Ancistrus fry in community tank

[summer]

Soon I expect to have Ancistrus fry in my community tank. Working on the principle that most fish will eat anything live that fits into their mouth (right or wrong??), do you think any of these will pose a significant threat to my fry?

swordtails
betta
neon tetra
polka dot loach


I ask for 2 reasons:

1. I think my tetra ate my shrimp - which were bigger than they are never mind mouth size!
2. mister BN has his eggs so well hidden (inside a fake-root ornament down one of the hollow 'legs') that I have no chance of catching the fry to move them. I can't even move the decor as it is very big and won't fit into the fry tank. So I will probably have to leave them until they are big enough to come out.


mister BN is doing a stirling job tho' - the loaches once lived in this decor, but he has evicted them!

[Richard B]

swordtails - yes
neon tetra -no
betta - yes
loach - yes

This is based on assumptions based on personal expriences of various species eating B/N fry.

I don't think the tetra would eat shrimp, very unlikely. The betta or loach might bully or harrass shrimp to death & if the shrimp died of natural causes the loach might eat the corpse.

[summer]

thanks Richard

the shrimp were in the sturisoma tank - the noens were only there as a temp. measure to see if they'd eat the planaria. I guess the shrimp could have been hiding.

Do you know how old the fry would be before they're safe from the other fish?

I have a fry tank (currently housing 120 swordtail fry ready for the LFS) so I could move the BN fry once they are free swimming, but if they'd be safe at this stage I'd prefer to leave them be.

[Richard B]

I've had 15mm fry eaten by a variety of species: silver sharks, arulius barbs & some large killifish & bettas. The fry being safe depends on how big they are ccompared to how big the other tankmates are (as opposed to age as some set-ups allow quicker growth)

[trebor69]

I would worry most about the swords but Im sure everything in there might have a go at the BN fry when theyre at that vulnerable transition from yolk sac to out and about trying to feed.

Personally I would not want a spawn of BN in a community tank. The best thing that could happen is most of them get eaten. Once they are in there they are in there to stay lol. They are very good at hiding in EVERY tiny little nook and cranny and very hard to catch out. (unless your tank is very sparsely decorated)

If you are going to move the BN fry....do it BEFORE they become free swimming....or you will have a terrible time trying to catch them. You can even remove them while still eggs and place them in a fry trap with air bubbles. They will hatch in the trap. You could let them hatch in the community tank and move them as wigglers into a fry trap. (what I would do)

Let them in the fry trap for a week or two until they have absorbed their sac and had a good feed...then let them loose in the fry rearing tank.

[Bas Pels]

I don't think sworttails will harm Ancistrus

Currently I'm having a tank with Sturiosoma (much more sensitive than Ancistrus, especially when newly hatched) Xiphophorus montezumae (a wild swordtail) and 1 Poecilia mexicana, a huge female

However, suddenly the Sturiosoma fry starts staying alife - despite having 8 adult sworttails and 50 or more fry

[MatsP]

I would worry most about the swords but Im sure everything in there might have a go at the BN fry when theyre at that vulnerable transition from yolk sac to out and about trying to feed.

Personally I would not want a spawn of BN in a community tank. The best thing that could happen is most of them get eaten. Once they are in there they are in there to stay lol. They are very good at hiding in EVERY tiny little nook and cranny and very hard to catch out. (unless your tank is very sparsely decorated)

If you are going to move the BN fry....do it BEFORE they become free swimming....or you will have a terrible time trying to catch them. You can even remove them while still eggs and place them in a fry trap with air bubbles. They will hatch in the trap. You could let them hatch in the community tank and move them as wigglers into a fry trap. (what I would do)

Let them in the fry trap for a week or two until they have absorbed their sac and had a good feed...then let them loose in the fry rearing tank.

If the fry still have yolk-sac, they should be in the cave with the male. And I have spawned them many times in community tanks, and some of the fry will survive reasonably well if there aren't too much predation. Further, from what I understand, this wasn't a planned spawning, so it's a question of dealing with the situation as it is... I do agree that they are hard to catch (and quite fragile) when they have just left the cave, so moving them just before is the best time to move them.

--
Mats

[summer]

a mixed bag of replies - my swordtails have about 100 fry every month and they eat them all except maybe 3 or 4 (I allow this to happen or I couldn't cope with so many fry) so I do expect them to try and eat BN fry. My betta is fussier and only seems to eat frozen mosquito larva (I've never seen him or the tetra try to eat swordtail fry). He also likes to be hand fed - a lazy betta methinks

but

the BIG problem

is mister BN's choice of cave

despite having the choice of two 'proper' caves he has chosen the inside leg of a very large fake-root decoration. Much too large for the fry tank - too large to move at all I think, and he and the fry would almost certainly drop out if I try to move it (he is only just visible if you put your head almost right into the tank lol). he is facing vertically downwards on a lsight diagonal

hence my question - I can't move him or the fry until they decide to come out.

of course he has the advantage that none of the other fish can get in there!

here is a similar decoration...

[trebor69]

Well....he did his job then haha. He put them where everyone else would have a hard time getting to them. Hes a good daddy lol.

