Otocinclus Breeding

[James0816]

Think I'm gonna bust a theory here. I had a gallon of aged and treated water ready to go. This morning I placed an air stone in the jug to get it well aerated. Just a while ago, I performed a 10% water change. Since I was getting a little slag on top of the water, I placed the air stone back in the tank after the water change.

Within minutes, I lost two fry! WTH! I just don't get it. Temps were fine, parms were fine, all was fine. Just a simple itty bitty water change. Dang that ticks me off. I think what I am going to do now is just do routine top offs while there is fry in tank. I need to go back and review my notes to see what I'm doing differently and back all the way up. I believe my best results came with little air stone usage.

[MatsP]

That is strange to me.

What are the parameters (KH/GH, conductivity, pH) of your water - both tank and "new" water...

--
Mats

[James0816]

Counted (14) wigglers today. Didn't find the other older fry. I think they may have perished with that last water change as well. Very odd.

Running the air stone for about an hour to break the surface. Debating on whether I should continue the 10% wc/day test. I have a gallon aerating as I type. If I decide to do the change, I'm going to trickle the new water in the tank. This should hopefully avoid any major swings.

Prepping more zucchini for the tank.

[James0816]

Here's some parting shots from today:

Eyes haven't developed quite yet on this guy.


Wee one with Mama Tiger keep a close eye


Here's a little interesting one. I didn't notice the little surprise guest up top until after I was going through the pics.

[nj2tou]

In regards to what food otos will eat, mine seem to really like green marine algae. I buy packages of it and tear off a small piece, attach it to the suction clip that came with the package and lay it on the bottom of the tank. After it softens up a bit, I'll see them on it eating. Some of my cories like it too. I haven't tried zucchini in a while as it seemed to foul the water and I never really saw them eat it. I'm gonna try again and see if I get better results with it. I might have boiled it too long or something.

[James0816]

Seaweed has been a fairly good option too. I haven't found anything to replace the zucchini at the moment. The Ken's veggie feeds go over good as well.

[James0816]

Another 10% water change today. This time I drew the water out slower and trickling a new gallon back in. It is half way done now....an hour later. Better safe than sorry. The interesting thing though...my snails obviously know the difference even at this slow drip rate.

Only found (5) fry today. On the brighter side of things, found (23) new eggs. I don't think I'll add any additional food today. I still see fragments floating around.

[James0816]

* DISCLAIMER *

We interupt your normally scheduled journal update to announce that this is not an April Fool's joke. We now return you to your programming.

* DISCLAIMER *

Picked up a new/used 5 gallon tank today. Going to use this for a fry tank...hopefully. Being that it was already set up, it shouldn't take much to keep it going. Will be putting old water in it to keep it cycled.

Anyway...daily check of the tanks.

First stop was the main tank. Since mama laid some eggs yesterday, I had to check on everything. Mama Oto literally "eggs-ploded". Eggs, eggs everywhere. Between the eggs she laid yesterday and the ones found today, the count now stands at (105)! One is non viable and I will remove it shortly.

Now...the startling discovery. I was walking from the backside of the main tank through the doorway which takes me past the Juvie tank. Something catches my eye. Upon closer investigation...FRY! Most Excellent! I looked further and was able to find a total of (4) fry in this tank. I think it is safe to say that this is no longer a Juvie tank. ;o)
Over 50 Oto's in this tank and there will be absolutely no way of know who the parents are.

Simply Awesome!

Getting ready to do another 10% wc in the main tank.

[James0816]

I'll leave you with this shot from today. Mama and some of her handy work:

[MatsP]

Great work. How old do you reccon the fish are in the "juvie tank" that are breeding.

--
Mats

[James0816]

I converted my river tank over to it's current setup back in Nov-09. A majority of them were moved over at that time. Most of them are 5-6 months old. I have a few in there are older and a few that are younger.

