or the fluval ammonia control media-its what petsmart had on their shelf-marineland premium carbon-ammonia neutralizing blend). Its my understanding that this blend will use hydrogen ions to convert harmful ammonia to ammonium but then also bind it into the media itself and as long as you change out the media in a timely manner of 2-3 weeks, it won't leach back into the water.

The seachem meter in his tank is specifically designed to measure only harmful ammonia without harmless ammonium ions. That is why I can look at the seachem meter reading .05ppm while the API liquid test may read 0.25-0.5ppm (the API test will always give a higher result because it includes the harmless ammonium ions-it is a limitation of that test unfortunately; you never know what percentage of your API test result reading is from ammonium ions versus harmful ammonia).

In reality I don't even know how reliable any of these tests are, but I have the best meter of all-Nacho. He showed me how sick he got from just two days of fairly low level ammonia. At first I misunderstood that you had to allow some ammonia to be present to let the nitrogen cycle happen (and some literature even suggested this). In any case, he showed me he couldn't tolerate that. So now I shoot for keeping all ammonia tests as close to zero as I can with reasonable but still big water changes and I pay attention to his behavior, which is well since I went back to big water changes-he could not tolerate 10% a day. The fluval 206 has been running throughout all of this, WITH mature media from the turtle's filter seeded into it in an attempt to jump start the nitrogen cycle (which did not work).

Maybe he is releasing an unusually large amount of ammonia right now as part of his recovery from the insult of almost dying? I don't know how to explain it, all I know is there is no food in the filter or the tank, the 206 runs with clean good quality carbon and media in it and he still requires at least 25% water changes most days.

PS- I figured out that racoll studies fish because of where he lives ;)

[bekateen]

The fluval 206 has been running throughout all of this, WITH mature media from the turtle's filter seeded into it in an attempt to jump start the nitrogen cycle (which did not work).

Without intending to sound picky, I don't think you can conclude that the mature media isn't working to jump start your nitrogen cycle in the tank. The normal (not jump started) process takes weeks, past a month, to mature. The jump starting effort will shorten this time, but won't make it instantaneous.

That said, even the jump start may not have been (read was not) sufficient to protect your fish, so as you're seeing, you do what you have to do, and in your case this meant more water changes.

Keep up the good work, Eric

[mostlyfairy]

Good point, thanks! ;) Appreciate it. I test for nitrite often now and make the rookie conclusion that no nitrogen cycle is present because no nitrite is yet present, but I often make myself go back to the graph as a reminder of how long it actually takes. This is a very true and good point. I have left the turtle media put despite the recent caution I was given about infectious disease issues, simply because exposure has already happened and leaving it put could still possibly reap some benefit. I have just decided not to add anything more from the turtle's tank because of the possible infection risks we discussed (I was considering a sponge filter for awhile around the time of my move but that was shot down-I was informed the surface area for good bacteria inside my 206 w/ biomax FAR exceeds what any sponge filter will offer, and also that the ID risks make it a very poor option).

Maybe Nacho's body was literally pickled in ammonia and he is just "de-pickling" or something, for lack of a better term.

[Birger]

MF: ... There is no doubt in his opinion that this is a shark catfish (pangasius catfish).
VJ: No doubt here either. To be more specific though, Pangasius is a genus, not a species, with many member-species: http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/gen ... _id=78#843 Plus IDS does not belong to this genus anymore, like it used to but belongs to a newer genus but the old names are hard to change.

To be more precise...Family

Pangasiidae

Genus and species name ...

Pangasianodon hypophthalmus

Birger

[mostlyfairy]

Hi Birger. Why did they reclassify it? Was it gene sequencing data?

[Birger]

Why did they reclassify it? Was it gene sequencing data?

I am not as schooled on Asian Cats as I would like but my understanding is it was done using morphological analysis.

Birger

[mostlyfairy]

Remember he'd appreciate the largest footprint over depth. In this vein for instance, a 300 gal Rubbermaid stock pond is great, 150 gal is not so great.

So does this means that a large expanse or "surface area" for swimming is preferable over using up your water volume on depth? I think I am understanding you...thank you, this is good for me to understand now as I plan. He needs a broad expanse to swim more than he needs deep water, if I'm getting this right.

Some of them don't grow large, it appears, no matter what. Could be that we get the culls from the farms, poorly growing fish, poor genes. It's been long noted that some IDS in the trade grow large and fast whilst others don't. I am not aware of a believable explanation yet.
more on this http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... es.505668/
my post #9 has a list of good links http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... st-6998307

I read through all of these threads this morning, VERY INTERESTING. So many conflicting reports, you are right-theories of tank size/poor water/poor nutrition primarily causing stunting....theories of many different mini breeds floating around....theories that older stunted IDS's not being able to grow much but reports of many starting to grow again when put in very large ponds/tanks. Thank you, it was interesting. The only bad part was comments from people who intentionally try to stunt them. That made me want to kick someone's butt. I respect nature more than that and wish mankind would grow up a little and do the same.

The withholding of food was advised here because you didn't have an adequate filter and you didn't have the experience (the case of food stuck in the filter and spoiling water is one of the things we feared and it could have easily killed Nacho). We didn't mean (I think) that if Nacho showed good appetite, he should not have been fed but in your (former) situation, feeding less would be better than feeding more. When one has only time to give a short advice and moreover it is an emergency situation: "don't feed" may be adequate. After a week, this could be reconsidered.

This thread is painfully long now, it gets confusing. What happened is initially the first 3-4 days I had no filter and of course withholding food was reasonable and I was also wisely told to get all the stray floating food out of the tank. But then I got the fluval 206 running and its been going ever since (I assume this is adequate filtration, please correct me if you feel its still not). It was being discussed that minimal feedings were an option to keep ammonia excretion waste low while waiting for the nitrogen cycle to kick in-that's how I understood it. Maybe I'm confused, but that is how I took the advice I was being given. I ultimately decided that Nacho's nutrition needs outweighed any water chemistry issues. No one EVER mentioned any fear about food getting stuck in the filter or any warning about that. I figured that out on my own and thank goodness I did.

I did extensively research what the harm is in the bigger water changes and if there are subtle benefits to the nitrogen cycle besides just breaking down nitrogen. I didn't find a whole lot of convincing data, but I'm still learning here obviously. What I found were concerns about big water changes to worry about:
temperature fluctations (have that stable at 80F)
hardness fluctuations (haven't addressed, hardness is probably unchanged)
ph fluctations (stable, water is always at 7.4)
the issue of chlorine, cloramine and exposing the fish to a lot of water conditioner additive (this is a downside that is definitely happening-I am going through the bottle of water conditioner quickly, a lot of that chemical is cycled through Nacho's tank and filter right now with these big water changes).

