Tatia intermedia fry

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 18 Sep 2006, 23:06

Today I did a major water change in the tank where my eight Tatia intermedia live. Later I noticed this clutch of eggs in a pit in the sand, I guess it was washed away from under a root. When I siphoned it up I saw that every one of the around 100 eggs is wagging its tail.
What a nice surprise!

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 19 Sep 2006, 07:30

Daniel, congratulations. I will look forward to seeing how the new Tatia's do. It is encouragement for me to keep up the hopes of having my Tatia perugiae spawn. I had a brief thrill when I spotted a few fry in their tank awhile back but it was short lived. They were baby catfish alright but they were Corydoras paleatus. Apparently some Corydoras eggs were attached to plants or driftwood I moved into the Tatai tank.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 19 Sep 2006, 14:54

Daniel, that's great. Congrats on the good work and keep the fry alive. The CateLog states Unreported in "Breeding", so keep your eyes open. Pls keep us posted on these and the T. taeniatus.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 19 Sep 2006, 20:18

Super, i've got a HUGE lone female I need to get some more. What size are your adults?

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 19 Sep 2006, 21:26

Waldo wrote:Super, i've got a HUGE lone female I need to get some more. What size are your adults?

8-9 cm, I guess. They're still growing.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 19 Sep 2006, 23:01

Mines about 4.5" ~ 13cm. She's eating whole salad shrimp.

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 20 Sep 2006, 18:09

Two days have gone, and it looks like the fry are about to break free.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 20 Sep 2006, 19:12

spectacular photo's. You can see their eyes and everything.

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 21 Sep 2006, 08:47

Excelent what are the water parameters and conditions in your tank?

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 21 Sep 2006, 09:11

grokefish wrote:Excelent what are the water parameters and conditions in your tank?

Soft, pH 6,5 and 27 C. I use no additives or RO-water. The tanks is 210 litres - 100 x 60 x 35 cm - with a fairly strong current and a huge sponge filter. There's lot of wood to hide under. They mainly feed on frozen artemia, krill and mysis.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 21 Sep 2006, 16:26

daniel60,
I'm glad to see the Tatia embryos are coming along so well.
They seem to produce very few bad eggs and you are going to have quite a few. Too bad for me that we are separated by the pond. I would love become one of your first customers for some of the young. Congratulations on your acheivement.

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 21 Sep 2006, 18:38

Thanks!
This is what the embryos are doing right now.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 21 Sep 2006, 21:58

Daniel,
That little vid is cool. I guess I should select a pair or trio out of my large group of T. perugiae and set them up in their own tank for some privacy and see if that will induce them into laying eggs as the females are certainly fat enough. There are 20 in a 20L with some miscelllaneous fish so it is'nt the ideal spawning tank. Even though the woodcats are so reclusive they are very interesting especially at night when they become very active. I think having your own (huge) school of fry will be quite a sight. I'm sure you will take more photos at each step of the way and I will be looking forward to seeing them.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 22 Sep 2006, 14:24

daniel60 wrote:Thanks!
This is what the embryos are doing right now.

Hi Daniel,
For some reason I can't open that video, just like the one with the Cetopsis. I can view the Pelvicachromis and the lobster video though. Any suggestions?

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 22 Sep 2006, 16:44

Marc van Arc wrote:For some reason I can't open that video, just like the one with the Cetopsis. I can view the Pelvicachromis and the lobster video though. Any suggestions?

You need Quick Time. And I need a proper video camera...

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 22 Sep 2006, 18:53

daniel60 wrote:You need Quick Time

Thanks, that helped. I needed to upgrade my QT version.
Nice video

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 26 Sep 2006, 00:01

A week later... here's a 7-8 mm long fry. It's not the easiest fish to get a picture of.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 26 Sep 2006, 17:27

Definitely amazing!! Keep on making notes and pictures, so you'll have good material for a very nice article.
Well done

.

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 01 Oct 2006, 23:29

First I guessed they were around 100. Now my estimate is... 300. This is what they look like now:

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 02 Oct 2006, 07:56

wow

looks like certified pioneering work to me

how do they behave? the first picture shows a swimming Tatia, but the second already the characteristic "don't mind me laying here, I'm just furniture" behaviour of Auchenipterids.
they just lay about until you feed them?

or do they mill around in a swarm at dusk or so?
I can't see the video's, so I have to ask you. (quicktime messed up my PC a few times, so it's not going to be installed again)

amazing!

