Zebra pleco breeding facilities

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 08 Sep 2005, 00:11

I have heard rumors of people setting up zebra facilities. I plan on doing this. I plan on setting up 15-20 20 gallon long tanks and after I get my car getting about 8 zebra babies. I know about the money these cost. I plan on raising these to sex, then getting a trio or quad out of these 8. I would then breed these, and raise more babies, setup more quads, and eventaully having 5-8 quads before selling babies. I would then sell babies 1 for $40 or 4 for $120, these would be 1.5-2 inch babies. What do you think. I don't want to sell these for alot of money like people do, I want them to become more widespread across your LFS.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 08 Sep 2005, 00:55

^^

Im not breeding any Hypancistrus so Im not 100% sure about the timespan.
Till the 8 zebras are fully grown youll need to feed them for at least 1 year i guess...
theres a high chance they wont be 4/4
theres a chance that youll lose some on the way

then after 1 year of growing you might have male females that you need to get going...this doesnt happen for everybody right away

so after about 1-2 years youll get 5-20 fry if youre lucky...
then grow these to breeding size...

so after around 4 years youll have stock for 5-10 tanks? depending on how regularly they spawn
and so far you havent cashed in anything and the costs will kill you imo

Not a project for a single fishkeeper imo

ramblin man · Post by **ramblin man** » 08 Sep 2005, 00:58

I'm all for the lower price on Zebras! Someone said that it's the demand that drives the price up, when in reality it's people greed.

If someone has 20 babies to sell and 50 people waiting to buy them, charging a higher price is only making more money for them and not making these beautiful plecos more accessible to the less well off aquarist.

I have no breeding experience with plecos so I can't help with the ratios etc...

Hope all your plans work.

*just a thought - get the Zebs before the car

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » 08 Sep 2005, 01:44

Unless you are very lucky it will take years to grow on young zebras and get them to spawn. It will then take another year or so to get any fry to a decent size to sell. You ask any breeder of fish. The running costs and effort alone costs ALOT! IMO the best way to breed fish is just for the challenge and love of it. Any sale can just go towards your hobby.

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 08 Sep 2005, 01:56

also, a 1.5 -2" baby is realy a juvinile zebra pleco... not a baby. They are 2.5-3.2" fully grown. Not to mention all the inbreeding you would be introduing to the species with your plan. You would be better off buying 20 full grown adults and setting up breeding with the 4 or 5 pairs that would come out of that.

Cheers, Whitepine

fishboy20 · Post by **fishboy20** » 08 Sep 2005, 07:07

While not impossible, it will take some time before you have any fry to sell. After working with Hypancistrus for 3+ years, I just now am able to start selling juveniles. Hopefully sometime next year I end up with 5-6 pairs but then again, that still might be a year away. We will have to see what happens but patience is key. Get fish from several different people for genetics purposes and give them time. You should be fine from there. Good luck!

~Jeremy Basch

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 08 Sep 2005, 12:44

Money won't be an issue, and I already planned it would be at least 4-5 years until I had 5-7 trios. Now, this is a dumb question, but what is inbreeding. I have heard of it, but why is it bad.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Sep 2005, 13:28

Inbreeding is when you breed a close relative to another close relative. It leads to increased chances of genetical defects showing up [most genetical defects are recessive, so it takes both parents to have the gene to actually make it appear in the off-spring].

To make good breeding groups, the parents should be as far separated as possible when it comes to the family tree. Brothers crossed with sisters are a big no-no, as they would have a very similar genetical setup. It gets even worse if this continues down the line so the grand-children are crossed with their own siblings too.

It is very likely that you can do this without noticing for the first generation or two, but sooner or later, you'll have defects crop up, such as deformed body or some such.

Your best bet is to get a set of fish from one source, and another set from another source, where you know that the parent's aren't related. Then only cross females from one set with males from the other, and vice versa.

For the new generation, try to swap some of your male for an "outside" males somewhere, and likewise on the female side for another colony.

Inbreeding is "used" as a tool for breeding certain traits in fish, such as albinism or long fins. But I'm assuming you want healthy, natural looking ones, not long-finned or albino zebra's.

--
Mats

Cattleya · Post by **Cattleya** » 08 Sep 2005, 13:54

Hi

But I'm assuming you want healthy, natural looking ones, not long-finned or albino zebra's.

??? pleas show us somme Links or Pics about this .
I never hear about . I cant belive

Udo

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Sep 2005, 14:25

Cattleya wrote:Hi
But I'm assuming you want healthy, natural looking ones, not long-finned or albino zebra's.
??? pleas show us somme Links or Pics about this .
I never hear about . I cant belive

Udo

I haven't seen, nor am I suggesting that they do actually exist. But if you inbreed any fish, it seems, it will show deformities, and one of those, fairly commonly occuring, is the long-fin variety. Another fairly common one is albinism. There's certainly other deformities that aren't quite as commonly seen, but may be more common in the off-spring, just that they aren't being propagated, since they are either lethal [missing something critical in one way or another], not cosmetically pleasing [didn't stop the gold-fish breeders very often, it seems].