[Nx7]

小鱼是如此可爱

[Farid]

小鱼是如此可爱

farid

[James0816]

Started setting up the new hatching/fry tank yesterday. Got it cleaned up and put in SMS and a container of sand. Having issues with the temp at the moment. Can't seem to get it below 80. I'm going to unplug the heater and monitor to see where it gets me. This tank is one that has the light in the hood and it's hinged. I can take it off if need be but would have to make a new light for it.

Today I started placing some plants in it. I put in two small Anubias 'petite' and a small wad of java moss. Will be putting some more stems in later.

Went over to do a 10% wc on the main tank. Visibly saw a fair number of fry in and about. Didn't bother counting as I was on a mission. I took my gravel vac and removed some detrius/mulm from the tank and placed in (2) quart jars. I'm going to use this to make green water for the fry. So finished removing the water and started the drip of the new jug going in. Kinda made a mess of things as there is stuff floating all around and coating the plants. I really wasn't taking my time as I didn't think much of it other making sure no fry were in the area.

Added a small vial of my pulverized food for the fry guys.

While that was dripping, I scanned the tank to make sure all was going well. SURPRISE! Found eggs. Mama beat me to the punch. Quick count found (26). Kewlness. Didn't even get a chance to finish the fry tank. So now I'm debating if I should attempt to move any eggs over to the tank even though it has just been set up. Hmmmmm....decsions, descions. Any thoughts?

Over in the holding tank, I was able to locate (2) fry there.

[apistomaster]

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume Otocinclus can begin reproducing at only 5-6 months old.
This is very much in line with my experience with Corydoras hatatus. I have seen 3-1/2 month old males participate in the chase of a spawning female!
Also, despite the initial rocky start Sturisoma spp present with fry survival, they can begin breeding as early as 9-10 months old.
This is much different from what most of us experience with the various smaller fancy pleco spp.

You may want to read my article here in "Shane's World" about raising Sturisoma fry.
The pertinent points I would make are the desirability of fairly shallow water, small tank initially and substitute Spirulina Sticks where ever I wrote earth worm sticks. I think you will have to make larger water changes than what you have been doing to maintain water quality in the small stater tank. As long as the source water is the same and it has been dechlor/dechoramined, if these chemicals are in your water supply, then simply aerating and achieving temperature equivalence 24 hours before use should be enough. If the water is of the same chemistry then this simple aging should allow making very large water changes perfectly safe. The best way to handle your breeding/rearing tanks water supply is to use a reservoir like a covered, clean, 33 gal plastic garbage can.
You can not feed enough food and maintain high enough water quality without having to make frequent large water changes when using a confined space(5-10 gal rearing tank). I think shallow water is a factor of great importance for these Otocinclus fry during their first few months. That is why I would use a 10 gal tank half filled rather than trying to work with a 5 gal tank.

I would abandon using anything that raises the TDS/pH and use your source water "as is".
I also think supplying the fry with the dried seaweed is very sound advice

[James0816]

I would abandon using anything that raises the TDS/pH and use your source water "as is".
I also think supplying the fry with the dried seaweed is very sound advice

I'll swing by and read your write up. If you're using a 10g at half full, how are you filtering it (if at all) with the low water level?

As for using my source water (well water) "as-is", that's pretty much what I am doing now. After it has sat for a couple of days, I find the PH does come up to about 6.4. My goal with the new fry tank will be to maintain a PH around 6.8-7.0 at first to see if I get better results with the fry at a lower level.

I'm also going to include more java moss in there as well.

The tank should be ready by the time she lays another batch. I'm leaving her latest brood in there as I decided it was just too early to move to the tank.

[bronzefry]

Happy Spring, James!
Amanda

[apistomaster]

I use a Marineland Duetto 100 Multifilter. They are an inside canister filter designed to be used in both aquariums and terrariums with pools as shallow as 2 inches. I cover the inlet with a pad of blue bonded filter mat. You can adjust the flow rate from low to high. https://www.petsolutions.com/Default.as ... D=51306940

[James0816]

Quick spot check of the fry guys. I was able to count just a little over (30). Little guys are growing nicely showing excellent color at this age. Getting ready to pull another 10% wc. Did not see any other eggs from yesterday.

