Looking for help to ID unknown Characin

[sunfish]

Hey,

I recently got a tetra (contaminant in a shipment of neon tetras). I thought it was a pepper tetra (Axelrodia sp.), but upon closer inspection I fear it is something completely different (probably Anostomidae). Since I am anything but an expert on tetras I am looking for somebody who might be able to tell me what I've got there (and whether I should start looking for a nice, tropical indoor pond). I am basically looking for something like this forum, only for tetras. Any suggestions?

If anybody here can help me, please do. I even got decent photos.

[MatsP]

Do you have a photo - there are a few people on this forum that knows about fish from other forms than Siluriformes, you know...

Edit: I'm also asking around to see if any of my scientist friends knows anything (or of someone) that knows this group...

--
Mats

[sunfish]

That's what I was secretly hoping for... ;) Thanks-.

Yes, I do have a photo that I could post tomorrow (it's stll in my cam). The fish in question looks very much like a (very small) Anostomus that's dressed up as a pepper tetra. It also feeds like those (i.e. in a headstand).

[Mike_Noren]

Try posting the pic here and we'll have a look.
You can also try posting it to www.petfrd.com, there's some very knowledgeable people there (but registering to that forum is difficult).

[Suckermouth]

I'd at least be able to tell you what family it's in. I don't know if I've ever seen a headstander that looks like an Axelrodia, but many anostomids that look very much like members of other groups and are possibly mimics (though this possibility has never been studied). Give us a pic and I'll be able to say whether or not its an anostomid for sure, but I won't be much help below the family level.

[Richard B]

Hmmmm, i'm really interested to see what this turns out to be...

[Marc van Arc]

but I won't be much help below the family level.

I might be.

[kruseman]

Are you sure the unknown fish showed up in a group of NEONtetra's (Paracheirodon innesi)? These fish are mainly bred in Singapore and have not been cuaght in the wild like Paracheirodon axelrodi. It is very unlikely there are other characins in the same shipment.

Neontetra:


Paracheirodon axelrodi:


When looking at tanks full of the latter species I'll almost always find some bycatch like:
Gnathocharax steindachneri:


or (really nice!):
Poecilocharax weitzmanni



Keep us informed. Characins are marvelous!

[Marc van Arc]

When looking at tanks full of the latter species I'll almost always find some bycatch like:
Gnathocharax steindachneri:

Have you seen those recently Arjan? These are quite brilliant!
I have seen them in shipments of hatchetfish; can't recall them in Cardinal batches. Used to have a few for some time in the old days. Wouldn't mind getting some!
I momentarily have some Bryconops caudomaculatus (or something closely related; were offered as B. impai), which are rather assertive despite their (still small) size.
Btw: your G. bondi now live in Tilburg in a 1200 liters tank. I was told they were doing great.

[kruseman]

If I'm not mistaken my / our LFS in Helmond has some individuals at the moment.
But youre right: You also see them in shipments of hatchetfish.

So the bondi's went to mr. Sidguppy. Good adress.

Slightly off-topic. Sorry Sunfish.

[Mike_Noren]

On a completely unrelated note... see that white tip on the adipose fin of that neon? I bet you it's a female. I've never seen it explained anywhere, and not all females have it, but whenever you see a tetra of any species with a white-tipped adipose, it's a safe bet it's a female.

[sunfish]

Wow, so many responses. Thanks everyone.

Are you sure the unknown fish showed up in a group of NEONtetra's (Paracheirodon innesi)? These fish are mainly bred in Singapore and have not been cuaght in the wild like Paracheirodon axelrodi. It is very unlikely there are other characins in the same shipment.

I'm not really all that familiar with english common names. Over here P. simulans, innesi and axelrodia all go by "neon". My fish came from a shipment of one of the two latter. I must confess I never bother to check wether they are neon tetra or red neon. I actually have a tank full of contaminants that came with those. They are definitely WC and there are contaminants in virtually every shipment. I gave up on the weitzmanni (they didn't survive), but I got Axelrodia sp. (neither risei or stigmatias) and about 5 or 6 species of beige fish with a black spot at the base of the dorsal.

When looking at tanks full of the latter species I'll almost always find some bycatch like:
Gnathocharax steindachneri:


Keep us informed. Characins are marvelous!

Those (or at least fish that look very much like those) are my favourites.

And here's the fish in question. I am actually hoping that you'll tell me that I was completely wrong with the Anostomidae. TL about 1.5 inches. The lower half of the eye is actually light blue and there is an orange (fluorescent) spot above the black one.



Here you can at least guess that there is something orange at the base of the caudal.

[Marc van Arc]

No Anostomid.
Could be Bryconops, Curimata, Curimatopsis.....
But at school atm, so no fish books available currently.
I'll try to get back to you later on.
Maybe someone else has already filled you in by then?

[racoll]

Axelrodia stigmatias?

[kruseman]

It sure looks like Curimatopsis. Maybe C. evelynae.

[Silurus]

I agree with Curimatopsis evelynae.

If you refer to Rich Vari's paper on Curimatopsis, you'll see that it's a good match.

[sunfish]

Thank you so much guys. I was way off then. But Curimatopsis is much better. Based on the few pictures I could find she has quite some coloring up to do. Does anybody know if this species is comercially imported (I'm guessing no)?