I'm sure there are subtle chemistry spikes and fluctuations that happen with each 25-40% daily water change now that must cause some stress to Nacho's body. But its the better of two evils-without these water changes his API ammonia test would stay at 0.25ppm from just one day and then the next day it would start to climb up towards 0.5ppm. That is how much ammonia he is excreting right now with his fluval 206 running with ammonia control binding media in it. I really think his little fish body is like an ammonia pickle from being in that bucket, still giving off ammonia slowly! What else could it be?

The fish store expert recommended a water change regimen that was similar in volume to what racoll recommended-just different timing: 30% every 3 days (racoll said 10% daily). But Nacho has proven that's not gonna cut it right now. Nacho needs more. So I said to heck with the nitrogen cycle a long time ago, I just need to change the water to keep the ammonia low and keep Nacho alive. Not limiting his food came along with that decision, since originally it was discussed as an ammonia minimization strategy (the way I understood it).

Victor, Nacho is showing me he is hungry now. He never leaves any catfish pellets or mysis shrimp in the tank with his morning or evening feeding. I am still limiting what I give him-maybe a half teaspoon of food per feeding. MY FEARS about refeeding come from what I know about biology and refeeding metabolic problems in general (the enzymes for digestion are present in much lower amounts in severely emaciated/starved animals, you get into trouble if you refeed too fast) and also from this thread that racoll shared early on: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =8&t=41416 .

Any thoughts you have about how you would choose to approach feeding Nacho right now would be greatly appreciated since you are an IDS rescuer with some experience. It sounded like, from the above quote, you would let him eat if he is hungry. Am I being too cautious limiting him to half a teaspoon of food per meal (six inches long, 1.5 inches wide at head fish)? Current diet:
-catfish pellets
-frozen mysis shrimp which he now eats
-repashy community plus ominover gel (he's not eating yet but I offer every feed)

I am not a large rescue but you are consulting one as we speak http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=33968

I think this is SO COOL! I knew you had rescued IDS fish but didn't understand you had built your own rescue. I am going to read through the whole thread tonight when I have time, but WOW! To go from Rochester to Florida!! Night and day! ( I interviewed at a hospital in Rochester in winter...brrrrr!!!) You and your wife went for your dream, how awesome! That thread was from 2011, so are things working okay? Rescue work is precious work. Reptiles and fish are especially in need of resources. This is such a wonderful thing to do. Maybe someday if Nacho grows into a giant intimidating looking shark, he could come live with you If only we weren't a nation apart!

[Viktor Jarikov]

MF: ...To clarify, I do have a fluval 206 filter with lots of biomax running in his tank and have since about 3 days after I acquired him.
VJ: Ok. It was not clear but now is.

MF: Its just that ammonia issues have continued to force massive water changes with that filter in place.
VJ: Not unexpected (see below).

MF: Part of the problem initially was trapped food in the filter, but I solved that problem several days ago and the ammonia levels are still dictating needed water changes. I don't know why. I am keeping everything very clean. When I feed him I net all the food out meticulously within minutes after being offered.
VJ: Usual cycling takes 4-8 weeks, usually ~6. With seeding the time may be cut by 2-3x. Hence, what you are reporting is not unexpected.

MF: I am testing the ammonia levels with API liquid testing kit and they have ranged from 0.25 to 1.0 at the worst (the highest was during the food trapping).
VJ: The number you need to strive for is 0 ppm, not 0.25 ppm. If the ammonia is not zero ppm and until it is 0 ppm by the API liquid test, I'd not feed it, even if he takes it. I'd be helping him with one hand and killing him with the other. That elaborates on the issues above with feed versus not to feed. Ben may think differently and that's ok. Both stands are suppositions, this is not a math problem, no one, clear cut answer. Just personal tendencies of what may be the least harmful / best available path forward.

What one may also consider is adding e.g. Ammo-lock http://www.petsolutions.com/C/Pond-Gene ... -Lock.aspx to the tank water. That helps tremendously and then I'd feed.

MF: Its my understanding that the API liquid test measures harmful ammonia PLUS harmless ammonium ion in the water, so the levels can be confusing.
VJ: You've spoke about this above several times. At the moment, I'd not delve into this and just remember to treat ammonia plus ammonium as one and the same. For our intents and purposes they are ONE. They are in an equilibrium with each other NH3 + H2O --> <-- NH4+OH- and it only depends on pH and temperature, crudely. They are impossible to distinguish by home kits, indicators, etc. I don't think you seachem indicator is able to show ammonia (and in tenth to hundredth ppm!) and exclude out ammonium. If that was so, we'd not use the said API liquid test. But the fact remains, the liquid Nessler-reagent-based ammonia test is what is used almost exclusively by hobbyists and professionals and the seachem indicator I have never seen until your case.

MF: Nacho has an ion exchange carbon media in the fluval (I think its kind of like zeocarb or the fluval ammonia control media-its what petsmart had on their shelf-marineland premium carbon-ammonia neutralizing blend). Its my understanding that this blend will use hydrogen ions to convert harmful ammonia to ammonium but then also bind it into the media itself and as long as you change out the media in a timely manner of 2-3 weeks, it won't leach back into the water.
VJ: Sounds good and I'm glad you have such a good grasp of this. I personally use ammo-lock. With ammo-lock, the test would still read ammonia but it would be in a non-toxic, bound state. I'm far from sure it is simply an ammonium. With zeolite ammonia absorbers, my understanding is that the test should indeed read zero ammonia as it is permanently removed from water. If you read ammonia then the zeolite may be expended. If you never measured 0 ppm even after you loaded the zeolite / ion-exchange media fresh, then it is not enough or, as you said, it works by converting the ammonia and letting it stay in water, not removing it.

MF: The seachem meter in his tank is specifically designed to measure only harmful ammonia without harmless ammonium ions. That is why I can look at the seachem meter reading .05ppm while the API liquid test may read 0.25-0.5ppm (the API test will always give a higher result because it includes the harmless ammonium ions-it is a limitation of that test unfortunately;
VJ: See above.

MF: ... you never know what percentage of your API test result reading is from ammonium ions versus harmful ammonia).
VJ: It can be easily figured out using a simple equation derived from kinetics of this chemical equilibrium reaction knowing pH and temperature dependence of the equilibrium constant, but the point is there is no need to. You are thinking clearly and quite analytically, which is great, you'll be a high level hobbyists very soon at this pace but at present, just trust your test shows both in one and in the absence of zeolite, ion-exchange, ammo-lock and Co. the ammonia+ammonium test must be zero ppm at all times by the liquid test in a properly run fish tank.

