Panaque sp L191 : let's go for a spawning tentative

[ElTofi]

Hi you all,

this time, that's it ! my L191 group comes mature and I noticed very obvious behaviors in the big 10,000 liters tank (2,640 US gallons)... but with that much concurrence on the bottom (2 Acanthicus, 2 Pterygoplichthys, 4 Panaque schaeferi, 5 Astronotus occelatus on 8.6 m2), I don't expect anything... That's why I managed to recycle a 900 liters (245 US gallons) to turn it into a nursery for species...

After a month of N2 cycling, I managed to set up an appropriate hardscape, with 2 big roots and a few terra-cotta huge tubes (already used, back in 2009, for Pseudacanthicus scarlet)...

The first challenge, and believe me, it's not the least : taking the 7 Panaque out of the big tank

I had a first try tonight, right after the lights turned off... the Panaque stand in the flow of the TUNZE Stream, against the front wall... I used a small torch to see what I was doing and a big Pike Net to get 2 of them... I didn't want to make more mess in the big one as the Cichla, Astronotus, Stingrays and Arowanas became seriously nervous swimming around... I'll go on tomorrow...

of course, every light is turned off now... so you'll have to wait till tomorrow for first pictures... but believe me when I say those babies are HUGE !

I'd be glad to receive any advice, suggestions, idea, experience... thanks a lot for following this thread...

[Narwhal72]

Good luck with this endeavor! It is something I want to try too when my L191 are big enough in 5-6 years.

The only other documented spawning of large Panaque like these was from a hobbyist in Southeast Asia who had them in a 90 gallon aquarium.

I am curious to know if they accept the terra cotta cave. The other documented spawning was in a cave made out of wood.

Andy

[ElTofi]

yes, I've read this news in the US edition of AMAZONAS a few months ago... but I was sooooo deceived by the lack of good informations... pictures, yes, but very small informations on how he got the "starter" ! I guess that's part of state of mind...

[ElTofi]

I am curious to know if they accept the terra cotta cave. The other documented spawning was in a cave made out of wood.

this morning, a short moment of panic when I've been unable to find my 2 panaque in the nursery... 2 fish of +30 cm in a 900 liters tank should be immediately seen... I looked behind the tank (it's covered, they shouldn't be able to get out) : nothing...

and then, I took a look inside the tubes... and they were there one fish in each of the tube... I guess that gives an answer to the above question... at least as hiding place... and that means, of course, that I'll only be able to shoot some caudal fins pictures for a while... until I achieve the 1st challenge : I will try to capture a few others later tonight...

[bekateen]

Good luck!

[ElTofi]

I just got a 3rd one...

a few pictures...





any idea on sexing ?


a smaller one (28 cm)


the biggest in the 900 liters tank (I have bigger still in the big tank)

[ElTofi]

and 4... and 5...

and that's it for today...

normally, I should find N°6-7 in the next days, as I changed the TUNZE Flow pumps orientation to get them on the front wall, where I can net them...

the biggest of 5 is impressive, full of grown odontodes (pectoral, body, interopercular) and it's not a surprise it has been stucked into the pike net... I had to cut some piece of the grid... it's not wounded and I was expecting such problems, so I had a cissor with me, ready to use...

more pictures tomorrow evening...

[matthewfaulkner]

Awesome, as usual, Christophe I just think it's so cool you've raised 7 of these guys from babies to the monsters they are now. Anyway, enough brown nosing for now ;)

I know that 900 litres is a huge tank, but I think it'll get small very fast. Aside from the giving them enough refuges, try to ensure that there are no 'dead ends', so that the fish always has an escape route if they get in a fight.

As for sexing, I still don't know if there is a definitive answer. From the Amazonas article featuring the

Panaque cf_armbrusteri`araguaia`

breeding, the only thing I could see in the picture was that the female has reduced pectoral odontode growth compared to male. But we can't tell when those photos were taken in relation to when the breeding occurred.

I suspect that the ventral fins are a better indicator, with mature males having enlarged/swollen fin spines. There is a tenuous precedent; the authors that described

Hypostomus basilisko

noted that males had enlarged/swollen ventral fin spines. Not directly comparable I know.

[ElTofi]

thanks Matthew, appreciated...

I know that 900 litres is a huge tank, but I think it'll get small very fast. Aside from the giving them enough refuges, try to ensure that there are no 'dead ends', so that the fish always has an escape route if they get in a fight.

Agreed... I thought about that too... there are 2 master pieces of wood, but they are free around to let a way "out" for the weaker... And I don't intend to let them all inside it... just the time to sex or to create a pair... I must admit concurrency in such a tiny volume (compared to the size of fish) is a topic in my mind... I will look after that very closely...