[apistomaster]

Except the Axelrodia racoll mentioned, most of these oddball Characins are bycatch contaminants found among large shipments of Cardinal Tetras and Pencilfish.
Among Pencilfish the hunting for Copella spp is especially good. I like collecting as many new to me Copella and Pyrrhulina species I can and then try to breed them. I have bred 3 species so far which are never found in quantities. They generally aren't colorful enough to become very popular but they all have unusual breeding habits compared to most Characins. The most famous example are the Splash Tetras which lay their eggs above the water line but the rest usually spawn on a leaf and the male will stand guard over and fan over the clutch of eggs.
The fry are very small and require infusoria for the first 10 days or so until they grow large enough to take mikroworms and Artemia nauplii.
Collecting the unusual makes a fun sideline to the hobby.
I have found very small juvenile Apistogramma species among Cardinal Tetras. I found Apistogramma pertensis and Apistogramma gibbiceps. I raised them and eventually bred them. I only paid Cardinal Tetra prices to get them and they would have been much more expensive had they been actually shipped as Apistogramma. You never know what and when you will find something special mixed in.

[kruseman]

Does anybody know if this species is comercially imported (I'm guessing no)?

Yes, it is. I've seen some about 2 years ago in a shop in Nijmegen, Netherlands (Close to the German border).
I failed to buy them; a mistake I still regret. Wonderfull fish!
I always check out shipment of tetra's (P. axelrodi and P.simulans) but I've never seen Curimatidae as bycatch. Great find!
I have also seen them on stocklists in advertorials of the German magazine DATZ.

This shop: Tropic aquaristik
http://www.tropic-aquaristik.de/upload/ ... privat.pdf
No C. evelynae this month...

Thanks for the article, Silurus. It's on my harddisk already

[Suckermouth]

Woah, now I have a reason to actually look at the tetra aisle. Cool stuff!

[sunfish]

This shop: Tropic aquaristik
http://www.tropic-aquaristik.de/upload/ ... privat.pdf
No C. evelynae this month...

I know that shop. It's very close to where my parents live. They have the really cool stuff.

Good to know I'm not the only one with a contaminants-fixation. I usually get them for free from my LFS (and I suppose the salespeople there think I'm slightly mad ). I never found anthing as cool as Apistogramma, though. But I managed to get a nice group of various tetras:



And while we're at it, is this Gnathocharax steindachneri? And before anybody asks, I have no idea what bristlenose this is.



And I am really proud of this little fella, first baby-tetra I've ever had. He has somehow managed not to get eaten.

[Marc van Arc]

Hi Tina,
Surely you're not the only one!

The pictured fish is not G. steindachneri; it's too rounded. G.s is a rather slender fish, with a mouth pointing upwards (like Arowana or Rhamphiodon; far less "dangerous" of course ).

Here are 2 of my 10 little rascals: Bryconops caudomaculatus afa I can determine.
There are so (too?) many tetras with red eyes and a black dot in the tail.......
They have character, even at their small size: one of them is already bullying my Auchenipterus, which is of course NOT good!

[kruseman]

Bryconops caudomaculatus?
Hmmm,your fish don't seem to have the elongated bodyshape C. caudomaculatus has.They also have a shoulderpatch that I don't find on the pictures of the species mentioned in some of my books.

Bryconops reach a total lenght of about 12-15 cm.

Where did you find these fellows? They're nice.

[Marc van Arc]

They came from Ruinemans.
Atm he still has 52 specimens.
Are offered as B. impai.
Not really sure about B. caudomaculatus, but this seemed the best match. I agree that they look somewhat higher than one would expect. And they don't read books either, for they should be friendly at this size and not chase/bite fishes 4 times as long as themselves.

[kruseman]

This might be an interesting article concerning "bycatch" (in German)

http://aquanet.de/Magazine/DetailArticl ... d927d86d7a

[Marc van Arc]

The fish next to the weitzmanni looks a bit like mine.
An LFS in Eindhoven has a whole bunch of look-a-likes, but the owner keeps a shoal in his private tank at home and said his specimens stayed small and lacked both shoulder patch and coloured side line.
So I'm still in doubt to what they are. Bryconops seems unlikely I have to admit, but are there any mean Hemigrammus species at all??

[coelacanth]

I don't think they're Bryconops caudomaculatus either (or at least not the fish I've seen as B. caudomaculatus), body shape looks very wrong, and if they behaving as you say then that doesn't fit either.

[kruseman]

So I'm still in doubt to what they are. Bryconops seems unlikely I have to admit, but are there any mean Hemigrammus species at all??

I saw (what looked like) a Aphyocharax dentatus a while ago amidst some other characins. It was definitely a bycatch but was atacking the other fish constantly by biting in their fins so I asked the shopowner to move it to an other tank wich he did.
It was a mean little fish. In the books it is said to be a peacefull fish however it can go wrong like Brederode said.

[Marc van Arc]

If they keep acting like this they'll go out. There's 10 little buggers bullying everything else, including my Roeboides pair as well as themselves. I had certainly expected the Glass characins to strike back, but apparently 10 buzzing bees are too much for them....