MF: In reality I don't even know how reliable any of these tests are, but I have the best meter of all-Nacho. He showed me how sick he got from just two days of fairly low level ammonia.
VJ: Yes. Next to learn is short-term damage at high NH3 ppm (~1+ ppm) and long term damage at low ppm (0-0.25 ppm).

MF: At first I misunderstood that you had to allow some ammonia to be present to let the nitrogen cycle happen (and some literature even suggested this).
VJ: Even when a test reads zero, there is ammonia still present. It is never absent in a fish tank but the concentrations are crucial. The tank will cycle even at "zero" ppm NH3 but surely proportionally faster at higher ppm.

MF: ...Maybe he is releasing an unusually large amount of ammonia right now as part of his recovery from the insult of almost dying?
VJ: No.

MF: I don't know how to explain it, all I know is there is no food in the filter or the tank, the 206 runs with clean good quality carbon and media in it and he still requires at least 25% water changes most days.
VJ: It takes time for bacterial colonies to grow. As stated, make sure the water going into the filter is well aerated, not drawn in from a dead spot, preferably from the surface, etc. The more oxygen this water holds, the faster and more bacteria will grow. This is one most overlooked factor in our hobby. People seem to think of only surface area of their bio-filter media and forget that oxygen is equally important.

[mostlyfairy]

Victor, thank you so much for all the time you took to share this valuable information. I deeply appreciate the teaching and advice.

MF: I am testing the ammonia levels with API liquid testing kit and they have ranged from 0.25 to 1.0 at the worst (the highest was during the food trapping).
VJ: The number you need to strive for is 0 ppm, not 0.25 ppm. If the ammonia is not zero ppm and until it is 0 ppm by the API liquid test, I'd not feed it, even if he takes it. I'd be helping him with one hand and killing him with the other. That elaborates on the issues above with feed versus not to feed. Ben may think differently and that's ok. Both stands are suppositions, this is not a math problem, no one, clear cut answer. Just personal tendencies of what may be the least harmful / best available path forward.

Would a third reasonable solution here be to just do an even bigger water change to get the ammonia level to zero, (solution one being food restriction, solution two being ammolock)? My understanding is that water changes approaching 30-50% daily will greatly slow down growth of the wanted nitrogen processing bacteria but they still will eventually grow, no?

MF: In reality I don't even know how reliable any of these tests are, but I have the best meter of all-Nacho. He showed me how sick he got from just two days of fairly low level ammonia.
VJ: Yes. Next to learn is short-term damage at high NH3 ppm (~1+ ppm) and long term damage at low ppm (0-0.25 ppm).

I hear you loud and clear. Thank you for the prudent warning. I just lean towards doing more water changes to achieve a zero level rather than food restriction, but I will keep trying to learn more on this issue. I will also consider the ammolock option you have raised. I'm not feeding him a ton-I'm still limiting what is given to about 1/2 teaspoon of food twice daily, which he consumes almost all of now.

MF: ...Maybe he is releasing an unusually large amount of ammonia right now as part of his recovery from the insult of almost dying?
VJ: No.

Thank you for clearing this up I will stop thinking of Nacho as an ammonia pickle!

VJ: It takes time for bacterial colonies to grow. As stated, make sure the water going into the filter is well aerated, not drawn in from a dead spot, preferably from the surface, etc. The more oxygen this water holds, the faster and more bacteria will grow. This is one most overlooked factor in our hobby. People seem to think of only surface area of their bio-filter media and forget that oxygen is equally important.

Good to know-thank you. I will have to work on this a bit. The fluval instructions specifically tell you NOT to put the intake valve anywhere near a bubble source, claiming it messes up the pump mechanics. I wonder how true that is though. And that still leaves closer to surface as an option. I will work on this issue further, its a great point.

Thank you again for investing your time to help Nacho!

[Birger]

I'm not feeding him a ton-I'm still limiting what is given to about 1/2 teaspoon of food twice daily, which he consumes almost all of now.

Just to clarify because you mentioned you had not kept fish before too much...often fish even when healthy will not stop eating when they are "full", they will eat what is available to them and then some. It is up to the keeper to monitor this, either the fish eventually ends up obese if allowed to eat too much or worse case is ...especially if they gobble up lots of flake food before it soaks up water some fish will eat so much at one time they damage themselves.Also too much food even though eaten will just add to the waste situation.

Birger

[mostlyfairy]

Thank you Birger. When I took the red eared slider in, I was taught that consuming a meal about the size of her head every 2-3 days was a reasonable way to feed her. When I adopted guinea pigs I was taught 1/8-1/4 cup of quality pellets, 1/2 cup fresh vegetables and unlimited timothy hay per day was appropriate to feed.

But no one has really answered me about how much food is the "normal" amount for Nacho to eat, in his stunted size of 6 inches long. I have no clue if 1/2 teaspoon a twice a day is just a morsel to him or a good meal. Its such a guessing game right now. I am limiting things to remain safe. I understand what you are saying about him being able to overeat. I learned quickly the turtle was a little beggar too-she would eat all day long if given the chance!

[Viktor Jarikov]

MF: ...Would a third reasonable solution here be to just do an even bigger water change to get the ammonia level to zero, (solution one being food restriction, solution two being ammolock)?
VJ: I'd lean to say that the stress from wc's would be less than the stress from "more than zero by the test" of ammonia present. Hence, yes, I'd strive to get the ammonia to zero, which is almost impossible with wc's but your filter has not kicked in yet, hence ammolock would be the best option. With ammolock, you won't have to stress him with
-- too-large too-often wc's,
-- with ammonia, and
-- with too little food.

MF: My understanding is that water changes approaching 30-50% daily will greatly slow down growth of the wanted nitrogen processing bacteria but they still will eventually grow, no?
VJ: My fair answer would be IDK. I've not read this, neither experimented like this. Instinct tells me that since BB (beneficial bacteria) live and grow on surfaces and there is exceedingly little of them in the water column, the wc's cannot significantly change the rate of the BB growth.

MF: ... I just lean towards doing more water changes to achieve a zero level rather than food restriction,
VJ: With ammolock, you won't have to choose the least of two evils (granted ammolock is not stress-free and especially long-term / high conc. may also stress fish but much less than NH3 or hunger).