If long fins aren't a common genetical deformity, can someone please explain why there are long-fin varieties of so many different species (and genera). I can think of a few immediately:
- Bristlenose (Ancistrus sp.)
- Rosy barb (Barbus Conchonius)
- Goldfish ( )
- Koi ( )
- Zebra Danio (Brachydanio Rerio)
- Siamese fighter (Betta Splendens)

And some that I found by seearching the web:
- Leopard Danio (Brachydanio Frankei)
- White Cloud (Tanichthys Albonubes)
- Butterfly Cichlid (Microgeophagus Ramirezi)
- Albino Oscar (Astronotus Ocellatus)
- Golden Widow (Gymnocorymbus Ternetzi)
- Serpae Tetra (Hyphessobrycon Serpae)
- Head and tail tetra (Hemigrammus Ocellifer)

To me, that's a pretty long list of different genera and families. Which tells me that it's a trait that will occur in just about any fish that gets (in)bred enough. We just haven't had enough breeders breed the Zebra pleco to get any variants like that. It could of course be that these don't occur in ALL species and all genera, but it seems likely that they will...

My point was more to the direction that Laura probably should/does not want to try to inbreed in a way that may generate these variations or other genetical defects, but rather try to create nice, healthy stock that have a good variation of genetics.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Sep 2005, 15:49

as mats says, inbreeding is very bad.

it's why you're not allowed to marry your sister or brother!

lotsabettas · Post by **lotsabettas** » 09 Sep 2005, 02:59

if in breeding in fish circles is so bad why is it common knowledge in betta breeding circles that the best combination for breeding is a sibling pair not as far apart as you guys suggest

retro_gk · Post by **retro_gk** » 09 Sep 2005, 05:48

lotsabettas wrote:if in breeding in fish circles is so bad why is it common knowledge in betta breeding circles that the best combination for breeding is a sibling pair not as far apart as you guys suggest

Here you are talking about selecting and propagating a particular characteristic (finnage, color etc) where it is to your benefit to cross individuals whose genetic make up is known to you and who carry the desired genes. It therefore makes sense to mate siblings rather than random individuals.

When talking about wild type fish, random pairings are the order of the day, unless you want to propagate a recessive trait like albinism or long finnage....

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 09 Sep 2005, 16:32

unless you want to propagate a recessive trait like albinism or long finnage....

which i would never want to do!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Sep 2005, 16:37

racoll wrote:
unless you want to propagate a recessive trait like albinism or long finnage....
which i would never want to do!

Hence my original comments on the subject. I don't think long fins, bulgy eyes, albinism etc. are pretty. But of course, there are people who find these things nice...

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 09 Sep 2005, 17:40

But of course, there are people who find these things nice...

God knows why?

All those fancy fish look awful.

There are benefits to selective breeding, such as improving crops or making a dog better for a task for instance, but not when it affects the animal's quality of life, like those poor dogs that can't breath because of those huge flaps of skin attached to them.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 09 Sep 2005, 18:04

Which is why I don't like the term "fancy pl*co." I agree, Racoll. The "fancier" the fish, the worse it looks. I suppose it all comes down to aesthetics. Nature made, please.

ramblin man · Post by **ramblin man** » 10 Sep 2005, 07:28

Fancy fish are like looking at a modified car; the owners like them and think they look good but some people look at it and think 'That poor car! Why?'

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 10 Sep 2005, 14:07

Back to the topic...

The earliest that I have experienced L-046 reproduction is at 30 months. My F1's have spawned at an average of 36 months from birth. Is 30 months the minimum age? I don't know, since I haven't run enough formal experimentation for confirmation. Its nature, and far too many variables are in play. However, it is safe to say that you won't be getting meaningful numbers of fry for several years.

Secondly, my best results come from keeping the fish in groups of 2M and 3F. My guess is that there is something about the competition that keeps things moving along.

Regarding inbreeding, I am constantly refusing requests to purchase large quantities of these fish, because ultimately the buyer is interested in breeding. Although substantial, I still feel that my gene pool is rather limited. I would strongly advise building your stock from multiple purchases of individuals or pairs. Think ahead, as you move forward you will need to compose breeding groups of multiple fish. Let's say I started with five groups of five fish. F1 groups, again in fives, could be created by taking a single fish from each F0 groups, yielding many groups, limited only by the sizes of the F0 spawns. (Consider too, the space involved, since you want to give them a year, or more, of grow out so they can be sexed reliably.) However, piecing together the next generation becomes difficult, since you must track who has done what to whom. So, it makes operational sense to take breeding stock from F0 parents and sell only F2's, and excess F1's. Next, as the F0's age, you should consider trading F1 stock with other enthusiasts, keeping everyone fresh. (And yes, I know that true F0's are hard to find. Take someone else's F1 and consider it as a F0 for purposes of discussion. I say F0 here, in terms of the fish being unrelated to its mate.)