Might not be able to get to the fry tank today. I believe I will have a few more days to work on it.

[Mike_Noren]

I think shallow water is a factor of great importance for these Otocinclus fry during their first few months.

Just curious as to why you think this is? For their ability to get to the surface for air?

[apistomaster]

Hi Mike N.

I explained at length my theory about shallow water being best for the fry of Sturisoma and other non-pleco loricariidae fry.
It is all in my "Raising Sturisoma" article:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... 3C%2Fem%3E

Perhaps it seems far fetched but I based it on pers com with my Venezuelan fish guru' field observations, Ed Ruiz and my personal experience of getting higher than average survival rates among Sturisoma fry. I happen to think I made some valid assumptions but they are merely my theories subject to testing to determine if I am correct or not. My theories are easily tested using the scientific method.
I think much of what I wrote is applicable to all but the plecos as far as a beginning point if raising Otocinclus, Parotocinclus, Sturisoma Farlowella and many of their relatives.

I use much of what I have learned about hydrology and fish biology as an expert fly fisherman of trout, studying the life cycles of aquatic insects and fish prey species of trout and the way the fry of fish occupy different niches at different stages in their development. I am a very "technical" fly fisherman who has been fly fishing even longer than I have been involved with fish breeding. I design and tie all my own flies and always catch more fish than most fly fishermen on the same lake or stream. They say 10% of all the fishermen catch 90% of the fish and that statement is true. I am definitely among that 10%.

My two passions complement each other very nicely.

[James0816]

Ok, lots of going on today.

- First off...Mama has started laying her next batch of eggs. I didn't bother to count at the moment as I have too much to do.
- Quick scan of the tank and found (6) of the bigger fry guys. Didn't look too hard but didn't like what I saw. Hopefully with how well these guys are growing, they might make the magic mark.
- 50% water change in the fry tank in preparations to move over a very small test batch. I found a stem of L. Arcuata that looks to have about (5) eggs on it. We'll see. Current Flora includes (2) Anubias 'petite', (2) small wads of Java Moss, (1) small Java Fern. I might add a couple assorted stems later. Just want to make sure to have good coverage for them. Still no sign of Diatoms yet but should be starting to develope any time now.
- 25% water change in the holding tank.
- Dripping new water in both the main tank and the CRS tank. This will be my new staple for these two tanks.

Heading back down to finish up for the eve. Will try to get base count of the eggs as of today.

[apistomaster]

I bet you could breed your Otocinclus in a permanent colony type of set up and raise Crystal Red Shrimp in the same tank. I do this with Dwarf Corydoras and Cherry Shrimp for years at a time. I learned the hard way that my fish tanks get too warm in the summer to raise CRS. I began a culture with a couple dozen with some Aspidoras pauciradiatus and by May I had many hundreds of small CRS coming along but then it turned warm in May and the water exceeded 80*F and I lost my entire Crystal Red shrimp colony within a week.
The main point is that the shrimp do not harm the eggs, larvae or fry and if enough plants are provided(I use Tropical Hornwort, Ceratophyllum demersum) the fish will lay their eggs among it's needles and the larvae forage over the large surface area the Hornwort provide so they get plenty of diatoms, algae and the various critters collectively called aufwichs by German aquarists.
I forget what species of Otocinclus you have been breeding but I noticed they are not the type most commonly sold in shops in my area. I like the species you are breeding and I think you are doing a good job with them. I always wanted to breed a related fish, Parotocinclus spilosoma or the smaller species I presently have, Parotocinclus cf. epplyei. I haven't gotten lucky in that department yet but it is encouraging to see others like yourself breeding some Otocinclus.