MF: ... I'm not feeding him a ton-I'm still limiting what is given to about 1/2 teaspoon of food twice daily, which he consumes almost all of now.
VJ: Almost as in still not taking the gel? But he takes all the foods that he does take, right? So 1 full teaspoon a day? Heaping or flat? Flat would be an ok amount.

MF: ...The fluval instructions specifically tell you NOT to put the intake valve anywhere near a bubble source, claiming it messes up the pump mechanics. I wonder how true that is though. And that still leaves closer to surface as an option.
VJ: AFAIU, I'd not direct any bubbles into a canister filter. You could poke Darrel (dw1305) for an advice - he is our expert on all things oxygen in water treatment. He heads a UK lab on that.

[Viktor Jarikov]

MF: ...But no one has really answered me about how much food is the "normal" amount for Nacho to eat, in his stunted size of 6 inches long. I have no clue if 1/2 teaspoon a twice a day is just a morsel to him or a good meal.
VJ: You can crudely imagine the size of his stomach, if not consult dissection drawings (in tank you could observe a tummy bulge and stop then), and feed him that amount 1-2x daily. The stomach is very expandable as with most catfish (as opposed to e.g. carp-likes most of which have a remnant of a stomach, the size of their eye, and food is quickly passed into intestine). So there is "room to play". Given how thin he is, I'd give him a fair amount of feed (with ammolock properly applied) - that is all he can eat in ~5 minutes 1-2x daily. The teaspoon amount (not heaping too much) sounds like it.

With IDS, I'd tend to think there is little danger that they would harm themselves from overeating. They appear IME not nearly as voracious and ravenous eaters as great many other catfish.

[Viktor Jarikov]

MF: ...So does this means that a large expanse or "surface area" for swimming is preferable over using up your water volume on depth? I think I am understanding you...thank you, this is good for me to understand now as I plan. He needs a broad expanse to swim more than he needs deep water, if I'm getting this right.
VJ: Exactly. It'd look like 99.9% of their swimming is done horizontally or semi-horizontally as opposed to going up or down.

MF: ...This thread is painfully long now, it gets confusing. What happened is initially the first 3-4 days I had no filter and of course withholding food was reasonable and I was also wisely told to get all the stray floating food out of the tank. But then I got the fluval 206 running and its been going ever since (I assume this is adequate filtration, please correct me if you feel its still not).
VJ: I'd think it is.

MF: It was being discussed that minimal feedings were an option to keep ammonia excretion waste low while waiting for the nitrogen cycle to kick in-that's how I understood it. Maybe I'm confused, but that is how I took the advice I was being given.
VJ: I'd agree.

MF: I ultimately decided that Nacho's nutrition needs outweighed any water chemistry issues. No one EVER mentioned any fear about food getting stuck in the filter or any warning about that. I figured that out on my own and thank goodness I did.
VJ: Right. It is hard to type up most / all the possible scenarios where offering feed may go wrong to a newbie... which you are quickly becoming not

MF: I did extensively research what the harm is in the bigger water changes and if there are subtle benefits to the nitrogen cycle besides just breaking down nitrogen.
VJ: It is far, far more complicated than we talk about it. For instance, different bacterial cultures are responsible for the initial nitrification (= cycling) and mature nitrification, aerobic vs. anaerobic nitrification, when detritus accumulates competition between carbon/organic-breaking down bacteria vs. nitrifying bacteria ensues, and on and on and on. For starters or for simplicity or both, we just know and talk about what works from an unsophisticated user point of view, on need to know basis.

MF: ...I didn't find a whole lot of convincing data, but I'm still learning here obviously. What I found were concerns about big water changes to worry about:
temperature fluctations (have that stable at 80F)
hardness fluctuations (haven't addressed, hardness is probably unchanged)
ph fluctations (stable, water is always at 7.4)
the issue of chlorine, cloramine and exposing the fish to a lot of water conditioner additive (this is a downside that is definitely happening-I am going through the bottle of water conditioner quickly, a lot of that chemical is cycled through Nacho's tank and filter right now with these big water changes).
VJ: That's good albeit this is also a great simplification. One also has to consider the psychological factor - it stresses fish with nowhere to run when a terrifying, violent, dangerous, potentially deadly in fish's eyes activity such as a wc is under way.

MF: I'm sure there are subtle chemistry spikes and fluctuations that happen with each 25-40% daily water change now that must cause some stress to Nacho's body. But its the better of two evils-without these water changes his API ammonia test would stay at 0.25ppm from just one day and then the next day it would start to climb up towards 0.5ppm. That is how much ammonia he is excreting right now with his fluval 206 running with ammonia control binding media in it. I really think his little fish body is like an ammonia pickle from being in that bucket, still giving off ammonia slowly! What else could it be?
VJ: From the amount of food you give him. There is no disconnect. It comes from that food.

MF: The fish store expert recommended a water change regimen that was similar in volume to what racoll recommended-just different timing: 30% every 3 days (racoll said 10% daily). But Nacho has proven that's not gonna cut it right now. Nacho needs more. So I said to heck with the nitrogen cycle a long time ago, I just need to change the water to keep the ammonia low and keep Nacho alive. Not limiting his food came along with that decision, since originally it was discussed as an ammonia minimization strategy (the way I understood it).
VJ: Again, on average the more you feed, the higher the average NH3 level will be, at the same wc regiment. As simple as that. Because the ammonia needs to be not just ambiguously "low", plus minus quarter or tenth ppm but zero ppm by the test. I may be wrong in reading your words but you seemed to have missed that.

MF: Victor, Nacho is showing me he is hungry now. He never leaves any catfish pellets or mysis shrimp in the tank with his morning or evening feeding. I am still limiting what I give him-maybe a half teaspoon of food per feeding.
MF: All sounds ok.

MF: MY FEARS about refeeding come from what I know about biology and refeeding metabolic problems in general (the enzymes for digestion are present in much lower amounts in severely emaciated/starved animals, you get into trouble if you refeed too fast) and also from this thread that racoll shared early on: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =8&t=41416 .
VJ: You know more on this subject than I do. I've never thought of much or experimented with refeeding issues. Sure I exercise caution when I start feeding a fish after a 3-6 month fast but that's that for my experience.

MF: ...I think this is SO COOL! I knew you had rescued IDS fish but didn't understand you had built your own rescue. I am going to read through the whole thread tonight when I have time, but WOW! To go from Rochester to Florida!! Night and day! ( I interviewed at a hospital in Rochester in winter...brrrrr!!!) You and your wife went for your dream, how awesome! That thread was from 2011, so are things working okay?
VJ: We are still tinkering here. 12 tanks are up and the last exhibit - koi pond is under way. BTW, my better half was dragged into it kicking and screaming which she still engages into... at times of a crisis of the genre So much for her dream. Her dream was for me NOT to do it She must love me too much and I take advantage shamelessly.

