Sturisoma sp.

tjudy · Post by **tjudy** » 08 Dec 2005, 21:45

I am trying to positively identify these Sturisoma sp. that I bought today. Three are most likely the same species, but the fourth seems a bit different. First the pictures of one the the 'three of a kind':

Here is a close up of the above fish's dorsal fin, which is different from the 'odd fish out' that I will show next. Notice the number of bars on the fin's spine... I count five.

Here are some images of the fourth fish. The closeup of the dorsal fin is enhanced to make it easier to see the bars. On this fish I count seven bars.

The last fish is about 2 cm smaller than the other three. he only distincyive color pattern difference (other than the dorsal spine barring) is that the odd fish has more distinct rows of blotches on the body behind the dorsal fin. Face and fin patterns appear to be very similar.

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 08 Dec 2005, 22:14

Looks like to me.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 09 Dec 2005, 07:02

Hi,

It is Sturisoma festivum.
All other discribed Sturisoma-species have other features.

regards
Norman

tjudy · Post by **tjudy** » 09 Dec 2005, 13:42

So based upon the two responses so far there is only one species here, and I am seeing natarual variability ro an age difference? Norman, what are the features this fish does not have that eliminate it from being panamense? Any specific indicators that tell you this is a festivum, or are you making the ID by process of elimination?

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 09 Dec 2005, 14:19

tjudy
I'm no expert on these fish and I looked through some older books and the Cat-elog and
tried to find the closest visual match so Norman probably knows more than I do.

I did notice that this photo shows 7 bars on the dorsal and this one shows 5.
I was also comparing the nose length but both species seem to have shorter noses.

Maybe Norman could give us some specifics on which features he's talking about as it would
help us all in the future. I'm always hungry for information and I soak it up like a sponge.

I just noticed that your also from Wisconsin, I'm in Sturgeon Bay.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 09 Dec 2005, 14:58

Hi,

Okay, if you want to have some input you will get it. ;)
S.panamense is a very rarely keeped species. Just a less of all the pictures wich shows allegedly S.panamense, show really individuals of this species.
This species has a very long and straight doral fin. Against this, the dorsal fin of S.festivum is always bent and much more shorter.
The other common S.aureum has a straight dorsal fin too, but it is smaler than the dorsal fin of S.festivum and just nearly the half of the length of the dorsal fin of S.panamense.
An other point is the bulky front-body of adult S.festivum. S.panamense and S.auruem both are always really slim.
An other point would be the coloration differences between this 3 species. They differs a lot. S.festivum has an irregular coloration along the band at both sides of the body. The both other species have this bands two, but with clean borders. (I hope, you know what i mean)
The most other species have relatively small fins which are mostly not straddled, like you can see it in the named 3 species.

regards
Norman

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 09 Dec 2005, 15:36

AFAIK S aureum is even more rare in the hobby, as it comes from a place where no fish are caught for the hobby at all; so it seems all Sturi's we see are varieties of the S festivum.

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 09 Dec 2005, 16:27

Thanks that exactly the type of explanation I was looking for.
Gotta love the world-wide web and Planet Catfish.

tjudy · Post by **tjudy** » 09 Dec 2005, 21:59

Thanks... great explanation. I am glad that all four that I have are the same species, it means that I potentially have two pairs. Will males get along if I try to keep them a a colony and get a couple more females? They would be kept in a 40 gallon breeder with a few rainbows as dithers.

Post by **Shane** » 09 Dec 2005, 22:32

I'll add more to this post when I get home tonight. The fish above is not S. festivum and I am fairly sure S. festivum has never been imported for the hobby. It is a Maracaibo basin fish and there are no collectors/exporters there (not to mention it is illegal to export from Venezuela). I believe that "S. festivum" is one of those names that has been in hobby for years and applied to the wrong sp. or spp. (like F. vittata being labeled F. acus, Corydoras trilineatus sold as C. julii, etc, etc.)
The above fish looks just like the S. aureum/panamense I collected in the Magdalena basin in Colombia and are exporter for the hobby in massive numbers from there.
-Shane

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 10 Dec 2005, 01:58

That's odd.

