L-173b from Glaser

[TwoTankAmin]

While I am not big on filing breeding reports, I do try, where it is appropriate, to update threads over extended periods of time. I hope it offers a somewhat different perspective. I am up-sizing a couple of tanks and part of this process meant the 13 F1 173b (my tanks, F3 for the line) had to be moved. So I took the opportunity to try for some acceptable pics.

But first, a couple of observations
- The parents were certainly diverse in their appearance and did not look like L173 for sure.
- The offspring are quite diverse in their appearance and none look to me to look like typical L173.
- They also do not look much like their potential parents.
- The two pictured in my post before this one are still looking pretty neat.
- One bigger one has an unusual pattern on its face, a neat "bullseye: on the right side.
- Could the bottom pic show a Fm which may have eggs?

Enjoy

[flh1200]

Thanks for keeping up Posting in this thread. I recently talked to Walter Lechner (Biologist)and he and a Lot of other scientists believe that within the plecos from rio xingu (L66, L173, L236, L333, L399, L400,..)there occurs a Lot of crossbreading - which would explain the extrem Variations within one batch.
Max

[TwoTankAmin]

This is for sure a reasonably certainty. Consider the wormline plecos collected from the Xingu and then consider the only described species there is the zebra. All other describe Hypans are from other rivers.

AT the 2016 CatCon I brought 5 of my F1 L173 because I wanted to ask a couple of the well know pleco experts there about them. Without using names, I was told what I had suspected. L236 may or may not be a species but 173 most likely is. I was also told my fish were 173s.

I have both an adult wild caught group which are not mine and then the F!s I am growing out. No spawns from the adults so far.

For me the attraction of this group of fish is the patterns. The only B&W Hypan. I have kept that breeds true are zebras. There is no doubt from going free swimming until the day they die that they are a zebra.

[Phreeflow]

This has been a fascinating post to read. Really appreciate you keeping this post updated. They are very beautiful fish and I quite enjoy the variability

[pleco22]

Good to see this post again. As I said some years ago - L 173b - is a low quality form of L 173. The problem is, that some breeders have used the variation of L 173 (wich is not that high) to sell their L 173 looking fish as well as L 173b. That means a lot of L 236, L 400 and L 333 and even Hybrids are on the market labeled als L 173b. The fish on the picture are very nice - but a total mess. So please avoid selling these fish as L 173b or any other L-number.

[TwoTankAmin]

Since I purchased these fish from the people who got them directly from Glaser, and they called them L173b, I would sell them as what they came to me as. I see nothing wrong with that. I would point buyers to this thread and tell them whether to buy the fish or not is their decision.

I do not misrepresent what my fish are nor from where/whom they were acquired. And I usually know the origin of any particular tank raised fish I have.

I can also say say they I am also working with two groups of L173. The first is on loan to me to try and spawn and is a wild caught group. The second are F1 L173 I am growing out to try and spawn. There is a pretty fair consistency in the patterning of them as the become adults.

Finally, the people who would be interested in buying these fish as being exactly as described are also savvy enough to understand what they may or may not be getting. So far I have only sold 5 and I am continuing to grow out 13. I buy such fish with my eyes open and I do not try to sell them for insanely unfair prices.

When I sell my L236 offspring which came from a traceable source, I provide a one page paper on them with links to articles and info which points out all the pitfalls. I would be happy to post it or pm a copy if anybody wants to see it.

[Bellenz]

I hope I can share some of our L173B Super

[TwoTankAmin]

Nice fish, do you have any photos of them at closer to adult sizes? I am curious how they turn out.

[TwoTankAmin]

Just a quick update. I was feeding this tank yesterday and I spotted a new fry. It had enough size that I know it has been free swimming for a few weeks for sure. I missed it when it happened.

The 173 and 173b are the largest Hypans I have. They get bigger compared to what else I have kept/keep. They also seem to take more time to reach a size/age where they spawn. The result is they make it quite difficult to confirm the presence of eggs/wigglers/free swimmers.

In the past week or two I have also had eggs from the 236 and 450 groups. The latter have been like rabbits lately.