I guess in this situation youre gunna just have to let things run their course. I bet a good many of them survive if they can find enough food. It hard to say though since you say your swords are already accustomed to eating live fry.

Best of luck catching them out....

[summer]

I've read different accounts of the timing for the fry to come out of the cave, anything from 7 to 14 days - anyone with a time based on experience?

he is a good dad - we put his food under the centre and he's eating quite a bit - and he evicted the loaches lol (they're usually unafraid of anything)

[MatsP]

The time in the cave depends on several factors. The temperature in the tank will affect the speed at which the fry develop - warmer -> quicker development, and the "fear of predators" appear to be identified by the male - so if the male thinks there is something to worry about, he will keep the fry in for a bit longer to give them a better chance. I'd say around 10-12 days is typical.

--
Mats

[jeff@zina.com]

Big fish eat little fish. If you want most of the little fish to survive, you need to separate them from the big fish. In a tank or in nature, the rules are the same.

Jeff

[summer]

day 10 approx and the fry are coming out - they look mouth sized for our 3 big swordtails so we moved the swordtails to the sturisoma tank for a few days - though the fry seem quick enough to keep away from the big fish

I am so pleased the sturisoma fry are still doing well too, we have 21 left. The 2 originals are 6cm now with the others catching up.

[summer]

so far so good, we have around 16 fry and the mister is babysitting again. The other fish haven't bothered the fry at all yay

[MatsP]

so far so good, we have around 16 fry and the mister is babysitting again. The other fish haven't bothered the fry at all yay

You should get a lot more than 16 fry, unless mom is really small. Which makes me think that some fry did "disappear".

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I agree with Mats that 10-12 days is typical of the time it takes for the fry to begin leaving the cave. The other fish don't sound like big threats so if these are first spawns from young breeders you may only begin with a couple dozen fry and a few probably were unable to compete well with the other fish and may have just starved. The numbers will get much large as the breeders get older. Very large females can produce almost 100 fry per spawn. Eventually it isn't long before there can be many fry from successive spawns and once their is a range of sizes from a few consecutive fry I think more fry from each spawn survive. I think this pattern is widely seen among most species of small plecos in tanks with very peaceful tank mates.

I don't breed my L134 with any other fish being present but I allow multiple spawns to accumulate and grow some before handling them. I removed about 90 fry from my L134 tank yesterday to make room for those produced over the rest of the breeding season. I knew I had a lot and this is only a 20 long breeding tank but I didn't realize there were quite that many fry present. That probably explains why the breeders have been taking a break. I breed them in soft water so i had to gradually acclimate them to tap water before I removed them. Now they have had a rest I will begin to make large RO water changes which will get them to resume spawning.

[summer]

both parents are small, the male just about 3" and the female about 2"

I say 'about' 16 as they are quite hard to count (won't stay still) and the tank is heavily planted with a lot of hiding places. Nor can I see the back of the tank. I still don't think there's many more than 20 though.

[Embee]

I know I am resurrecting a very old thread, but I am brand new to catfish in general, and especially breeding them.

Sunday, 1½ week ago I aquired a male ancistrus sp. for my lonely female ancistrus. I put him into the community tank the same day, and in the evening he was guarding eggs in a tube, so I guess they kinda liked each other.

Last night he was still in the tube, guarding fry/eggs - since it has been 10 days now I am hoping it must be fry, but I don't want to spoil anything by shining a light into the tube.

When can I expect the fry to come out, and what are their chances for survival. The tank is populated with a single Pelvicachromis pulcher, 2 Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, 3 loaches and 15 corydoras habrosus.
It's densely planted, several roots, 2 coconut shells, 4 tubes. 250 liter / 66 gallons.

[pleconut]

If he's a first time dad, the males tend to keep the babies in the cave quite a bit longer, this can also be if he considers the environment to be threat. In your case its a community tank, the cichlids and loaches are most likely to pose a threat to the young. So you have a couple of options here, if you are able to get a large breeder box or net to place in the tank, then you can simply place a net over the mouth of the cave, very gently lift dad, fry and cave out, place into the net or box, when dad lets fry out put him back in the tank and the babies when they're big enough not to be eaten. Or you could leave it be if its a very densely planted tank, maybe add some java moss as an extra, you may not get as high a survival rate as the first option, but some fry should survive. Its a fairly big tank, and not heavily stocked, depending on the size of the loaches.
Edit, having considered the previous comments in this thread, the first option appears more appropriate. As feeding and ensuring fry get food, in your size tank, could be very difficult in regards to fry finding food. Also the densely planted tank and locating them all could be difficult, instead of a breeder box a large plastic container can be used floating in the main tank with airstones in change with water from main tank regularly, have an airstone running, as fry need good oxygen supply. They can then go back in the tank when big enough not to be eaten I have read they can be later caught by setting a trap, in a densely planted tank with a empty plastic bottle with food in for them. .

[Embee]

Thanks for the reply.