[mostlyfairy]

Victor, thank you once again for your careful detailed responses. I'm sure they took much time to write. They are full of highly useful information to me. I have been swamped these past few days with business issues & moving issues, hence my delay in responding but this info has helped me, so my sincere thanks. My move has been delayed by a month for maintenance on the place. This is good for Nacho-more time for stability.

First off, YES, Nacho was getting a FLAT teaspoon per day when he was eating twice daily. But about 2-3 days ago I did alter his feeding regimen down to once daily, out of necessity to limit ammonia. I did this without much other option besides trying ammolock, which I am still learning about and may start using soon given your arguments for its utility in my situation. I just need to understand exactly what I'm using before I start tinkering with it (because of issues like how it affects your ability to test the water ammonia levels, how it is only supposed to work short term, etc-much I still need to fully grasp before relying on it).

In the meantime I was looking at persistent ammonia API tests at 0.25 despite 40% daily water changes which left me with no choice but to change the feeding schedule from 1/2 flat teaspoon twice daily down to once daily. Nacho seems to be tolerating this fine and the ammonia levels are nearing zero with a goal of zero. When I first got him around June 4th there was no way to understand how long he had been deprived of food. Now at least I know he has had some nutrition for several days and this goes a long way towards getting him out of the woods (reducing any risk of death from metabolic starvation changes). I feel more comfortable now about limiting food if it becomes absolutely necessary, because he has had these several days of eating fairly well.

MF: ...But no one has really answered me about how much food is the "normal" amount for Nacho to eat, in his stunted size of 6 inches long. I have no clue if 1/2 teaspoon a twice a day is just a morsel to him or a good meal.
VJ: You can crudely imagine the size of his stomach, if not consult dissection drawings (in tank you could observe a tummy bulge and stop then), and feed him that amount 1-2x daily. The stomach is very expandable as with most catfish (as opposed to e.g. carp-likes most of which have a remnant of a stomach, the size of their eye, and food is quickly passed into intestine). So there is "room to play". Given how thin he is, I'd give him a fair amount of feed (with ammolock properly applied) - that is all he can eat in ~5 minutes 1-2x daily. The teaspoon amount (not heaping too much) sounds like it.

THANK YOU for clarifying this. That really helps me and I can find plenty of dissection stuff and even email my vet if I need to.

VJ: It (the nitrogen cycle) is far, far more complicated than we talk about it. For instance, different bacterial cultures are responsible for the initial nitrification (= cycling) and mature nitrification, aerobic vs. anaerobic nitrification, when detritus accumulates competition between carbon/organic-breaking down bacteria vs. nitrifying bacteria ensues, and on and on and on. For starters or for simplicity or both, we just know and talk about what works from an unsophisticated user point of view, on need to know basis.

This is extremely valuable information-thank you. I can now better appreciate why there is such emphasis on establishing it to the point that some would be willing to sacrifice feeding the fish to get there. Some of the waste and some of the natural shedding of Nacho's body is stuff I will never get with the net that stays in the water and is part of the complex biological homeostasis of the water-I better understand this now from what you are saying and from observing the status of his tank.

One also has to consider the psychological factor - it stresses fish with nowhere to run when a terrifying, violent, dangerous, potentially deadly in fish's eyes activity such as a wc is under way.

True. I forget how things must look to Nacho. The splash of the bucket likely terrifies him. Life here is like a Disney movie. When the husky is bored he goes up the sun bathing turtle and does some husky talk at her, she blinks back at him. Meanwhile the Boston Terrier is lying on the bed next to the guinea pig-they are dear friends. Everyone here is very tame and trained to live together domestically. Nacho is brand new and as a fish may never even get tame. He is likely terrified by the big event of water changes which means big cortisol spikes and bad health effects. He doesn't know I'm not a predator or tsunami.

MF: The fish store expert recommended a water change regimen that was similar in volume to what racoll recommended-just different timing: 30% every 3 days (racoll said 10% daily). But Nacho has proven that's not gonna cut it right now. Nacho needs more. So I said to heck with the nitrogen cycle a long time ago, I just need to change the water to keep the ammonia low and keep Nacho alive. Not limiting his food came along with that decision, since originally it was discussed as an ammonia minimization strategy (the way I understood it).
VJ: Again, on average the more you feed, the higher the average NH3 level will be, at the same wc regiment. As simple as that. Because the ammonia needs to be not just ambiguously "low", plus minus quarter or tenth ppm but zero ppm by the test. I may be wrong in reading your words but you seemed to have missed that.

There was a time when I had missed this point and it created a problem but that was very early on. Then racoll clearly stated that ammonia had to kept at zero and I heard him. I have understood this for a long time. The only thing I have questioned was how to get there (big water changes versus food restriction). I will say though that along the way I have gotten GROSSLY conflicting advice now from the store owner, who thinks its ridiculous that I am being advised to worry about an ammonia level of 0.25. He thinks having these high ammonia levels around is good because it gets you to the nitrogen cycle faster.

I called him last weekend to explain that with twice daily feedings I was getting into trouble. I had to go way beyond the 30% water change every 3 days regimen he suggested to keep the ammonia to zero. I explained that even at 40% daily water changes I could not keep the ammonia to zero and asked for recommendations. Initially at his store I thought he understood I was doing these big water changes and supported this approach-that must have been my confusion. He seemed to get offended that I was not following the exact advice he emailed me. He suggested I not worry at all about ammonia and just do what he emailed: 30% every 3 days. He said I should pick one person and take all of their advice.

There are several huge problems with that approach. The biggest being Nacho already showed me he cannot tolerate even a few days of low level ammonia- his eyes become inflamed and his behavior changes to sluggish. A secondary problem is that I never just pick a guru and do everything they say. Maybe people who can't think for themselves like to do that, but I find that approach highly dangerous anywhere in life. I like to understand why people give the advice they do and decide for myself. I have learned quickly though, both on forums and person to person, that sometimes people either go quiet or get a little uncomfortable if you ask too-hard-to-answer questions. There is NO SHAME in saying "I don't know". I so appreciate that you do that. I was taught to do that professionally. It is the best thing to do when we just don't know. It helps everybody figure stuff out faster. Science is humbling and the truth is that the most brilliant people in the world talk all day long about things where they have to say "I don't know." Michio Kaku probably says "I don't know" a couple of dozen times a day!

