Expensive little syno cat

[Nyri]

Synodontis was the only thing on the tank... besides the price. $14 for one tiny fish (they're about an inch long right now, I think) and I know that's not a huge price, just for something not labeled further, it seemed like a bit. Can anyone tell me what it is?

[N0body Of The Goat]

I suspect Synodontis sp. hybrid(4), possibly but less likely Synodontis sp. hybrid(5).

But as much as I keep a fair few African riverine fish, there are far better qualified forum members than I at giving IDs.

[bekateen]

I suspect Synodontis sp. hybrid(4), possibly but less likely Synodontis sp. hybrid(5).

I'm no expert either, but I'm also inclined to suspect

Synodontis sp_hybrid(4)

, or possibly a juvenile

Synodontis sp_hybrid(1)

. I don't believe it's

Synodontis sp_hybrid(5)

because that has small spots on the head and I don't see those on the photo provided for this unknown.
Cheers, Eric

[Nyri]

Thank you for the quick replies.
So since it's a hybrid, how do I find out what it is a hybrid of? I mostly just want to know so I can figure out how big it will get, and how likely it will eat other fish.

I got a couple of new pictures of it, too... not sure if they'll help any more than the first one, but I'll stick them on here anyway, since they're a little easier to see him in.

[Richard B]

Syno Hybrid(4) - I'd bank on it reaching 6" body size at least & it might eat tiny fish if it can get them although not a true predatory fish

[Nyri]

Thanks, that's what I needed to know! I can't find much on what the crossing is for hybrid 4, is it actually known, or is someone just pumping random fish out and selling them?

[Viktor Jarikov]

It appears this is a trade secret. A know-how. So no one on our side knows for sure.

As a part of his Ph.D. in ichthyology, Racoll might have figured out this hybrid's maternal species (very hard to get to paternal side). I thought this info would be included in a separate article or in the Cat-eLog but I cannot find it now. He studied DNA of 18 (?) commercially available hybrids.

[Richard B]

http://figshare.com/articles/Investigat ... shes/96149

Racoll's article

[Nyri]

Thank you for the link! Kind of sad it's a hybrid, but I guess it's not the fish's fault...

[Viktor Jarikov]

No, it is not. And yes, man made hybrids make most people experience negative feelings / thoughts here too.

Thanks, Richard. I thought there was a talk of incorporating Rupert's results into PCF somehow. Looks like no.

[racoll]

I thought there was a talk of incorporating Rupert's results into PCF somehow. Looks like no.

We can certainly add the probable maternal parentage for each hybrid to the cat-elog entries, if that's what you mean.

Problem is matching up my bad photos to the correct hybrid, although there are live pictures of the dead synos buried away in the big hybrid thread (Richard took them for me before gave me the fishes).

[jodilynn]

That looks exactly like my "Bullitt" did when he was a youngster, he's a good 6+ inches now, and I saw another, slightly larger one at the LFS (though Bullitt is, er, rounder than that fish ).

Definitely has Eupterus in him, but he is more of a dark tan, not a deep rich chocolate, less and larger spots, just a hint of lighter body bands on him, slight, very faint white edging to the fins, magnificent high, pointed dorsal, my person guess (not scientific) is that he is a cross between a Featherfin and one of the Rift Lake species, like a Cuckoo.

Eats like a horse, shyer now that he is older (he used to eat from my fingers when he was a baby, I have literally had him since he was like under an inch long), only one of my Synos that stays in a cave. He is not aggressive but not a pushover either, though my Featherfin pretty much rules the tank (the Decora is bigger but he doesn't get involved in any squabbles till feeding time, and my Alberti just stays the hell outta everyone's way ). Spectacular in any way? No. Is he more interesting or pretty than either of whatever his parents were? Can't say he is. But he is a very handsome fish, I knew he was a hybrid when I bought him, to me...it was at the big local retailer, and I just felt that they sell these little bitty catfish that grow up it to sizeable creatures and then God know what happens...I felt I was at least rescuing ONE of them and he'd have a great life. And hopefully he does!

[racoll]

Definitely has Eupterus in him ... he is a cross between a Featherfin and one of the Rift Lake species, like a Cuckoo.

Yes, I think you are correct there. I suspect

Synodontis eupterus

is the maternal species too. DNA suggested a species that I did not have a reference for at the time, but was more than probably

Synodontis eupterus

. There is now DNA sequences available for this species online, and yes, I just checked, it is S. eupterus!

[jodilynn]

My biggest question concerning the parentage of these hybrids is how BIG they will get. If you buy one, will it become 6 inches, 8, 10, 12+ ?

I saw one of the Longstorious (sp) hybrids that Petsmat was selling, I know now that there is no way these are purebreds, but a hybrid. There was a sad little one that languished for MONTHS at the local Petsmart, but I was afraid to buy him as I had NO idea what the potential size of this poor little fish actually was!

[jodilynn]

Oh and for the record now as adult Bullitt most closely resembles Hybrid #1.

[Richard B]

I don't think the hybrids sold as Longirostris actually have any longirostris parentage...

Most hybrids for sale are a riverine species (for the numbers of eggs) crossed with a rift lake species (for pattern/desirability) & as such all will reach 6-8" body size from my experience

[bekateen]

...the Longstorious (sp) hybrids that Petsmat was selling...

Wow, your PetSmarts sell Longirostris (or a hybrid they're passing off as Longirostris)? I've never seen anything like them at our PetSmart stores. Around here, they only carry upside-down cats and featherfin squeakers.

