Chaetostoma Died

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 13 Jun 2005, 12:17

The Chaetostoma sp. that graced my company died overnight. It was most likely due to fluctuations in tank temps. We've been having warm weather here in the Boston area. I'm in tears.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Jun 2005, 12:32

Oh no. Sorry to hear that. It was a beautiful fish.

I saw some nice looking "Chaetostomus" (sic) at the local fish shop, and I thought about buying one of them, but decided to not do that, since I wouldn't have the right cool water...

I think Shane had a problem with overheating Chaetostoma in his river tank.

--
Mats

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 13 Jun 2005, 14:21

Thanks, Mats. I'm glad I took so many pictures of him. There are more in the camera, waiting to be downloaded.

Okay. I've calmed down. I noticed that the tank is cloudy. The sort of cloudy that happens when your tank is cycling. STUPID ME. I left the CO2 pump on overnight.

I had it on a timer, but I've been resetting them. I messed it up. I feel like a fish killer! Uggggghhhh!! Deep breath, I need to calm down again. I put 2 airstones in the tank and did a water change again, even though I did one yesterday. It's a little less cloudy and all the fish aren't hovering at the surface. But, they are breathing heavy. There are 10 Otos at the airstone. I don't think this is good. There are already 3 powerheads(without Venturis) in this 75 gallon tank. I'm going to slow down my expansion plans, me thinks. I need to learn to take care of what I have first.

Here are the latest values:
GH: 6
pH: 6.8
Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrate: 0.0
Temp.: 75.1 F.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Jun 2005, 14:45

I'm not sure about your analyzis on why it's cloudy. If it was cycling, you'd probably have high nitrite and/or ammonia values. You quote "Nitrate 0", did you mean nitrate or nitrite? If you meant nitrate, I'd recommend testing for nitrite too.

I'm, however, fairly sure that your CO2 system has added to the stress of the Chaetostoma.

Oto's at the airstone tends to indicate the same, low O2/high CO2 (they aren't necessarily related, but both will make high CO2 in the blood of the fish, which means the fish feels the stress).

The pH seems pretty neutral. What do you NORMALLY have in this tank (or in your refill-water)?

--
Mats

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 13 Jun 2005, 17:16

you have to have a very high ppm co2 to kill the fish... I think it is somewhere around 150ppm. I typically run my co2 in my tanks around 35 ppm. If you know your kh and ph you can use this link to check your co2 level.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

I hope this helps.

Cheers, Whitepine

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 13 Jun 2005, 19:03

Whitepine,
I remembered your link from an earlier posting. I went there a little after logging out of Planet Catfish. These are the values:
With a pH of 6, and a GH of 6, the CO2 was almost 29 ppm. Right at this moment, the ph(with an AM Pinpoint monitor)is 7.01, with a GH of 6, still. The CO2 dropped to 18 ppm. I've disconnected the unit for now. The pH seems to be rising.

Here's a picture of the tank:

There's also a whitish substance developing on the glass that seems tasty to all tank occupants:

This picture was taken after I scraped the sides a bit to get rid of it. I installed the check valve properly on the CO2 line, but I'm wondering if some of the yeast/sugar mix can grow in the tank, somehow. Just an off-the-wall thought.

The nuisance snails are still alive, the nuisance duckweed is all still alive. This morning, the Tetras were all at the surface, gasping for air. The snails were all at the top of the tank, too. But, as soon as I began to take action, the snails went back into hiding.

I normally keep this tank at 6.8 or 6.9. It was becoming difficult to keep the levels stable, so I started adding a portion of tap water to the RO water, instead of using chemicals. This seemed to work very well at keeping the levels stable for a full week. Ironically, this tank looks exactly as it did when I first started it up and it was cycling.

If any of these tank occupants live, it won't be my doing.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 14 Jun 2005, 09:58

Whilst I wouldn't be SURE it is so, I would almost guess that you have some sort of fungae, for instance yeast, in the tank.

