Breeding Gold nugget

816johnv · Post by **816johnv** » 07 Jun 2007, 11:51

Hi all,

i was wondering has anyone managed to breed L18

i was wondering how difficult they where to breed????

what environment they need for breeding caves etc???

cheers

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 07 Jun 2007, 12:31

There is a breeding description in the Cat-eLog for one of the L-numbers of "Gold nugget" - I can't say if it's on L18 or one of the others - there shouldn't be a huge difference between them in breeding behaviour.

I must also add that there are, as far as I'm aware, no other Baryancistrus that have been bred in captivity.

On a scale of 1-10 where 1 is easy, 10 is near on impossible, I'd put these at 9. There's no such thing as "impossible to breed in captivity"[1] - it's just a matter of finding the right "recipe", sufficient fish, space and a lot of patience!

The biggest problems are:
1. These fish are relatively slow growing and often sold at relatively small size, and probably need to be a good 6-8 inches to be mature to breeed.
2. They are hard to determine sex on at younger age.
3. They are fairly territorial, so you need a decent size tank to make the breeding colony grow up in.

Their natural habitat is a mixture of stones and sand, so a "stone" cave is the best candidate, for example using ceramic or slate tiles is a good way to create such a cave.

From the breeding report (from memory) it's a case of good food, drop in temperature and raised flow that sets of the spawn. So generally the same way as most other Loricariidae.

[1] There are some fish that require a HUGE amount of effort to simulate the right circumstances in the breeding situation - migratory species would be in this category. Other fish require such huge space that they become quite difficult to breed and raise in captivity. But nothing is impossible. [Joke: But putting toothpaste back in the tube is very close to impossible]

--
Mats

816johnv · Post by **816johnv** » 07 Jun 2007, 12:46

thanks for the quick reply what size tank would you think would be the smallest you could breed these in if succesful and how many of them in the tank???

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 07 Jun 2007, 12:55

If we assume they are mature enough to breed at about 8 inches, you'd need a tank that is AT LEAST 8*4 x 8*2 x 8*2 inches, so 32 x 16 x 16 inches. But I'd probably aim at a 4-5 x 2 x 2 ft tank, to allow them lots of space.

Plenty of man-made caves and large stones forming "natural" crevices. Fairly high current [perhaps a river tank setup?] Probably no plants. [There certainly aren't any plants in their natural environment].

I'd start with group of about 6, and as they grow, you should be able to tell which are male/female based on odontodes and perhaps also body-shape. That is assuming you can't find well-grown (8-10" adults) that are already sexable [but most newly imported fish have lost their odontodes and are usually not gravid, so hard to determine sex of anyways].

Water should be soft and on the "slightly acidic" side.

This is of course pure guess-work, but it's how I would start out and see how they get along.

--
Mats

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 07 Jun 2007, 16:04

Hello,

The breeding info in the cat-elog was taken from my work with these fish. In the case of L18, I wouldn't advise anything smaller than a 75 gallon. Mine were spawned in a 50, but was homemade with a depth, front to back, of 18 inches. They are mature from 7 inches SL and not very easily sexed unless your proficient with vent checking.

If this is a planned project, I would give it a lot of thought first since it takes a minimum of 4-5 years to grow them to breeding size and would require a lot of tank space to grow a group to that size. I simply got lucky from a group of 3 fish in that respect.

As to spawning, it is fairly straightforward in most respects. The only real deviation to take into consideration is the length of the dry season. 2-3 months should be the minimum considered. Because I was still working on this method when I spawned mine, I was only able to get 2 spawning cycles from them. The second occurred after they were moved to a different tank and was only triggered accidentally.

Larry Vires

816johnv · Post by **816johnv** » 07 Jun 2007, 16:11

Thanks for the great help i was after breeding a species of pleco to make a few quid think i will go for something a bit easier..

anyone got any suggestions???

cheers

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » 07 Jun 2007, 18:14

If you can find a store close to you that will buy fish from you, breed common Ancistrus. I'm a store owner and have purchased well over 400 young Ancistrus from a local breeder. I won't tell you exactly how much I pay for them but, suffice it to say, the breeder is quite happy with the extra income.

These are relatively easy and (more importantly) inexpensive to breed and the right store will move a lot of them quickly. We sell them as algae eaters to people with smaller aquaria so that they don't have the problem of an enormous pleco in the tank.

The cost of raising other "fancy" plecos can be much higher and in the end not yield as much money as the more common species. This is not to say that you shouldn't try breeding the more difficult fish. By all means, do so. But if your primary interest is selling the offspring, stick with the easy ones.

A mature pair of Sturisoma would also be a good choice. They're easy to breed and relatively fast-growing. We have a 40-gallon tank here that satisfies local demand for S. barbatum quite handily.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 07 Jun 2007, 20:30

Hello,

As both a breeder and seller, I can confirm what Andrew is saying in regards to Ancistrus. However, I would be questionable about jumping straight into Sturisoma. The fry can be a bit tricky to grow to an acceptable size. Although there are a few out there doing it successfully, the vast majority of spawns are still dying off at an early age.