I had the impression that it was completely backwards; all the Sturisoma's here in the trade are called "aureum" and I was sure that they are really S festivum because the true aureum isn't imported. now it seems to be in reverse?

it's getting more confusing everyday

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 10 Dec 2005, 08:30

Hi Sid,

In the last time more and more real S.aureum were importet.
Just some years ago you could not found any individuals of this species, but the situation changed.

regards
Norman

Post by **Shane** » 10 Dec 2005, 15:07

S. festivum was described from the Maracaibo basin in Venezuela. There are not now, nor have there ever been to my knowledge, commercial collectors in this area. If there ever are we might see the real S. festivum, Panaque suttonorum, and all the other Maracaibo basin dream fishes.

Here is Schultz' description of S. festivum:
"All fins with first rays elongate and filmentous, the upper and lower rays of caudal fin sometimes as long as standard length."

Now the fish we typically call "S. festivum" (see here http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/lo ... /829_F.PHP) has some long filaments, but I have never seen one where the caudal fin filaments were again as long as the fish itself. It also is simply not logical to identify a fairly commonly imported fish as a sp. from an small basin where we know there is no commercial collection of aquarium fishes. What we call "S. festivum"(see above link) does not even come from Venezuela or Colombia, the two countries with waters linked to the Maracaibo basin, but are shipped from the Amazon region in Peru and Brazil. There is also a photo of S. festivum in "Peces del Catatumbo" (Galvis et al 1997) and it does not match with the fish we see in the hobby. Their photos show a fish with very, very long caudal filaments as described by Schultz.

The bottom line is that I do not know what the identity of the fish we call "S. festivum" is, but it is not S. festivum. There are several described Amazonian spp. that it could be.

The main Colombian centers for Sturisoma collection are Villavicencio for S. tenuirostre and the lower Magdalena for S. aureum. S. aureum are collected in massive numbers and pretty much every Colombian exporter is holding 1,000s of these fish at any given time. Sturisomatichthys leightoni are somethimes mixed in these shipments as bycatch.

Here is a shipment just arrived in Bogota from near Santa Marta. Note that they are kept with goldfish because they are considered a "cold water" fish.

Here is a close up of a large male. Note the curved dorsal. The curved dorsal is shown in Steindachner's 1902 illustration of this sp.

S. tenuirostre shipped to Bogota from Villavicencio.

A few odd Sturisoma and Sturisomatichthys do arrive from Puerto Carreno (Orinoco river), but never in any large numbers. This fish came in from the Rio Atabapo

There is a second sp. that shows up in shipments from the lower Magdalena. This is the sp. that we call S. panamense in the hobby. I do not know, however, if this sp. is collected in the Magdalena or collected in Panama and sold to Colombia collectors who then ship them on to Bogota for eventual export. This is a possibility as there is no organized commercial exportation of fishes in Panama and I am sure there are plenty of Panamanians near the border happy to catch and sell fishes to the Colombians for some extra cash.
-Shane

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sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 10 Dec 2005, 19:21

OK

but following this reply, I think the catelog needs a massive overhaul, because in there the "common Sturisoma" (wich now turns out to be NOT festivum, but aureum) is S festivum.....

I have known "Common Sturi's" as "S aureum" for years and years (after they were introduced in the hobby as 'panamense'

).
I was surprised by the fact that at one time, they suddenly were renamed S festivum.
now it seems obvious this decision needs to be turned back; then the catelog is backdated as we speak.....

tjudy · Post by **tjudy** » 10 Dec 2005, 21:46

So... am I to take from this converstation that my fish are either aurem or panamense?

Post by **Shane** » 11 Dec 2005, 00:20

Sid,
We do need to update the Cat-elog, but that is my fault and not Jools'.

my fish are either aurem or panamense?

Yes. I'll bet zebra plecos to guppies that your importer will tell you they came from a Colombia shipment.
-Shane

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 11 Dec 2005, 05:56

Looks similar to these... I never got a positive id on these guys.

tjudy · Post by **tjudy** » 11 Dec 2005, 14:28

How can you differentiate between aurem and panamense? Is collection locality the only way? If collection locality is the only way, why would they be considered different species?