[amazonaquatics]

Looking great! Let me know when you have some fry available! ;)

[TwoTankAmin]

I have been busy and was out of town for a long weekend, so I was unable to report I have a dad on eggs. I was doing some work in the fish space last week and spotted him. Today is was in that room and noticed there were 3 males caved, including the one on eggs.

Off-topic: I came home with 7 new wild caught Alum angels I picked up from Mark Denaro at the new store he works with in PA. I finally bit the bullet and replaced some of the ones I lost years back from the hip accident.

[TwoTankAmin]

Time to update things. I pulled the breeder tank apart today to collect offspring. I nabbed 2 juvie/sub-adults about 2 inches TL and then about 20 fry. These were two distinct sizes. In addition I removed 3 caves with males in them during the process and I am certain there were some number of fry in two of them. I still have all 7 breeders.

Again, hats off to Repashy foods combined with Hikari frozen.

Edit- Oops, I just reread the above and saw I added a 0 to the number of fry. Its 20 not 200. I have removed the extra 0, sorry.

[bekateen]

Well done, TTA. Keep them coming.

Cheers, Eric

[Raul-7]

Good to see they are thriving and obviously breeding; keep up the great work. I've learned a lot from you over the years and hope you are doing well.

[TwoTankAmin]

This may be one of my most favorite posts I have ever made because the subject is not a common one for me. I rarely keep any of my pleco offspring. I will do so to replace lost fish or to try for F2 fish. But I pretty much move them out as I have space limits.

This past week I was working on the growout tank for these guys which held about 16 fish of assorted sizes. I spotted what looked like a tiny fry, which i figured must really be a small piece that came off a bogwood. When I put on my glasses to look, I was not that. It was a tiny fry and had to have been born in the tank.

That means I have taken these fish to F2 my tanks. I am really chuffed about this. Not bad for an I have been trying for F2 zebras with no success for over 7 years.

[TwoTankAmin]

Pulled 61 L450 to grow out yesterday. They vary in size from fry to a few at about 175 inch. The recent wigglers from the 173 seem fine and I now regularly spot a few offspring whenever I do tank work.

Tomorrow's project is to get the 40 breeder going and move two tanks of 173b offspring into this tank. I am not sure what to do about the bigger ones who must have been responsible for the recent spawn in one of these tanks. I have a spawn in the breeder tank now as well as some more offspring. I do not want to risk the pecking order reverting to chaos and interrupting a spawning run.

Oh yeah, there is a 236 on wigglers. When it rains it pours.

Anybody out there who may be in the neighborhood of zip code 10549 who would like to stop in and bargain for some fish, shoot me a PM. I tend not to ship over the summer. I am a great shipper in cold weather but not in hot. If you bring your bathing suit, you might even get to jump into the pool.

[TwoTankAmin]

Today I am in the process of taking down the 20L and 10 being used to grow out 173bs and moving the contents to a 40b outside on the screened terrace. I will get a decent count and a chance to examine them all. Well almost all since there are more offspring in the breeder tank.

One observation here. In the last night or two I have spotted some of the bigger fish in the 20L. One for sure seems to be morphing into a typical 173 pattern. I had not seen this before. So I can no longer say none of them look like typical 173s.

I am a horrid photographer and I hate trying to get pics on the fly, so no promises. But I will try to dig out the camera before I go back to work on the move. My guess is I have a total offspring count of at least 40 now.

Edited to report results-

The count was about 48, I was uncertain as I had two spawning dads. One on the last few just free swimmers. These guys were pretty fragile and I hated to move them. The other cave the dad was on wigglers. So I am not sure how many i actually have. Given the recent activity in the breeder tanks I think I must have a bunch more, maybe 12 -15. I thought there were a number of females but I could not stop to vent them all.

[TwoTankAmin]

Cleaning the grow out tank today and spotted a couple of brand new fry. here are five caves in the tank and all were occupied, one I think by a fat female. I am not sure who is doing the spawning.

[bekateen]

Congratulations TTA. You may not know which female is working, but they're working. Gift horses always accepted.

Cheers, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

I expect to be listing L236, L173b and L450 for sale to members at a discounted price in about 2 weeks. I will also donate a portion of such sales to PlanetCatfish.

What is most interesting about the 173b is it is impossible to know how they might end up looking until they get there. There are some really neat looking fish. I have one I call a yoyo pleco because its stripes resemble those on a Yoyo loach.