[James0816]

Thanks. I do currently have a trio of O. Macrospilus in with the CRS. They have displayed some spawning behavior at times but have yet to actually go through the motions. The tank they are in is a 20high. I'm not too fond of it but we'll see how it goes. I have (2) 10s setup and aging. I'm looking for O. Flexilis and Cocama at the moment.

I'm a little concerned at the coming summer to as it relates to the CRS. Right now, I have a very nice colony established of CR/CB. Several adults still berried. But as you mentioned, the heat is what I will need to keep an eye on.

Over in the main breeding tank, I keep yellow and tigers in there as well. They do a good job of removing the fouled eggs before I can which is a plus.

[apistomaster]

I think Cherry Shrimp can survive and breed anywhere from 55*F to 90*F. Very tough little animal.

[2wheelsx2]

I think Cherry Shrimp can survive and breed anywhere from 55*F to 90*F. Very tough little animal.

I am not sure about the breeding, but they are indeed very tough and can survive a range of temps and pH ranges.

[James0816]

Ok, was contimplating moving a crypt over that has (9) eggs on it. After carefull consideration, decided to leave it alone. Moved over 1 stem of L. Acuata and 1 stem of L. Repens for a total of (5) eggs.

10% water change, dripping new gallon as I type

Counted (8) wigglers in the main.

Glad I only moved over a very small amount of eggs. Think the PH in the fry tank is too low (for me at least). It is right around 6.2(ish). Might actually be lower. My goal for the fry is 6.6 for this round of testing. But I can work on the low number and adjust using crushed coral (very tiny amounts) to get it right where I want it.

On a side note, I caught another yellow shrimp molting. Again...Wayyyyyy Kewlness! I tried to snap some pics so we'll see how they come out. He popped out of the skeleton too quick.

[James0816]

As expected, hatching occured today.

The main thing I'm watching in the fry tank. Out of the (5) eggs moved over, (2) were bad. This is not attributed to the tank itself as over in the main tank, most of the eggs in Ludwigia area went foul. The L. x Arcuate stem that had (3) on it faired better. I found one wiggler on the glass and another on a leaf. This particular stem is dying and wilting pretty fast so I can't get a good look at it. The main thing is, with the PH at this level, the eggs will hatch. That's a plus. The tank also has low lighting. It's a Irridescent bulb at "25" watts but not bright at all. Funny thing about it, they say it is designed to grow plants. Doubt that it would at all to grow anything. But it doesn't matter in this tank as darker is better.

Over in the main tank, I did find several non viable eggs on the substrate. Interesting as it took a while for them to foul. Usually in the first 24 hours, I can spot a non-viable egg even before it goes all white. With that, I did not find any wigglers in the Ludwigia area. Didn't seem to be that many eggs there.

Over in the Bacopa and Crypt's, nearly all of those eggs hatched and i found lots of wigglers. I'm putting the hatching rate of this brood at ~ 80%. Rough calculated guess. On the one small crypt that I was going to move over, there are (11) wigglers around it.

Now we see what we can do to keep the numbers. Since it is a small brood, I can experiment just a little. 10% water changes to start tomorrow on both tanks.

[James0816]

Quick morning check before walking out the door.

I started with the main tank first. Still counted all (8) of the older fry. Getting close the magic number. Keeping fingers crossed. Still lots of new wigglers hanging tough at the two day mark. If I get home in time, I may try to get a count. This was a good hatching.

Over in the fry tank, I was also welcomed with a pleasant surprise. Out of the (5) eggs that I moved over, I knew (2) eggs were non-viable. I immediatey found the (2) I knew hatched out. I then located the third wiggler. To my surprise, I found (2) more wigglers. So I moved at least seven eggs and have (5) wigglers in the fry tank at the moment.

[apistomaster]

In WalMart's pet dept they sell incandescent threaded base compact fluorescent daylight(6700K) bulbs which are only about 15 watts and they run cool, last a long time and grow plants well for only about $6.00 each. They are a great replacement for incandescent bulbs.