What I am coming to understand is that caring for a sick fish is much like caring for an ICU patient-it is a scientific educated art form. There are a few solid guidelines that most people follow but then a TON of grey area open for interpretation because the chemistry is complex and can be debated from many angles. Its humbling.

VJ: We are still tinkering here. 12 tanks are up and the last exhibit - koi pond is under way. BTW, my better half was dragged into it kicking and screaming which she still engages into... at times of a crisis of the genre So much for her dream. Her dream was for me NOT to do it She must love me too much and I take advantage shamelessly.

The pictures of the tanks you did look beautiful! Yes, that is surely a sign of deep love, that she would go along with a dream that was far from her ideal! hope things become a huge success-its a beautiful dream!

Current Plan for Nacho:
-Feeding: 1/2 teaspoon total daily of mysis shrimp, catfish pellets, crumbled Omega one veggie rounds (all mixed together)
-Water changes daily to keep API test reading zero (currently around 40-50% daily, hopefully this will decrease as I just decreased feeding schedule 3 days ago)
-Learn about and consider ammolock as a possible option
-Pipe was removed from tank, thought was it may promote food stasis and contribute to increased ammonia.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I only hope to help but my pleasure if I have.

MF: ... ammolock, which I am still learning about and may start using soon given your arguments for its utility in my situation. I just need to understand exactly what I'm using before I start tinkering with it (because of issues like how it affects your ability to test the water ammonia levels, how it is only supposed to work short term, etc-much I still need to fully grasp before relying on it).
VJ: The ammonia test result will not change in that if it shows 0.25 ppm NH3, it means it is there at 0.25 ppm (both NH3 and NH4+ but, as stated, treat it as one and the same) and, hence, you are feeding your nitrifying bacteria but NH3 is locked into a 100x less toxic form. If the test shows zero, it is zero with or without ammolock = the tank's cycled. A few weeks of usage to detoxify a 0.25-0.5 ppm of NH3 should be well within the reasonable safety time (your wording? it is not "supposed to work short term" but you are not supposed to use it long term). Also keep in mind that you will be taking it out with wc's, so need to replete.

VJ: You can crudely imagine the size of his stomach... ... The teaspoon amount (not heaping too much) sounds like it.
MF: THANK YOU for clarifying this. That really helps me and I can find plenty of dissection stuff and even email my vet if I need to.
VJ: In the regiment described, I forgot to mention that at least once a week it appears beneficial to fast an IDS for a full 24 h. Also forgot to mention that the stomach is a product of the biology: catfish often have irregular but larger meals, whilst carp usually feed regularly, often, and in small quantities usually. Hence, the stomach differences.

MF: ... When the husky is bored he goes up the sun bathing turtle and does some husky talk at her, she blinks back at him. Meanwhile the Boston Terrier is lying on the bed next to the guinea pig-they are dear friends...
VJ: Cute Sounds like you really needed a fish and a bird now too... And I liked your talking for the animals.

MF: ...There was a time...The only thing I have questioned was how to get there (big water changes versus food restriction).
VJ: I think so far we are doing both but now if he has been eating for some time and the NH3 persists and he just became sluggish, I'd stop feeding even if for a week, though judging from below I don't want to upset your relationship with the LFS expert.

MF: I will say though that along the way I have gotten GROSSLY conflicting advice now from the store owner, who thinks its ridiculous that I am being advised to worry about an ammonia level of 0.25.
VJ: My knowledge is a swiss cheese like. So cautiously, I'd think that something got lost in translation so to speak or he meant for a short time, like no more than a week, or he cannot afford the time needed to delve into your problem, esp. when you consult other people. LFS owners are very, very busy, stressed, time-pressed people, the ones I've met anyway were. They have to deal with lots of customer ignorance and waywardness. The people skills of some can be surprising as a result.

MF: He thinks having these high ammonia levels around is good because it gets you to the nitrogen cycle faster.
VJ: I'd agree if it was a fish-less cycling. I'd barely agree if Nacho was robust and you were experienced.

MF: ...What I am coming to understand is that caring for a sick fish is much like caring for an ICU patient-
VJ: Moreover, in your analogy, the ICU has to be built from scratch and the needed knowledge acquired simultaneously. You and Nacho have much going against you.

MF: ... There are a few solid guidelines that most people follow but then a TON of grey area open for interpretation because the chemistry is complex and can be debated from many angles. Its humbling.
VJ: Agreed.

MF: Current Plan for Nacho:
-Feeding: 1/2 teaspoon total daily of mysis shrimp, catfish pellets, crumbled Omega one veggie rounds (all mixed together)
VJ: You are not me but if it was me I'd cut it twice again - every other day or 1/2 of that a day/ Just for 1-2 weeks. Your filter should be picking up soon.

MF: Water changes daily to keep API test reading zero (currently around 40-50% daily, hopefully this will decrease as I just decreased feeding schedule 3 days ago)
VJ: You could consider adding the water continuously 24/7, e.g. place in a bath tub and crack open the faucet to a slow trickle and let the tank overrun while having a bit of excess of dechlorinator in the tank. That way you can change 100% or more a day. Just a thought. I've done it for half a year with a 4000 gal badly leaking pond in my basement.

MF: Learn about and consider ammolock as a possible option
VJ: Yes.

MF: Pipe was removed from tank, thought was it may promote food stasis and contribute to increased ammonia.
VJ: It could have been beneficial if Nacho hid in it during wc's but in general, IDS should not hide at all.

[mostlyfairy]

Nacho Update
This is Day 17 that Nacho has had a working running fluval 206 canister filter in his container of water.
It is Day 8 of him having a sack of "Marineland Carbon-Ammonia Neutralizing blend" added to the filter.

Feeding was with-held today as a fast day (per Victor's info about IDS needs), after over a week of feeding on mysis shrimp, catfish pellets and veggie rounds.

Water chemistry tested today
Pre water change am: ammonia 0.25 ppm
Post 25% water change ammonia: almost 0 (slight green tinge to yellow barely detectable, 2nd pm water change coming)
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm (likely from Nacho's excrement-he is making a lot and its hard to net it all up as it crumbles, I try to suction vacuum it with the water changes)
Ph 7.4
temp 80F

VJ: The ammonia test result will not change in that if it shows 0.25 ppm NH3, it means it is there at 0.25 ppm (both NH3 and NH4+ but, as stated, treat it as one and the same) and, hence, you are feeding your nitrifying bacteria but NH3 is locked into a 100x less toxic form. If the test shows zero, it is zero with or without ammolock = the tank's cycled. A few weeks of usage to detoxify a 0.25-0.5 ppm of NH3 should be well within the reasonable safety time (your wording? it is not "supposed to work short term" but you are not supposed to use it long term). Also keep in mind that you will be taking it out with wc's, so need to replete.