I'm a bit surprised it would get that bad that quickly however. I'm not at all sure what's going on there...

I'd keep doing the water changes, and try to keep an eye on other possibilities for why it's gone bad.

Hope it all goes well.

--
Mats

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 14 Jun 2005, 22:29

This was a picture from this morning:

The slime settled on the plants:

The remaining inhabitants look alright. I'm going to continue in this manner until things have completely stablilized. I could analyze this a million ways and still be confused. We had thunderstorms this afternoon and the temperature went from 89 degrees F.to 68 degrees F.in one hour. I cleaned off all the plants. I was able to salvage most of them. Near the CO2 pump, the stuff was so thick, like cobwebs.

natefrog · Post by **natefrog** » 15 Jun 2005, 01:45

Did the line from your CO2 pump have any thing liquid or solid in it? Is it possible that aside from the CO2 potentially spiking you had a drop in the dissolved O2 to critical levels as the bloom of fungus or bacteria used up most of it metabolizing sugar in the tank? These are just some thoughts...that is a weird one.

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 15 Jun 2005, 06:42

It almost looks like green water... which is a algea bloom. Where the "cobwebs" green threads?

Gh and Kh are two different thinks. Kh refers to carbonite hardness or buffering capacity. This use of most kh/ph charts will not work if you have high levels of phosphates in your water supply. Test your water before you add it to your tank and see what the Kh is... if it is higher than 5ppm you probaly have another buffer source(such as phosphates).

I am not sure of the source of your problems... but what natefrog is suggesting is possible. also bottoming out of any of the following: nitrates, phospates, co2, and micro-nutrient can all lead to algea problems.

Cheers, Whitepine

jen.nelson · Post by **jen.nelson** » 15 Jun 2005, 21:34

Bronzefry,

I am so sorry to hear about your loss. What you're experiencing looks like something that I had happen in my quarantine tank when it did a little "mini-cycle" right after I added more fish - but the white stuff appeared to be a fungus (when it grew on food it had a distinctly fuzzy fungus appearance). No one died from it, though.

Could it be that the death of the fish caused a spike in ammonia --> nitrite which caused a bloom of some sort?

Again, sorry for your loss, and don't beat yourself up too bad. Accidents happen, and it looks like you're taking the opportunity to learn, so that's really the best you can do.

Hugs,
Jen

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 15 Jun 2005, 21:56

This is where it was last night. It looks even better now:

When I cleaned even further last night, I found a concentration of the "cobwebs" near the output of the CO2 pump. I didn't think to get a picture. The area was about 6" by 6" by 1/4" dense in the lower left corner of the tank. I couldn't see this area when the tank was cloudy. I trimmed some of the plants back. The tangled mass smelled like Sourdough bread starter.

You're right, Whitepine. I get dyslexic when I'm tired. Kh and Gh are two completely different readings. I do have the Seachem phosphate and iron tests lying around so I did both of those today. I did them twice, with the controls, and a second tank, as a third control. The 75 gallon tank had normal chelated iron levels: 0.2. The control came out at exactly 0.4 as it should have. The second tank came out at 0.1. The phosphate test came out unreadable for both tanks, but the reference value was 1.0, which was appropriate. I've ordered a new "basic" testing kit, one that includes both Kh and Gh.

metallhd · Post by **metallhd** » 15 Jun 2005, 23:58

Bronzefry wrote: When I cleaned even further last night, I found a concentration of the "cobwebs" near the output of the CO2 pump. I didn't think to get a picture. The area was about 6" by 6" by 1/4" dense in the lower left corner of the tank. I couldn't see this area when the tank was cloudy. I trimmed some of the plants back. The tangled mass smelled like Sourdough bread starter.

