Planiloricaria cryptodon problems

[toby]

I have been watching my planiloricari progressively worsen over the last several days with what seems to be a fungal/bacterial skin?? issue and would like to ask for some advice. First off tank parameters - 6 foot 250 gallon tank, sand substrate, 2 planiloricaria ~ 25cm , 5 geophagus, 2 crenicichla cyclostoma (insectivores so no bullying), 6 headstanders (2 abramites and 4 synaptolaemus cingulatus) and 2 heros ~ 20 cm.
Water parameters - ammonia and nitrites 0, nitrates 5-10, 40% waterchanges every 5 days is the protocol for this tank. pH 7.8, hardness 350 ppm and temp 80. The tank has been up and running for several years, the planiloricaria I have had for ~ 2 years with no issues, with these same fish. The other planiloricaria has no issues.
I noticed that 1 of the synaptolaemus keeps seemingly picking at the affected catfish, I don't know if that is the cause or it is doing it because of the issue. They don't bother the other cryptodon.
The planiloricaria seems distressed now - just in the last 24-36 hours he doesn't seem to be burying himself in the sand and is very restless - moving around a lot, which is unusual.
Should I consider trying meth blue and swabbing the affected areas?? or do a bath in meth blue? how long should I do the bath? Should I go straight to an antibiotic - I have some kanamycin here that I think would be effective. I hate to have to net this guy as their bodies aren't real flexible and it takes a very large net and care not to damage them. Should I put it in a hospital tank or return it to the main tank after bath? swab? Obviously if it is recommended to treat antibiotics, I'll have to put him in the hospital tank for a week or so - kanamycin requires treatments every 2 days for 6 days.
Thanks for any suggestions you may have.

[Narwhal72]

I have had a lot of issues with fish picking on my Planiloricaria from time to time. May be best to separate it and treat with an antibiotic to prevent further infection.

[naturalart]

Seems there are more and more incidents like this. I had similar problems with mine also, almost a decade ago; attacked and chewed on by other loricarids. Water condition sensitivities. 2 years is a good run, but I'm starting to think this not a fish for the average aquarium or fishkeeper, or is it just my imagination? Have you checked your DO? In my experience this fish likes a high DO.

I would definitely quarantine. High temp, high DO. It looks like velvet from here.

The headstanders are probably picking at it because it's not responding or burying itself (another reason to isolate). Headstanders tend to inspect and chew on anything that even remotely resembles food, and for the size of their mouth, they have a serious set of jaw teeth. my 2¢

[toby]

Thanks for the comments.
I do hope it isn't velvet as that is some serious stuff to remedy. Isnt velvet more of a yellowish/copper looking condition? does the white color of this skin issue rule velvet out?? So at this point possibly a bacterial/fungal issue or possibly velvet or some other parasite? I did lose a geophagus in this tank 4 months ago, fish succumbed to skin lesions and I figured it was aggression at the time and paid no further attention as no one else was affected.
Would I be wrong to try the following: pull the planiloricaria, treat it with antibiotics for the recommended period and see if in a week or so if that has corrected the situation. No other fish in the main tank are problematic at this point.
OR do we think this may be velvet and should I start treatment on this large tank - and then what would the recommendation be - malachite green, raising temps, cover the tank, etc as I have seen in other threads - or are there other alternatives to treat the main tank?

[toby]

Well I pulled the cryptodon and it wasn't real happy to say the least. Immediately rolled over on it's back in the net and didn't even fight - I used a fairly large net - a Python 10" x 8" about 5" deep so there was room in there - I guess he wanted me to think he was done. Transferred to a 25G and started Kanaplex - going to go for 6 days - treat every 48hrs with a WC and look for progress - fingers crossed. Fish was still eating as I dropped in a couple carnivore pellets in the main tank this morning, near him, to gauge appetite as I usually feed them before bed - he snapped them up in seconds. I ordered in some Cupramine (Seachem) and if the antibiotics don't work, either I will try another antibiotic or go to the cupramine. The main tank remains clear - glad I have separate equipment for all the tanks like nets, scrubs, etc - partly good planning/good precaution/experience but mostly my obsessive compulsive tendencies - put everything in boxes and then in neat little rows. If you saw my food containers for all the different pellets/sizes/etc you'd have a laugh.
If there are any other thoughts on diagnosis or treatment, I'd appreciate your feedback and wisdom.