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 02 Oct 2006, 09:15

Thanks!

sidguppy wrote:how do they behave? the first picture shows a swimming Tatia, but the second already the characteristic "don't mind me laying here, I'm just furniture" behaviour of Auchenipterids. they just lay about until you feed them? or do they mill around in a swarm at dusk or so?

Yes, the fry on the first picture kept swimming for a minute in the photo tank. Now, they swim around just for a few seconds.
In the tank they're hiding as long as the lights are on in the other tanks. When the room is completely dark they come out and start hunting, and continue swimming until the morning. I have never seen them lying still in the tank (believe me, I've done some serious stalking with a flashlight).

sidguppy wrote:I can't see the video's, so I have to ask you. (quicktime messed up my PC a few times, so it's not going to be installed again)

The video just shows the fry before they started swimming around. Not much action there!

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 03 Oct 2006, 20:45

Daniel,
For night viewing there is the old trick of using a 15 watt red incandescent light bulb over their tank. They will not notice that they can now be seen and you will enjoy not having to shine a flah light. At this size they should enjoy fd bloodworms crumbled finely with your fingers as Tatia seem to be very surface oriented feeders. I enjoy watching my T. perugiae using the red light technique. They sure are fast and active at lights out and I am always amazed at the quantities of both fd and frozen bloodworms they can eat. I agree that it is cool to be doing pioneering work on a previously unreportedly bred before fish. Your contributions will aid us all who are working with this catfish group.

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 04 Oct 2006, 00:10

All seems fine with the fry, but it's always nice to know that you get another chance if you need one. So this was a pleasant surprise tonight:

And the whole gang:

I found the eggs on exactly the same spot as the last time, in a small pit in the sand. And this time I hadn't done a water change. I think this is where the female lays her eggs, not under a piece of wood.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 04 Oct 2006, 01:05

I think I will revise my spawning tank setup to include a thin layer of fine sand just in case the T. pergiae make use of a pit like your fish are. I was just going to try a bb with driftwood and caves.
Larry

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 04 Oct 2006, 03:30

Fine sand is THE way of adding a substrate in ANY catfish tank. size should be 1-2mm max, the finer the better.

gravel is sooooooo passe

bad for the whiskers, accumulates loads of dirt, looks ugly (like a pebbled roof), plants don't grow in it as well as in sandy substrate and on and on yibbery yabbedy

looks like you got a Tatia factory on your hands Daniel!
time for a CotM about it?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 04 Oct 2006, 15:13

I agree with using very fine sand rather than gravel. The i-2 mm particle size is what I use with catfish and Apistogramma breeding tanks unless I can get away with just a bare bottom. I use flat pebbles interpersed with the fine sand for Hyancistrus species.
It is too fine though for use in a heavily planted display tanks.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 04 Oct 2006, 21:06

Daniel,
What I can't tell from your posts is if there are any other fishes in that tank. If not, how do the adult Tatias behave with regard to the eggs?
Trachelyopterus species are known for not guarding but also not eating their eggs. Can you confirm this for the Tatias or did you remove the eggs shortly after you had discovered them?

daniel60 · Post by **daniel60** » 04 Oct 2006, 21:48

Marc van Arc wrote:Daniel,
What I can't tell from your posts is if there are any other fishes in that tank. If not, how do the adult Tatias behave with regard to the eggs?
Trachelyopterus species are known for not guarding but also not eating their eggs. Can you confirm this for the Tatias or did you remove the eggs shortly after you had discovered them?

I removed the eggs within a few hours, I think. The female was not guarding them (I don't even know which female it is). The first time the Tatias were alone, but a few days ago I put three adult Scleromystax barbatus and two Pseudohemiodon apithanos in their tank. None of the fish seemed interested in the eggs. Maybe the gelationous cover makes them difficult to eat? The cover seems to protect the eggs well, I haven't seen any fungussed egg at all.
Both times the eggs were already hatching when I discovered them. Does the female wait that long before she lays the eggs? Then they're almost livebearers!
Yesterday the first fry (two weeks old) started eating frozen food (blackworms and plankton). What a relief.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 05 Oct 2006, 22:37

daniel60 wrote: Does the female wait that long before she lays the eggs?

There should be some weeks between the mating and the laying of the eggs, but you're the expert now.....

The pictures of the fry are marvellous and your last one shows an already recognisable Tatia. Some of them should go into the Cat-eLog!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Oct 2006, 10:22

Yes, please post some of your photos to "webmaster (at) planetcatfish (dot) com". Jools will then add them to the page.

--
Mats