The "real" L173 is the same way. They all look different as they morph over time. The difference is the 173 all turn out looking similar in the end.

I am beginning to think that 173b may not be related to 173 unless it is contributing to hybridization.

[gehandylan]

Here's an extract from the authoritative article 'Chaos in Black & White' that appeared in Reef to Rainforest regarding L173 and 173b ....


"Hypancistrus sp. L173 is a highly sought-after but controversial form from near Belo Monte. The similarity to H. zebra is striking, especially in juveniles. However, there are differences: L173 has brown eyes, a rather off-white base color, a variable wormline pattern, a taller and more compact body, and a longer caudal fin. This form also grows larger than H. zebra. In the hobby, L173 was unfortunately hybridized with H. zebra to produce more of the “L173 type.” Some L173 lines differ so much from the norm that it is hard to believe that they belong to this form. Not all individuals have the typical pattern. Some offspring of L400 show a pattern similar to L173, hence, a close genetic relationship is very likely. It is important to note that L173 is not a morph of H. zebra, as was previously assumed.

The commercially available L173b should be regarded with skepticism. (The “b” was introduced by Aquarium Glaser. Specimens that differ externally from the normal habitus were identified with the letter “b.” Individuals with a typical pattern and color would therefore be “L173a.”)"


Here's the link to the full article ....

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/04 ... ack-white/

[TwoTankAmin]

TY- I reference that article when I sell 236. I know that the fish I have are real 173. They are different from the 173b which I also have. I have my own theory about the 173 which may or may not be correct. Unfortunately, it is based only the ten 173 I have which have spawned and another unrelated group of 14 F1 purchased via the same source but not bred by the seller. Then there are the fry I have gotten from the first group, which very well may be wild fish. But there is no way to know this for sure. However, I believe it to be true.

I can also tell you that experts I greatly respect were kind enough to look at some of my F1 group and they confirmed they are what I bought them as. I needed to know for sure before I could say any fry they grow up to produce are the real deal. I never want to sell a rare fish that is not really what it is supposed to be.

A good friend recently cam by to take photos and vids of some of my fish and to take some home to sell. So I should have pics and vids of all of the fish were are discussing to include L450, L236, L173b and L173. I have copies of what was shot day one but she has to send me the day 2 stuff. She also shoots raws and high quality jpgs, so I need to crop and resize stuff to post it here. But I will do so in the not too distant future. I have no clue re editing vids.

[gehandylan]

TwoTankAmin - It would be great to see pics of L173 and L173b side by side so that we can understand the difference between the two. Look forward to seeing the pics.

How much does L173 fry go for in the US?

[TwoTankAmin]

I don't know of anybody selling them. That means there are so few people spawning them that it is hard to find anybody doing so. It isn't that they are super hard to spawn, they are a Hypan after all. But finding them in the first place is the problem.

If I put all 10 of my breeders in front of you, it would be easy to see they are likely the same species from how they look. The 173b are supposed to be offspring that do not look like 173. I am not sure any more if this is the case. I sold 6 adults out of my grow tank today. I had gotten a spawn or two in the tank which means somebody is good to go. None of them looked like 173. Some were really nice looking fish, but they would never be identified as 173 based on their appearance.

My F1 group I purchased is now in the "zebra phase." One or two have started to show a hint of the zig zag pattern. I have pics, but I have to shrink them or Jools will sue me for commandeering his server to host my pics But here are two of the 173 breeders I did get resized (the pics not the fish).

Edit:
I just remembered, in the very first post in this thread, I put a link to extensive pictures of the L173b I got from Glaser. http://twotankamin.smugmug.com/Fish/L-173b/n-chr5b Compare them to the two above
Edit: to put Rachel's credit on the pics.

[TwoTankAmin]

Here I am years later and It is time for this species to depart my tanks. They will be going to new homes shortly. I recently did a head count of offspring I still have for the recipient. I thought they would bring this thread to its conclusion by posting the pics. Unfortunately I breed much nicer fish than I take pics, sorry.

[TwoTankAmin]

One more pic-

[bigshawn]

Nice

[bekateen]

You do, TTA, indeed breed nice fish.