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 12 Dec 2005, 09:55

Hi Tjudy,

So... am I to take from this converstation that my fish are either aurem or panamense?

No, the details of the firstdescribtion speak against it !

regards
Norman

tjudy · Post by **tjudy** » 12 Dec 2005, 14:13

Norman, your description of aurem and Shane's description (quoting Steindachner) are conflicting. The images Shane posted of the fish he describes as aurem clearly show a fish with a bulky body and a niticeably curved dorsal spine. You state that both aurem and panamense have straight dorsals and slender bodies. The type locality argument against my fish being festivum is pretty convincing, but ruling out festivum does not automatically mean that the fish are aurem/panamense. What are the other possibilities if they are not any of the three?

Tough to say where the fish were imported from since I bought the fish from a retailer who got them from a truck-in wholesaler who gets fish from all over... direct import, tranship and farms. These wholesalers are notorious for bringing in 'cool oddball type A' from one place this week, and getting another shipment a couple weeks later and placing them in the tanks with the leftovers from the previous order. I have visited wholesalers and sen four or five different wild ancistrus in teh same tanks, many of which come from completely different river systems, but were being sold as 'wild bushynose pleco'. Most likely, however, they will get oddball fish like these from the same place every time so long as the fish are consitant is size, health and price. I know the fish came from Aquatics, Inc. in Chicago, and the retailer will inquire for me as to where the wholesaler got them from.

Post by **Shane** » 12 Dec 2005, 20:08

tjudy,
You are asking some very good questions. I have been busy with work and have visiting family in town, so give me a day or two to get back with a good reply.
Justin,
Your fish looks like the sp. above from the Rio Atabapo. In the German literature it is called Sturisoma sp. "Colombia." I would rather avoid this name as you end up with S. "Colombia I, S. "Colombia II,Â¨etc, etc. Since we know it comes from the Atabapo, S. sp. "Atabapo" seems a better choice to me. It is also far more descriptive.
-Shane

Post by **Shane** » 13 Dec 2005, 02:58

How can you differentiate between aurem and panamense?

If collection locality is the only way, why would they be considered different species?

The truth is that I am not quite sure. There are two Sturisoma spp. described from North Colombia/Panama and these are S. aureum (Steindachner, 1900) and S. panamense (Eigenmann, 1889). The holotype location for S. aureum is "Bodega Central, Rio Magdalena" (translation: Central Marketplace, Rio Magdalena) and for S. panamense "Panama."

At least we know what river S. aureum came from (assuming it was not caught in another river and brought to the market), even if all we know is that it was bought or caught, in or near, a market somewhere along a 956 mile long river. Panama is not a very big country, but it does have a few distinct drainages and we have no idea which the original came from. We also have a possible major problem here... in 1889 there was no country named Panama (Panama broke from Colombia in 1903, 14 years after Eigenmann's description). The word "panama" means "abundance of fish." Was this word the collector used when he told Eigenmann where the fish came from? Meaning, "I caught it where there were a lot of fish?" Or does Panama refer to a village, town, river, or lake somewhere in some unknown country named Panama because it had good fishing?

In 1889 and 1903, fish descriptions were not written to the standards used by modern taxonomists. Many of these old descriptions are so vague that they are basically useless. Silurus could far better explain why these descriptions are still considered valid. To my mind, nothing would help modern taxonomists like putting these old, vague descriptions before a board that could rule them invalid and free things up.

Here is an S. panamense/aureum collected in the upper Magdalena. I am sure you will agree that it matches very well with your fishes. Note that on this large male the dorsal is not curved. It could be that the curved dorsal (see photo on pg 1 of this post) is a way to tell S. aureum from S. panamense? Now which sp. has the curved dorsal?
Sorry if I am asking more questions than I am answering, but I spent years (2000-2004) collecting these species in Venezuela and Colombia and I still have as many questions as answers myself.