[Martin S]

Think you've dome the right thing. It certainly won't do any harm to treat the main tank with a precautionary dose of something suitable, remembering to increase oxygenation and temperature accordingly. Hope it makes it through, lovely fish so would be a real shame to loase it after 2 years. Good news is that it's feeding, hopefully away from any picking by the synaptolaemus, it will heal and return to full health.
Keep us informed.
Martin

[apistomaster]

I don't see any reasons for using any Ich/Velvet meds especially a copper based preparation.
It sounds like this specimen has been stressed too much by the other competition and successive treatment trials.
I'd would put it in solitary. Be sure to give it some fine sand and refuges.
Use high water quality and regularly feed live worms.

[toby]

I agree that the fish has probably been stressed and as such, yes, I have the fish in solitary right now. Just to clarify, there have not been successive treatments - at this point the fish is in day 3 of being treated with Kanamycin, as I felt the issue may have progressed with a bacterial component. I am doing 40% WC every 2 days with the meds. Once the meds have run their course, I'll keep the fish under observation for a couple of weeks at least, with attention to pristine water.
Tx

[apistomaster]

I may be full of beans, but I suspect that success with this species is highly dependent upon the vagaries of the conditions they are in kept in subsequent to initial capture through their way through the extended distribution system.
I've long been amazed that the survival rates of wild caught fish are as high as they are although some species probably ought not be collected due to being too highly specialized for life in our tanks.
Planiloricaria cryptodon, may be among them?

[naturalart]

some species probably ought not be collected due to being too highly specialized for life in our tanks.
Planiloricaria cryptodon, may be among them?

This is exactly what I'm thinking apistomaster. Would love to know more about their natural habitat.

[Narwhal72]

I don't think this fish should be considered too specialized to keep in aquaria.

It doesn't have an excessively large size or a specialized diet. Solitarily, I would consider them no more difficult to keep than a normal whiptail.

That being said, I have learned quite a bit from keeping them that can help others who have had difficulty keep them in the future. My goal is to one day breed them (which has already been done in captivity).

1. They are somewhat aggressive towards conspecifics. Best to keep an eye on aggression and separate them if necessary. I would not recommend more than 1M and 2-3F in a 6'x18" footprint aquarium. Sexing these fish is quite difficult but I have seen the largest fish tend to be much more territorial and I assume these are likely males.
2. A tank with a large footprint is necessary for more than one. At least a 75 gallon but a 125 or 180 is better.
3. Avoid caves or tunnels where they tend to become trapped. Especially if other loricarids are in the tank.
4. A strong current is appreciated but not absolutely necessary. My 125 moves a ton of water, but the 40 breeder had a fairly gentle current in it.

I purchased 5 of them in 2011. Still have 2. Lost two to aggression, lost one when it became trapped in a cave and a large Pterygoplichthys ate it's back off.

Andy

[naturalart]

Thank you Andy for sharing this information. There is just not a lot of good info in this fish. So as I read what you're saying: It has to be a large footprint, plenty of good burying sand, and that is because they are a very inoffensive fish, with their only line of defense (or offense) is being able to bury itself in the substrate. So the sand is almost an absolute 'must' in many community situations. Otherwise they are susceptible to being chewed on by any number of 'aggressive/hungry' plecos (what happened in my case) and/or other pickers and nippers.

Also, based on what you are saying in terms of territoriality, maybe tody has 2 large males and one is being dominated/stressed to sickness? Andy can you describe how you lost 2 of your P. cryptodon to "aggression"?