Larry Vires

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » 07 Jun 2007, 21:07

Collard greens... Clean and separate the leaves, put them in the freezer separated by wax paper. When feeding time comes, put them on a weighted vegetable clip. 90% survival, 4-5 months to market.

I did not develop this regimen, pleco_farmer (my business partner) did. He went from 10% survival to 90% or better with the Sturisoma after using the collard greens.

816johnv · Post by **816johnv** » 08 Jun 2007, 09:47

Thank you all for your help i purchased 4 common Ancistrus last week but they are still a bit young to sex yet but i do plan to breed them in the Future i was just trying to get a rough idea of what seem to be easy to breed and worth selling. I was breeding Guppies and Sunset Platties very well but my LFS would not give me what i wanted for them they where offering me pennies so i gave my Female guppies/platties away because i was over run with fry and decided Plecos are more Expensive and a lot more challenging so we will see what happens....

Thank YOu for your help

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Jun 2007, 10:37

Yes, guppies and mollies need to be fairly mature to sell well, which means that you need to keep them a long time (and they still cost about a pound or two each to buy in the shops if they aren't VERY special - which means that the shop buys them from the wholesaler for something like 25-70 pence each [roughly 25-33% of the marked price]), and they breed so easily that most people who have them get more than they need.

I know that most shops buy Ancistrus as babies at around 1". You won't get much for each baby, but at least a bagfull of babies will give you some money (or more likely "shop credit") - which is more than my shop does for a bagfull of 1" mollies. Don't expect to get the same amount of money as the wholesaler - but if you get a bit of money, that's better than not getting any, right?

The problem with the more exotic plecos is that they are harder to breed and grow slower than Ancistrus, and since you need more money for them, the shop needs to sell them for more, which means that there are less customers for them, etc, etc. If you have 100 baby Gold Nuggets, I doubt that even a larger local shop would buy all of them at once. 100 baby ancistrus perhaps, if they are a good price [because they will sell relatively quickly, and are a less fragile to keep in the shop too].

--
Mats

816johnv · Post by **816johnv** » 08 Jun 2007, 11:49

yeah i never looked at it like that to be honest i dont suppose they would buy 100 Gold nuggets i dont think i have ever been in a shop that has had more than 5 in stock so i think i will just see how breeding and selling Ancistrus goes if they do breed fingers crossed.

is there anything special i can feed them or do to make them grow faster????

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Jun 2007, 11:57

Plenty of (variying) vegetables with an addition of algae wafers and some other "meaty" food now and again (no more than two-three times a week).

Temperature around 27'C, good water conditions and plenty of dissolved oxygen will all help them grow nicely.

Check out the Feeding article I wrote (listed in "Articles(1)" in the footer of this post).

--
Mats

816johnv · Post by **816johnv** » 08 Jun 2007, 13:25

Once again Thank you.. what a good read that article is i have been feeding mine 1 Algae wafer every day and every couple of days a piece of cucumber about 2 cm thick.. i might see how they like Brocoli... is there any veg that will cause any problems to the water Quality???

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 08 Jun 2007, 21:18

I've referenced this several times, and it's probably time that I ask Shane or Jools about listing it on this site. This is an article about what I do with common Ancistrus types that seems to work very well for a lot of people.

http://www.plecobreeder.com/ancistrus.htm

Enjoy,

Larry Vires

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 10 Jun 2007, 06:04

Andrew,

I'm curious if you are using canned or fresh collards. I've been giving thought to trying my hand at Sturisoma again, but my last group showed me exactly how lucky I was with my original group. I still think it's strange that I was getting practically no losses with them, and was getting practically no survivors with the last using identical conditions. I'm willing to give anything feasible a shot with these since they are one of my favorite species to spawn. Watching eggs develop isn't something I get a chance to do with many species.

Thanks,

Larry Vires

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » 10 Jun 2007, 20:17

Fresh collard greens. As you know, when they are frozen the cell walls are popped so it's easier for the baby fish to eat. Microwaving or dipping in boiling water to do the same thing seems to cause problems with uneven "cooking" and the fish don't seem to like it as much as the frozen and thawed leaves. We find it easiest to separate the leaves with wax paper in a box in the freezer.

Collards have the highest protein concentration of all of the commonly available leafy vegetables. They also don't have the problem of too much iron like spinach does. In addition to the Sturisoma, Ancistrus fry seem to really appreciate the Collards, although they aren't as finicky or lazy as the Sturisoma are when it comes to eating.

We find that a spawn of S. barbatum can go through an entire 9-10 inch leaf in 24 hours, leaving nothing but the heavy veins of the leaf behind. We usually have a good population of snails in the rearing tank too. These seem to do a good job of picking up what the fry miss so the tank is less likely to get skunked.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 11 Jun 2007, 14:56

816johnv wrote:Once again Thank you.. what a good read that article is i have been feeding mine 1 Algae wafer every day and every couple of days a piece of cucumber about 2 cm thick.. i might see how they like Brocoli... is there any veg that will cause any problems to the water Quality???