Thank you for this clarification of ammolock. I have also been reading. Yes, this may be an option if I cannot control the ammonia with less feeding. Today will be a fast day per the new info you shared.

(As an aside, fasting is associated with life extension in humans-there is much data on this now. It seems to be possibly connected with aging/longevity via programmed cell death from telomere length, complex hormonal effects on metabolism and other cool stuff I don't fully understand. Rich people spend fortunes on this kind of stuff and some go to spas a few times a year where doctors supervise their semi-annual fasts hoping to have a good cumulative effect towards life extension. There are also studies that prove that being on the skinny/lean side is associated with longer life because of metabolic effects. Data seems to indicate that skinny and hungry can be good, not just because of adipose stores/lipid profiles but for other complex reasons).

I changed out the cheap-o marineland ammonia absorbing filter media today in the hopes that maybe its just poor quality stuff and got saturated in a 8 days. Time will tell if my theory is correct. If thats true, better quality ammonia absorbing media may also be a strategy that can help me. I also checked the filter today to be certain there is more trapped food happening now that a sponge is over the intake valve, and thankfully that issue is fully resolved.

VJ: ...if Nacho has been eating for some time and the NH3 persists and he just became sluggish, I'd stop feeding even if for a week, though judging from below I don't want to upset your relationship with the LFS expert... My knowledge is a swiss cheese like. So cautiously, I'd think that something got lost in translation so to speak or he meant for a short time, like no more than a week, or he cannot afford the time needed to delve into your problem, esp. when you consult other people. LFS owners are very, very busy, stressed, time-pressed people, the ones I've met anyway were. They have to deal with lots of customer ignorance and waywardness. The people skills of some can be surprising as a result.

I left things on amicable terms with the shop owner. I explained my other experience and that when I have had conflicting opinions with consultants in the professional world, that means I need to do more research and learning until I understand why a difference of opinion exists. But we talked for enough time that it was clear his belief was to leave these ammonia levels hovering around or above 0.25 ppm AND CLIMBING HIGHER, until the nitrogen cycle establishes itself. This is his approach. I didn't have time to tell him Nacho has already failed this approach via my own errors early on. I have learned that many hobbyists regard fish as "expendable" and make references to being upset about them dying because of the "expense". I get the feel that may be his thinking as well. Clearly the way I think about this is very different. I am trying to save a life.

Fortunately Nacho is not sluggish at all. The water at its worst during the day right now rises to 0.25 ppm ammonia but I correct it to zero with big water changes. He is getting more and more lively everyday, now doing some surface antics that come close to flips-big splashes He has more frequent freak outs where he darts around. I try not to startle him my best. He is becoming more healthy-more curious, more observant, more playful- eyes more healed, more anxious to eat quickly, etc. All behavior signs with Nacho are improving But the week long fasting idea is one I have on the shelf for if I get into trouble- now that he has had food for over a week, if I have to starve him I am okay with that. I was just terrified to do that before in an emaciated abused fish with no clear known history-he could have been near death.

Reading about ammolock helps me understand more about Nacho's previous situation. When I called his dunk/drugged out owner, before I gave her the bad news that I would never give this neglected creature back to her, I pumped her for information. I asked her what he needed to be safe and have a home. She is living 2-3 hours away from me and thought it would take her some time (weeks) before she could drive out to get him. She said all he needed for a home was a container of water and his "ammonia drops" or some old water from his previous container of water (reference to nitrogen cycle bacteria). I now understand that clearly she was speaking of ammolock when mentioning the drops. That's what she meant-its very obvious to me.

So Nacho lived in a 20 gallon aquarium with rocks on the bottom (from the landlady who witnessed this in the house) and likely ammolock added to his water periodically. We doubt he had a running filter but don't know for certain. We doubt he had an aeration system. We don't know how often he had water changes. He had tropical fish flakes as his food-may have been supplemented with something else although from his skinny state that's unlikely. The details that he is 15 years old still hold up. I believe the horrific neglectful conditions could explain his premature development and little body even at 15 (and the little body could also have to do with other issues as the threads you linked to brought up). But he is amazing- it is amazing that a fish of 15 would survive 4 days trapped in about 3 gallons of water in a bucket WITH A SNAP ON LID AND ONLY 4 TINY HOLES POKED IN IT. Nacho is like a fish superhero!

-Feeding: 1/2 teaspoon total daily of mysis shrimp, catfish pellets, crumbled Omega one veggie rounds (all mixed together)
VJ: You are not me but if it was me I'd cut it twice again - every other day or 1/2 of that a day/ Just for 1-2 weeks. Your filter should be picking up soon.

This sounds reasonable to me- I'm leaning towards going with your suggestion on this for the next week or so while I watch what the water does.

VJ: You could consider adding the water continuously 24/7, e.g. place in a bath tub and crack open the faucet to a slow trickle and let the tank overrun while having a bit of excess of dechlorinator in the tank. That way you can change 100% or more a day. Just a thought. I've done it for half a year with a 4000 gal badly leaking pond in my basement.

This sounds like an optimal set up, but I don't have two bathrooms- there is no workable way for me to do this and still bathe!

I know we have many obstacles to overcome, but I remain hopeful. My biggest concern is your experience about these abused IDS rescues hitting the 2-3 month mark and passing away for unknown (highly likely metabolic) complications. All I can do is proceed with caution and try my best. He's definitely happy and well, improving. Thank you again for all the help!

[Viktor Jarikov]

All sounds good.

Yes, I am much surprised Nacho's survived 4 days with miniscule fresh air. Perhaps IDS ability to draw oxygen from air had helped him.

I'd be very surprised if the prior owner used ammolock. Not impossible but unlikely as this is a bit too special. More likely she was adding Seachem Prime or similar rival products that detox chloramines, chlorine, and ammonia too, because almost all use that to treat the tap water. My impression is ammolock is mentioned and used rarely by simple hobbyists.

As for the continuous water change, you can build on the idea, e.g., use a larger tub to put his tub in, or set it up outside with a garden hose (protection from predators, swinging temp, etc. would be a must), etc.

The sudden deaths you refer to in the last paragraph are not confined to IDS. There aren't many reported cases to start with (and all of those I've only read on MFK and Co., not experienced) and, going on memory, they do not appear to be confined to a particular fish or even a fish family.

[jodilynn]

Wow awesome job with the little guy!