[toby]

Andy has definitely brought up some good points. My tank footprint is 72 x 30 where I housed these 2 cryptodon in a community setup as originally posted, and with a little bit of scaping in the tank taking up some floorspace I have found this to be a minimum for the fish to be able to maneuver easily. At 10" in size and an inflexible body, they have difficulty with tight spaces and turning around. In the 2 years that I have had my fish, pretty much each fish kept to 1 side of the tank and I never observed any aggression issues but nighttime may obviously be a different issue. Since I pulled the 1 fish to a hospital tank, the remaining fish has been a lot more mobile, exploring more areas of the tank. naturalart, it could very well be that I have 2 males?? not sure however, while one fish is the standard lightish grey colored we see pictured in the catalog pics, my second fish is a lot darker in color as in the originally posted pic. My fish are dormant and buried most of the day with exception to when I was feeding the other fish - they would be in on the action gobbling up whatever they could, not difficult with slow eaters like geos and heros. And totally agree to the fish being to the point of inoffensive. As I rethought my tank, the synaptolaemus I added to the tank about 8 weeks ago - I had them in another tank here for at least a year so they weren't new fish. Yes, they are pickers - pick "at" and "under" anything that doesn't move, including the inoffensive crypto, looking for food. yesterday they got pulled out of the tank - thankfully they aren't very smart fish - put a decent sized net in the tank and they pretty much swim right in - a saving grace in a large tank. The other headstanders - abramites - had been in the tank since day 1 and have never been an issue with picking.

[Narwhal72]

The ones I lost to aggression were fine one day and the next day their backs were stripped down to the muscle tissue. This occurred the first time when I had 3 of them in the 40 breeder in a breeding attempt. One of the two largest ones succumbed this way.

After that I had a large one and a small one in the 40 breeder for about a year without a problem. Then I lost the small one when it became trapped in a cave and some Ancistrus ranunculus that I had recently added ate off it's back. This is actually a 6th specimen I had forgotten about.

At this point I moved the remaining large one (M?) back into a 125 that already had two large specimens (M?). 2 days later this newcomer was thoroughly ravaged. Most likely as it had no territory where it could have gone to avoid the resident males.

The 125 contains a variety of Geophagus, some corydoras, Panaque, and a number of Pterygoplichthys weberi. All of whom show no interest in the P. cryptodon unless they get into a cave. In which case the Pterygoplichthys will fight to expel them, which is how I lost one of my other small ones.

I won't be acquiring any more for the foreseeable future. But I think that once I have moved out a lot of the fish in the 125 and a 120 I also have running I may try them again.

[naturalart]

Yes, it's obvious this fish comes from wide open sandy areas in the drainages its found in; and there probably aren't too many competitors for it to be concerned with when it comes to food getting.

Narwhal72, is there a link to the breeding event you mentioned, or has it been published?

[Narwhal72]

It was in Amazonas. The Whiptail issue.

[naturalart]

Thanks. Do you know the date of that issue?

[toby]

Jan/Feb 2015

[naturalart]

Thank you Toby.

[toby]

Quick update - I am now 11 days post start of treatment/solitary for this cryptodon and everything is looking up. I treated with 3 doses of Kanaplex, which lasted 6 days. At the 6 day mark the fish still looked worrying, however, there was a little improvement. The fish is in a 30 breeder with some fine sand and started getting daily water changes of ~33% after the meds were finished - I figured I'd keep a close watch while maintaining pristine water conditions and see how things progressed after the round of Kanaplex. The tank is getting very well filtered with lots of surface agitation/oxygenation. The pronounced white flanks are now mostly gone, as is the white area behind the head that was visible in the original pic. There are 2 circular spots around 2-3mm in size that were originally whitish - on one side, that have now subsided in the last 2 days, with now only some white bordering left and original coloration now coming back. The fish continues to eat well and hopefully makes a full recovery. Now all I have to do is figure where the fish is going to go in a months time after full recovery. I could try and put the fish back in with the other cryptodon in the 72 x 30 250G, hoping that the issue wasn't caused by conspecific aggression but the nasty synaptolaemus that were constantly picking on him? My 2 other large tanks that would be suitable in size and layout are unfortunately housed with unsuitable tankmates for the cryptodon - one tank, a 180G has some 4 x 5-6" leporinus pellegrini in it and they would make the synaptolaemus look like boy scouts when it came to picking/chasing and general harrassing. Another well sized tank - 72 x 30 200G has 3 rhinodoras gallagheri in it and that wouldn't probably work out well either.
Thanks for your comments and feedback.

[naturalart]

If it were my fish I would be game for giving it a test run with the rhinodoras. I don't know anything about R. gallagheri but they do exist with other alluvium sifting loricaria in their natural environment.