Boy, that really sounds like you blew some yeast or something into the tank somehow, which was what I was thinking even before I saw your latest pics . . . Is the CO2 disconnected now? Do you have a regulator unit? My home-built unit prevents exactly this sort of disaster two ways - one, the bubbles go from the generator bottle through another bottle with just water (a bubble counter of sorts), and more importantly, there is a stop valve on the line so the water can't back up into the CO2 mix, this is specifically to prevent contamination because the CO2 bottles are behind and lower than the tank . . . Looks better now though! Sorry to hear about your loss

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 16 Jun 2005, 16:02

I was wracking my brain. I remember an instance over the weekend when the bottle containing the mixture toppled over when I was resetting the timers. I didn't think anything spilled. Apparently, it did. I have completely disconnected the unit and am rethinking the use of CO2 in my tanks. It worked for the plants, but not the Chaetostoma. Lesson learned the hard way.

There's an L-147 finishing his/her quarantine period. I'm wondering if it would be okay to transfer to this 75 gallon tank. Should this species have it's own tank? The other occupants are 10 Otocinclus, 8 Paleatus Corydoras, 6 Callistus Tetras and 5 Pristellas. I also have an empty 29 gallon tank. I haven't set it up or cycled it yet. I could set this tank up around the L-147.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 Jun 2005, 09:56

Bronzefry wrote:I have completely disconnected the unit and am rethinking the use of CO2 in my tanks. It worked for the plants, but not the Chaetostoma. Lesson learned the hard way.

Yes, I think the Chaetostoma spp. are the most likely to suffer from high CO2, since they are least able to increase their breathing (I'm remembering something like that from Shane's posts, I don't remember the details tho').

There's an L-147 finishing his/her quarantine period. I'm wondering if it would be okay to transfer to this 75 gallon tank. Should this species have it's own tank? The other occupants are 10 Otocinclus, 8 Paleatus Corydoras, 6 Callistus Tetras and 5 Pristellas. I also have an empty 29 gallon tank. I haven't set it up or cycled it yet. I could set this tank up around the L-147.

I think the L147 would be fine in the big tank. In theory, you could have one per square foot in the tank, assuming you have plenty of hiding/partioning "furniture" in the tank. I've got two L15 in my 100g tank, and they are aggressive to each other, but not overly aggressive (just defending their own territory, sort of thing).

--
Mats

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 17 Jun 2005, 14:10

I got the new testing kit, the Tetra "Laborette" kit. Here are this morning's values:
pH: 7.0(electronic meter)
KH: 4
CO2:12(No supplements)
(I used Whitepine's link. Using the chart enclosed with the test kit, the CO2 was 13.)
GH:6, still
NH3/NH4(Ammonia):0 (this is how the test kit is labeled)
N02- (Nitrite) : <0.3 (this is how the test kit is labeled)

The L-147 still won't stick to the front of the glass during daylight, but I've seen he/she do it during the night.(I'm using a lower wattage fluouro strip, too). A 10 gallon tank isn't really a fair place for a Peckoltia sp. I've been reading Shane's article "Plants and Pl*cos." I really don't feel confident enough in my skills to try a Farlowella or Sturisoma just yet. I know I was in over my head with the Chaetostoma. After the next water changes this weekend, I'll give the L-147 a try in the 75 gallon to see how things go. I'll also start setting up the 29 gallon. I have all the substrates, driftwoods, lights, filters, etc. I usually like to cycle a tank for a month or so using plants.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 Jun 2005, 14:22

My two Peckoltia Vittata (L15) don't seem to harm the plants in my tank, nor are they "bothered" by the plants. Admittedly, the plants are both relatively hardy and fast growing, so maybe my example isn't a good one.

Running the tank for a whole month before putting fish in seems a bit excessive. I doubt that the plants produce enough ammonia to cause the tank to be cycled by that time, so I'd rather put some hardy fish in there after a week or so, and then put the "real" fish in after the nitrate has spiked (when nitrite and ammonia have both gone low). That's my method, and I'm not saying it's better than yours, just that's what I've been doing and no major mishaps yet... Touching wood...

--
Mats

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 17 Jun 2005, 20:50

I moved the L-147 today. So far, so good. I'll post the pics in a different thread.