I suspect that the ventral fins are a better indicator, with mature males having enlarged/swollen fin spines. There is a tenuous precedent; the authors that described

Hypostomus basilisko

noted that males had enlarged/swollen ventral fin spines. Not directly comparable I know.

good tip, I will check that and try to take close up pictures... now it's quite easy to shoot good pictures...

thanks !

[ElTofi]

a few pictures, taken this morning, right after lights ON...

the "Big One" has settled down inside a tube... (just to say, the tube is 15 cm high/wide and 50 cm long)
No indications of fight... no wounds... no problem... yet...





that's why you don't ever want to take them without gloves : sharp like razors... and powerful

[ElTofi]

The "Big One"




the smaller, in the left cave :


the both caves, with only 1 fish in each (for the moment )

[CharlieM9]

Those are some very nice looking mini tanks (heavily armored panaques!!) there Eltofi!!!!

[ElTofi]

indeed...

[ElTofi]

5th week in dry season mode. 30 celsius, growing organic charge (still under control).

I'm gonna keep on this way till late September and then I plan a massive rainy season.

Only one of them developps big odontodes.

Wait & see

[ElTofi]

hi you all,

the big Panaques are on "dry season" from 3rd of June and still under control...

as said before, I plan to begin a "rainy season" in September...

what would you do for water change routine to simulate such a season ? I thought of 20% each day for a month, with a cooling down of 3-4 degrees (C°) each time...

any opinion ?

[PseudaSmart]

I like people who are not afraid of 'big' challenges!
A few things come to mind;
Did I read correctly that you use a net? It is much safer to use containers with the larger fish even with the weight.

Fish at this size are much more tolerant to change that would harm/kill smaller ones. Having experienced part of the rainy season a 20% WC is way too small. 75% of cool rain water every few days for a week is more in line.

How far has the water level of the tank dropped? You haven't been cheating and cleaning the filter?

Before focusing on one genus I worked with hormone injections for both clown loaches and 20 cm L191's. Did not achieve ultimate success but I did learn a few things (no deaths). If you are interested send me an email as I also have a few questions about your L25s.

Jim
FYI - I never tried injections with any other fish and stopped using them at least 5 years ago with some reasons being more obvious than others.

[ElTofi]

thanks for your answer.

I used a net indeed... but a plastic one, the same I use for my stingrays, they can't be hurt inside this one. No rope, no nots, just smooth surface. And I can cut it freely when needed (I did with the big one). and just for fun, try to place a container into the tank I have (540x160x125 cm) and you'll have a little notion of what Fukushima looks like for my fish (jumps, fights, escapes, and so on... even on a "big one", there are still walls and glass at an end...). My solution is much more safer for everyone... and much more simple too... But I admit this way doesn't fit for Arowanas, Cichlas, Astronotus or Myleus...

I totally agree with the quantity of water change for a "rainy" season... But... (there must be a but...) my point is to make this stimulation on a whole month (and not only a week), so I guess it'll need time to work (especially to refill) a 75% water change... that's an interesting opinion, and I guess I could try up to 50 % each day for a month... after all, I made 100% water change per week with my 10'000 liters for 2.5 years... I'll think about it till September...

The 900 liters panaque nursery/breeding tank is covered and there a very poor evaporation... temperature rises, organic charge too, but water level stays quite equal. I have 2 Eheim Pro III on this tank, and I underfeed, so nope, I didn't cheat with cleaning anything from June 3rd. Of course, water is more yellow than 2 months ago, together with roots and sunken woods... and organic charge too...

I'd be glad to exchange tips & tricks from Panaque to Pseuda lovers... but if you don't mind, I prefer doing it here on the open topic for Panaques, and on the "old L25 topic" (or a new one) for Pseuda Scarlet... PlanetCatfish has brought me support and informations from the very beginning of my "sickness"... I consider it's a normal "return on invest" to share informations here... don't you agree ?

[PseudaSmart]

Starting from the bottom up seems to the easiest.

I agree with you that Planet Catfish is great and has been great to me. When sharing information I follow the 90/10 rule. General discussion, trading ideas, helping save sick fish and such are great for forums. Technical discussions tend to quickly lose people and data is misinterpreted with bad results. Lastly, experts in any field never reveal all their secrets.

The way you have described the tank conditions to me are a modification of a pleco dry season.

The rainy season WC plan seems based more on what you can do / comfortable doing. I get that and have no issue but how many times have we seen video of a mud hole full of fish be under meters of water the next day? It seems unlikely to get a spawn after a week of WCs without another factor.