I wish you the very best of luck with Nacho. Please just take a deep breath, "learning" how to be a fishkeeper can be very very overwhelming! I still get overwhelmed when I start to overthink things! And I've been doing this for the better part of 30+ years!

Keep the water pristine (I'm still on board with the 10% changes every day), keep food out of the filter (I turn mine off and always make sure to have a prefilter on the intake so stuff gets caught in the sponge and doesn't gook up the filter, it makes a big difference), clean water and warm temps will help him recover. The good food and varied diet will help too.

Relax. You are doing great, keep up the good work. Keep reading and learning, but stop overthinking! You can do this! Look how far little Alfred the Syno came!

[mostlyfairy]

Sorry for the delay- so so busy, not enough hours in the day right now.

Thank you Jodilynn for your kind words of encouragement ♥ Yes, Alfred's story was amazing and gives me and Nacho hope.

Viktor thank you for the clarification on the sudden death phenomenon. That is nice to know-perhaps there is a bit lower risk than I was thinking as first...fingers crossed.

I could certainly be wrong that his abuser was using ammolock but I still have that strong impression. She was not without chemistry education. She is a phlebotomist (yes, there are many functional drug addicts in the health care industry-more than most people realize). I tend to think she would have called water conditioner by its name and ammolock "ammonia drops". Also, ammolock is on our local petsmart store shelf right next to the cheap-o top fin fish flakes she bought him- it is something she had easy access to. I still think she may have been dumping ammolock into his water to avoid buying him a proper filter, but I could be wrong- I guess we'll never know.

Nacho Update:

Day 21 with the Fluval 206 running, seeded with biomax from a mature FX5 turtle tank
ammonia pre 20% water change: between 0 and 0.25 (yellow with just hue of green)
ammonia post 20% water change: 0
nitrite 0
nitrate trace positive (yellow with just slight orange hue)

(all testing being done with API liquid testing kits, results in ppm)

Nacho's feeding:
1/2 teaspoon of frozen mysis shrimp mixed with crumbled Omega One Veggie rounds, every other day

Water change regimen:
On days when Nacho is not fed, his water sometimes needs only one 20% water change for the ammonia to remain at zero. On feeding days the water usually requires two 20% water changes to remain at zero. All water changes get water condition added to them according to amount recommended on label to help protect against chlorine, chloramine and also help with effects of ammonia. Water comes out of tap at 80F, safe temp as Nacho's tank water. Water ph is stable at 7.4.

Every day I PRAY that the stupid nitrite test will turn from light blue to purple, but it does not. I have wondered if there is something defective in the test, but I realize it is far more likely that large water changes have prolonged the establishment of a functional nitrogen cycle from its normal time line-its taking longer.

Keeping Nacho healthy has been the primary focus given his near death and nearly starved state. His behavior continues to be excellent- energetic, playful, curious, anxious to eat quickly now, appropriately reactive to new stimuli, etc. His eyes are healing up nicely from the clean water, which is maintained at zero ammonia level for most of the day with my aggressive water changes and new minimized feeding schedule.

It if hard for me to feel good about feeding the emaciated Nacho only 1/2 teaspoon of food every other day, but given the circumstances it is prudent. (He did have a good week of twice daily feeds to build his nutrition up). However, if I cannot establish a functional nitrogen cycle soon, I may have to resort to the option of ammolock so I can feed him and still keep his water free of toxic of ammonia. I do have concerns about introducing yet another chemical into his environment when he is so sickly, but there are not a ton of options. For now, since the water ammonia is resting at zero for the majority of the day, I am continuing the current regimen in the HOPES that nitrite shows up soon.

[mostlyfairy]

Here are some quick pix (sorry not enough time to get really good ones). On June 4th Nacho was almost dead. Water chemsitry issues and caution about re-feeding syndrome have both limited my rate of feeding him. His body is not as bony as when we first met 25 days ago, and his eyes are far far better looking. But I'm not sure anyone but me will be able to tell the difference. In any case, he is still cute to look at

Nacho the immortal wonder fish, Day 25:

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sounds good.

MF: ...Every day I PRAY that the stupid nitrite test will turn from light blue to purple, but it does not. I have wondered if there is something defective in the test, but I realize it is far more likely that large water changes have prolonged the establishment of a functional nitrogen cycle from its normal time line-its taking longer...

VJ: I'd not blame the wc's. Nitrites may or may not appear at all (may appear but stay below readable by the test). Cycling is a process subject to a sleuth of complex variables. Moreover, IME when a seeded media is used to shorten the cycling time, nitrite may well never appear. So don't be preoccupied with nitrite (and if it does appear it can rather harmlessly be neutralized with table salt). Ammonia is the focus. 3 weeks have gone by. In one week it should become clearer whether the filter's starting to work. I'd try not to change anything at this moment, including how and when you feed and test and clean, etc., so that you have a firm reference point in time. On paper, I expect the "cycledness" should be reached within the next 2 weeks.

[mostlyfairy]

ok great, sounds good. I will keep this current regimen going and hope. fins and fingers crossed! Thanks Victor. Yes, I read a bit about salt and nitrite. I guess I was taking the cycle graph too literally- I was looking at nitrite as a harbinger of good things. But the fact that ammonia does not decrease after excretion (the way it does in Rainforest Jasper the Turtle's tank) is proof enough that a true nitrogen cycle has not begun working nicely yet. I'm glad to read you are not as discouraged as I am. I will keep waiting and not change anything.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Right. We appear stable and right now we need an established, reliable baseline to detect the coming changes.

MF: But the fact that ammonia does not decrease after excretion (the way it does in Rainforest Jasper the Turtle's tank) is proof enough that a true nitrogen cycle has not begun working nicely yet.

VJ: I am afraid I didn't get this.

[mostlyfairy]

Rainforest Jasper the turtle has a working functional nitrogen cycle going in her tank. She excretes ammonia waste but whenever I test her water the ammonia levels are zero ( I am assuming because she has plentiful amounts of the needed bacteria living in her filter that break down the ammonia in her waste). When Nacho excretes waste it does not go away-the ammonia levels just go up and up. I have tried delaying the water changes a few times to test. Whatever goes on in her tank that works well is not yet going on in his tank from my experience so far of testing both their water. I have tested them side by side- her ammonia levels stay at zero- his do not. Does that make better sense?

Sorry, you can get a headache trying to discuss this stuff clearly. I'm trying very hard to be clear though in case someone in the future (someone in my shoes who knows very little about aquariums) reads this thread for help. I appreciate you asking for clarification when it doesn't make sense.