I am not certain if he is a first time dad, I got him at the age he is, and only way for me to measure that is by his length, which is about 10cm, so a little less than 4"
I must admit, I was quite surprised with regards to the breeding, as I stated, I've had him for 11 days now, 10-10½ of thos he has been lying with his tail sticking out of a cave ;)

3 of the loaches are sewellia lineolata, while the oldest one of those have been lying on top of the cave, I somehow doubt the fry would fit into their mouths, they aren't very big compared to the ancistrus. The Garra flavatra on the other hand, might have a big enough mouth, I just don't know if it would go for the fry.

I have a breeding box with holes, or more accurately, slits in the bottom, to allow water through, I could place an airstone in that, while it floats in the tank, is that what you meant?
I suppose I could lift the cave with dad + fry into the breeding box, and then let him back into the tank after he lets the fry out. Or should I try to just get the cave and fry, and leave dad in tank - not sure if he locks himself in the cave if I try anything with it.

I am probably overthinking this, and will probably have more spawn than I know what to do with from this pair, I just want to look after the fish to the best of my ability - or hopefully a little better than the best of my ability ;)

[pleconut]

Yes I meant placing the airstone in the box but it only needs to be a gentle flow. As there could be too many fry and dad to fit in it, what size is the breeder box. Depending on size the easiest thing is to lift cave, dad and the fry out together, and wait for fry to leave. Another option is if you have a smaller tank thats mature the cave could be transferred there. Also how clearly can you see the cave, if he's been fanning, moving his fins non stop, then he has eggs/babies.

[Embee]

He's still fannning, now it's been 16 days, so I am guessing he feels this is a hostile environment. I opted for not disturbing/not moving anything, and letting nature go it's own way this time. According to what I read, once they start breeding it's hard to stop them again.

I do have a few spare tanks, size 12L (3 gallons) and 45L (12 gallons). The latter one with a HMF filter ready for operation, but my significant other would not approve if more tanks started appearing - at least not if they looked as if they were going to "stay" for a longer period. She was kinda happy when we stopped having 4 tanks in the living room.

If nothing comes of this bunch, I will grab the cave next time they start breeding and probably put dad & cave in the 45L - if I can make it fit underneath the 250L ;)

I have some L471 in the same community tank, and I'll definitely see if I can save some of those, if they should start breeding, but they're still juveniles.

Edit: Forgot to ask, if anyone got a picture of the setup with the breeding box/air stone in the original tank, it would greatly improve my understanding of the best way to make this happen. The breeding box I've got is one that came with a used tank I bought, probably meant for guppies or something like that - as I remember it, it's about 15cm long 8 cm tall and 6 cm deep (6"x3"x2" ish)
And sorry, I missed your answer, I am too new to this site, so I missed the fact that there was another page

[pleconut]

If dad's doing well then I would allow him to continue. I'd only intervene if he kicked eggs out or newly hatched or dead fry from his cave, if he's been going for 16 days, then I'd estimate the fry have hatched absorbed the egg sacs, so personally I'd be tempted now to check with a small flashlight to check as if this is the case, as by now the fry will need to eat, sometimes dads are unwilling to let the fry go, and I heard this can sometimes be to their detriment. As for the 45 litre it would be ok to move dad and the cave in, or even the pair. It may give you experience if you later wanted to breed the L471s. Also to make you aware, although you may be already, BNs can produce potentially upto 200 young every two to three weeks. Because of the limited take space you've got, allowing them to breed in the community tank, as harsh as it sounds, may prevent you becoming overrun with babies. As for the breeder box airstone set u, put an airstone under on in the box a smooth one is better, if in the box (my first batch of eggs kept becoming caught on the airstone airline) just enough to allow the eggs to move very slightly in the box, a net is often recommended but my small fish picked at them through the net. So I used a plastic box, the one you have most likely wouldn't be big enough for dad cave and fry.

[Embee]

Waiting is over - got home from work, and I don't know if dad let one out, or it got away, but I had a single fry sitting on the front glass. About a centimeter in length, no yoke, so you're probably right, dad might be overdoing his protection a bit. Should I gently move him out of the cave, or just wait and see?

Even my fairly big Ram didn't look very closely at the fry, despite being right next to it.

[pleconut]

Congratulations and a centimetre in length, fry should fare ok at this size, and if dad's let one out now, then the rest should follow soon, but if not I shouldn't think it would do any harm to help things along slightly, if it takes to long. Dad may become a bit unsettled though. I'd start putting food in algae waters, veggies, flakes not seriously overfeeding, but ensuring its distribution is throughout the tank and theres enough for fry to find it.

[Embee]

I'll do that, I also added some cucumbers on a fork close to the cave. Thanks a lot, it's always exciting getting fry from a new type of fish

[pleconut]

Good luck with them and if you need any further advice on caring for them post in the thread and ill do what I can to help:-)

[NCE12940]

My limited experience - BN fry with Madagascar and Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish - the Madagascars would eat babies if they saw them swimming but ignored them if they were on the glass, plants or substrate. I've since re-homed the Rainbowfish and now have enough baby BNs to populate the state

[Embee]

Worked out how to show the litlle fella

Big Ram ignoring fry

Fry at the tip of my finger

[pleconut]

Any ideas on how many there are or has dad still got some in the cave?