I always tend to forget the height of your tanks. My breeding tanks are 180/190 gal and I am tall so I can just reach the corners. I have seen rubber nets and they're good. My reluctance is due to a bad netting experience. A pectoral fin got caught and was pulled forward with a crack pop sound. Bad outcome.


Your posts are always great to follow.

[ElTofi]

ok, your argue of "muddy waters submerged by rainy water the day after" hit me right ! And as you wrote, I probably should get out of my confort zone to stimulate my mature panaque... so let's do that... I can go with a week at 70-80% a day and then go smoother with 50% or 30% on following weeks...

I called the "water service" in my village and I got the good information on water parameters of my area (Swiss mountain village, 6'000 habitants, 6 different water collecting areas) and they are fine. I can use directly. My only fear is not about water quality, but water temperature... out of the tap net, it's quite cool (around 6-8 C°). I guess Panaque can stand a lowering of 6-10 C° at each WC... but more ? It doesn't sound too much responsible... maybe I should prepared and temperate the water before refilling. Any opinion about that ?

and I will adopt your 90/10 theory for this topic... but it's my nature to share questions, results, opinions... even on an "expert" level (expert which I'm certainly not, under absolutely realistic analyse of my experiences... I've always been lucky with my breeding success)

[characinkid]

Hi

Don't have much to offer here as I dont keep large L's at the moment, however I had to get outside my "comfort" zone to breed some cory's and do larger water changes with cooler water than I was used to! When I did that, they responded well and spawned
If we think about a river in SA that can double in size due to a rain storm in just a few hours and the changes in temp and chemistry these fish have to be pretty hardy to survive that and we keep them fairly constant in tanks!

So, I guess what I am trying to say is be brave and go for it

[ElTofi]

thanks all for your contributions... feel free to comment, advise, take part, etc...

I'm at home from Sunday, due to a bad viral angina (thanks to my little 3.5 years boy)... and I have plenty of time to think... so, after 2 days being sick & tired, I'm recovering slowly... just enough to decide I could take care of my tanks... so let's begin this rainy season, after 2.5 months of dry season...

So I begun this morning with a 50% WC. Temperature cooled down from 30°C to 24.5... that seems responsible... to ensure the homogeny of cold/tempered waters, I added a TUNZE 8m3/h right under the surface. It forwards the micro-bubles of the venturi right to the other side of the tank...

At this time, I'm unable to do more WC, as the inlet from the 2 Eheim Pro III are not set to the bottom of the tank. Of course, I could directly add some new tap water while I'm getting out the old (at the other side), that would certainly raise the amount of WC... I will probably try that late on this week... and check the efficiency of the WC by temperature control... Then I'll fix a daily WC routine these next days...

any proposal to a maximal temperature falling ? I guess 22-23 °C would be a target... what do you think ?

I'll keep in touch here on this topic...

[ElTofi]

Rainy Season, day 8

I daily change >50% with clean, cold, soft water from a whole week. I've seen a lot of day and night activity... From 2 days, 3 Panaques are looking for new places to settle down... Yesterday, one which supposed to be a female (considering odontodes growth) choosed a cave... and this morning, the biggest one (35 cm, probably a male, considering its enormous pectoral odontodes) chased the "little" and invested the cave...



the "supposed so female", at the entrance of the 2nd cave :



I'll try to get a close up of those genital papilla... for the moment, the only shoots I can make are on bodies and odontodes...

I began to clearly see 2 types of pectoral odontodes implantation :

1. thick, strong, long, but only on the far end of the pectoral fins (male ?)
2. thin, short, dense, and on the whole length of the pectoral fins (female ?)

let's wait a while to get an opinion...

[Narwhal72]

I am following with rapt enthusiasm! Keep up the effort.

[christian]

hey,

first i must say that this is a very nice project and good luck on breeding them!
but arent the caves a little too small, especially for the large male?

[ElTofi]

nope Christian, the caves are ok in size



50x15x15 cm

[ElTofi]

rainy season, day 14 :

50% new water daily is a good way to induct a "rainy season"…

after 2 weeks, 3 of my panaque develop amazing opercular and pectoral new odontodes… and the caves are visited (invested) daily… I'm going on on this track…

crossing fingers...

[CharlieM9]

Sounds like some progress! Keep us posted Eltofi!

[matthewfaulkner]

Sounds promising!

What are you feeding them during this period?

[ElTofi]

sturgeon pellets... rich in protein, crustacean, fibers, and ashes... and of course, 2-3 new soft wood branches (alnus glutinosa, betula spp)

[cannondale]

Awesome initiative. I'm defiantly following