Some stuff aren't quite as good as others, but if you get water quality problems, it's most likely because you're feeding too much of something that doesn't last "long enough". I had problems with "cloudy water" when I put a quarter "baby avocado" in my 96 liter (25 us gal) tank - no problem with samller portions tho'.

Try a small piece. I've put almost any type of vegetable/fruit you can imagine. Although I wouldn't recommend really soft juicy fruits, such as oranges.

Mango is a favourite, as is any form of melon.

--
Mats

816johnv · Post by **816johnv** » 11 Jun 2007, 15:07

ok i will try a few diffrent fruit and veg and see which they seem to like thanks

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 Jun 2007, 15:14

One of the foods I use as a staple when growing out Ancistrus species 3 is earthworm sticks. I supplement this with fresh blanched Zuchinni/cougaerette.
Fortunately bn fry accept many foods so feeding them is not problematic. A variety of foods is always a good idea.

816johnv · Post by **816johnv** » 11 Jun 2007, 15:25

This might sound stupid but will they eat live Earth worms??? or will this not be a good idea???

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 11 Jun 2007, 15:28

Live earth-worms are probably a bit too big for bristlenoses.

--
Mats

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 19 Jun 2007, 23:15

Larry hit on the head...watching the eggs develop is the best part of sturisoma husbandry...and don't be shy about putting a big collard leaf in the tank, the big green billboard that says "FOOD" draws our fry from one side of a 40 breeder tank to the other. If anything else, its a neat way to collect them, if you wish to isolate them in another tank. After watching this, I am hard pressed to conclude that they are shy about eating.

Sinatra · Post by **Sinatra** » 12 Jul 2007, 13:40

Andrew wrote:Fresh collard greens. As you know, when they are frozen the cell walls are popped so it's easier for the baby fish to eat. Microwaving or dipping in boiling water to do the same thing seems to cause problems with uneven "cooking" and the fish don't seem to like it as much as the frozen and thawed leaves. We find it easiest to separate the leaves with wax paper in a box in the freezer.

Collards have the highest protein concentration of all of the commonly available leafy vegetables. They also don't have the problem of too much iron like spinach does. In addition to the Sturisoma, Ancistrus fry seem to really appreciate the Collards, although they aren't as finicky or lazy as the Sturisoma are when it comes to eating.

We find that a spawn of S. barbatum can go through an entire 9-10 inch leaf in 24 hours, leaving nothing but the heavy veins of the leaf behind. We usually have a good population of snails in the rearing tank too. These seem to do a good job of picking up what the fry miss so the tank is less likely to get skunked.

G'day Andrew

Here in Australia, we don't have collards, however we do have Kale. Would this be a good enough supplement for collards?

Thanks

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 12 Jul 2007, 17:54

Collard Green is the same as Kale in England. However, I do realize that some 12000 miles away, the same name may well be used for another "cabbage-type" vegetable. I would give Kale a try tho'.

It's not like the natural habitat contains either of Courgette/Zucchini, Collard Greens/Kale or tablets made from spirulina and fishmeal, or any of the other foods we tend to give our fishes for that matter. So the fish are quite flexible. It's just a case of finding something that is a readily taken, easy to find in local shops, reasonable price (you don't want to feed your fishes Russian Caviar all the time) and don't make the water clowdy in an instant. Try reading my article on Feeding (linked with "Articles(1)" below). I've probably tried three dozen different foods, but I tend to come back to the same courgette, beans and some broccolli left-overs - but that all depends on what you often find in the local stores, what you personally feel like giving the fishes and what you find works for you.

--
Mats

tadj · Post by **tadj** » 18 Nov 2007, 09:24

[quote="pleco_breeder"]Hello,

The breeding info in the cat-elog was taken from my work with these fish. In the case of L18, I wouldn't advise anything smaller than a 75 gallon. Mine were spawned in a 50, but was homemade with a depth, front to back, of 18 inches. They are mature from 7 inches SL and not very easily sexed unless your proficient with vent checking.

If this is a planned project, I would give it a lot of thought first since it takes a minimum of 4-5 years to grow them to breeding size and would require a lot of tank space to grow a group to that size. I simply got lucky from a group of 3 fish in that respect.

As to spawning, it is fairly straightforward in most respects. The only real deviation to take into consideration is the length of the dry season. 2-3 months should be the minimum considered. Because I was still working on this method when I spawned mine, I was only able to get 2 spawning cycles from them. The second occurred after they were moved to a different tank and was only triggered accidentally.

Larry Vires[/quote]
any pictures of the fry?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 18 Nov 2007, 15:36

I also use earthworm sticks as my primary food for both the Sturisoma breeders and their fry. I have very high survival rates. 80 to 90% survival is normal.
This is a much easier way to feed Sturisoma fry. I have found it best to rear them in aquariums no taller than 12-inches.