Since you will not be selectively breeding FOR some quality, but only to AVOID inbreeding, the management is not that difficult. But you will find space to be a factor. Yields from F0 groups can be raised in separate tanks until old enough to sex. Then, new groups can be built by picking individual fish from those tanks. From experience, the minimum tank for breeding can be a 20L (30"X12"X12"/760mmX30mmX30mm), two of which are also needed to growout the fry from each breeding group. So, fifteen tanks could be used to handle the F0/F1 generation, producing F1 breeding groups housed in as many tanks as you like. F1 output could be raised in common tanks, since inbreeding is no longer a concern. Don't forget, you will need to house those fry for almost a year before they can be realistically sold.

Over time, a breeding group can reliably produce between thirty and fifty healthy juveniles per year. How long do they produce? I would love to know that answer. So far, my original groups, with some shuffling, seem to breed strong for about three years, when frequency appears to tail off. But again, this is anecdotal, and not backed up by formal experimentation.

Be prepared for the long haul. After seven years, I am only now producing F2's in any meaningful quantities. Granted, I started in my basement with limited resources, but even given unlimited space, it would still take four or five years to build a stable, reliable operation. The small yield from each spawn forces you to feedback almost all of your F1 stock into breeding the next generation.

On a positive note, the operation is a pipeline. With careful management, a breeding group can yield fry five or six times per year. It is filling the pipeline that takes patience. So, you may want to get involved in raising a few other species, like ancistrus, to keep a bit of revenue flowing while the others come on line. It also gives you something to do while you are watching L-046 grow at their glacial pace.

Finally, please don't bombard me with requests for breeding stock. I am in the middle of building out a storefront in Maryland, which should be open in November. So, look for us on the net in January. Our online operations should be running by then, and we will putting limited quantities of these and other homegrown plecos on the market for everyone.

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 10 Sep 2005, 15:02

...a few comments on prices and costs.

Just taking floor space in consideration for costs. The room required to produce, optimistically, 30 zebras per year, could be used to house at least four pairs of ancistrus. A nice pair of common ancistrus can be counted on to spawn at least eight times per year, safely yielding upwards of 500 fish. Given a WHOLESALE price of as low as $2.50 per fish, a low estimate on the revenue would be $1250.00 per year. This would equate to a wholesale price on the zebra of $40.00, based on space alone.

However, the labor involved in raising the zebra is about triple the effort needed for the ancistrus. What is your time worth? To be realistic, a wholesale price closer to $70.00 is a better choice, but one that is definitely not supported by even this crazy market.

As a sole source of revenue, the fish is a poor choice. In terms of profit, there are much better candidates. Once the yield falls below 25 per spawn, the numbers start to fall apart.

For the hobbyist, however, it is a decent choice. If you can sell small quantities via auctions, for example, the high retail price provides a reasonable return, and helps to support a great pasttime. As far as the noble idea of getting the fish on the market at a lower price goes, hundreds, if not thousands of fish would be required, which is not very likely.

We can do more to improve the hobby by stimulating the demand for more exotic plecos. LFS owners are hesitant to invest in plecos because they are big ticket items. Remember, the bulk of their sales consists of mollies and swordtails. To get plecos at reasonable prices they must buy in quantity, and the truth of the matter is that our favorite fishes are not exactly fast movers in the retail world. In economic terms, higher demand should increase prices. However, we are at a spot on the curve where wholesale costs plus storage costs, and losses, are inflating the retail price. If the sales volumes for plecos were improved, wholesale costs would drop (due to quantity buying), storage costs and stock losses would drop (due to decreased dwell time on the shelf), and competition would become more of a factor in the retail price. The key is to reduce the risk for the retailer and allow for more flexibility in profit margins. Reference my earlier comments on floor space; an LFS owner has a finite number of tanks. He will fill them with stock that turns a profit. While its fun to fill them up with beautiful examples of the best plecos on the planet, if they don't sell, how do they pay the rent?

So, tell your LFS that you are looking for a certain pleco, the zebra isn't the only one out there. He, or she, may buy ten if you're lucky. Other buyers may fall in love. Go to your aquarium club and tell the sicklid folks that plecos aren't just for garbage patrol. Pump up the demand, and let economics work for us.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 12 Sep 2005, 16:53

/760mmX30mmX30mm

30 mm = 3 cm the width of a matchbox ;)

otherwise its a very good read...i was thinking something like that but couldnt prove it from experience

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 13 Sep 2005, 14:19

Excellent comments, Pl*co Farmer. Best wishes with your business.

fishnut2 · Post by **fishnut2** » 13 Sep 2005, 17:48

Great post pleco_farmer! I can tell you've been breeding for a while, to understand the market that well. Thanks for your input.

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 14 Sep 2005, 02:52

My engineering students would crucify me with that one! Thanks.

30"X12"X12" (760mmX300mmX300mm)

However, a working tank the size of a matchbox would definitely please my wife...