Cheers, Eric

[Viktor Jarikov]

I thought there was a talk of incorporating Rupert's results into PCF somehow. Looks like no.

We can certainly add the probable maternal parentage for each hybrid to the cat-elog entries, if that's what you mean.

Problem is matching up my bad photos to the correct hybrid, although there are live pictures of the dead synos buried away in the big hybrid thread (Richard took them for me before gave me the fishes).

If my memory serves, yes, that was the consensus. Perhaps, this was never formally put "in line" or on anyone's plate.

I suspect no one among experts would desire much to improve the syno hybrid Cat-eLog department but then it would cut down on a significant number of the repetitive questions re syno IDs, parentage, sizes, etc. or at least enable us to simply point out the info to an inquirer. You, Rupert, for one, certainly have 100 more important things to do while in Brazil

[Jools]

If I've missed something let me know (email?) always happy to widen the exposure of Rupert's work.

Jools

[jodilynn]

Jools, that would be awesome but obviously a tremendous undertaking. But for those of us that have hybrids (by choice or by accident) it would answer SO many questions!

[jodilynn]

...the Longstorious (sp) hybrids that Petsmat was selling...

Wow, your PetSmarts sell Longirostris (or a hybrid they're passing off as Longirostris)? I've never seen anything like them at our PetSmart stores. Around here, they only carry upside-down cats and featherfin squeakers.

Cheers, Eric

It looked exactly like

Synodontis sp_hybrid(8)

.

Again, if I could have know the parentage I would have bought the poor little guy. Still don't know what happened to it, hopefully it went to a good home ...

[bekateen]

I realize that I spend a lot of time talking poorly of the fish departments in the large U.S. chain pet stores (particularly, Petco and PetSmart because they are in my area). And much of it is deserved, at least based on my experiences at these stores. As you're pointing out, one of the major problems with these chain stores is that their staff are usually not well-educated about the fish (their max size, needs, etc.), and their sole job is to sell the fish with little regard to how well prepared the new owners will be to take care of these fish (like your Syno hybrid) when they get the fish home.

But I must admit, when I shop at a chain store for live fish, I prefer to shop at PetSmart over Petco. At least in my region, the PetSmarts I visit do a much better job maintaining the health of their fishes than do the Petco stores, and I am often delightfully surprised by the bigger selection of what I consider "unusual" fish at PetSmart stores than at Petco stores. Last year, my PetSmarts were selling

Apistogramma agassizii

(they were mislabeled with photos of

Apistogramma cacatuoides

, but that's another story), which is a fish that only comes into my LFS when it is a special order! My nearby PetSmarts also carry

Iriatherina werneri

,

Ctenopoma acutirostre

,

Microglanis iheringi

and

Horabagrus brachysoma

, plus

Tropheus moorii

- some of these aren't even available at most of my LFS.

In the end, I can criticize these chain stores all I want for their shortcomings, but when they sell fish that are less common in the trade, my feeling is that they open up the mystery and fun of the aquarium hobby to people who aren't familiar with these oddities, and I think this can encourage people to get more involved in the hobby - and that's a good thing... Now if we can just get them to improve their attention to preparing customers to take care of these beautiful fishes.

[Viktor Jarikov]

If I've missed something let me know (email?) always happy to widen the exposure of Rupert's work.

As Rupert said, the work lies in matching up the hybrids he studied to those in Cat-eLog. The rest appears to be just typing. Rupert mentioned Richard B could take on it. So I volunteer Richard B to the front lines again. Easy for me! I am joking, of course, but not being an expert in synos by any stretch, I'm not sure what I can take upon myself.

[Jools]

Well, I can add the images or text too, but best if Rupert or Richard emails that to me and I will add it to the queue(s)!

Cheers,

Jools

[kvnbyl]

there were quite a number of Petsmarts selling hybrids as Longirostris, I am the proud owner of 2. I should have known better. the chances that they would have a line on someone as infrequently seen as Longirostris were minimal but there is one born every minute as they say, even one who should have had more sense.

[jodilynn]

Eric, I totally agree with your above post. I have bought a few fish from Petco, but of all my fish from all the different places I go, these fish were the weakest and seem to be the least healthy. I lost one of the tiny Honey Sun Gouramis (I swear...the one barely eats and the other like, never ate, and I tried EVERYTHING) and the platy I got there is not doing well. Of course I had to TELL the idiot kid working in the fish dept. what a platy WAS. The tanks always seem to be crawling with Ich as well.

Petsmart I will shop at. The kid in the fish dept. yesterday was spot on about the

Microglanis iheringi

that my son wanted. Knew what it ate, water requirements, feeding requirements, temperament, everything! So I felt ok getting the fish. And he's really cool so I'm glad I did! And you are right, they do get some unusual fish in. BUT I have a problem with the fact they don't sell fish that are labeled correctly, the

Corydoras julii

are always apparently

Corydoras trilineatus

,and again don't get me started on the

Synodontis longirostris

b.s. , you cannot tell me that after what, 5+ years (based on the one thread in the African Forum) that Petsmart hasn't figured out that those fish are HYBRIDS! :angry-screaming:

[bekateen]

BUT I have a problem with the fact they don't sell fish that are labeled correctly, the

Corydoras julii

are always apparently

Corydoras trilineatus

Yes, and I'm sure that's not out of ignorance, but it's a combination of two things: 1) the local employees may not have the power or authority to change the name on the tag (at my PetSmart, I pointed out the mislabeled photograph of Apistogramma agassizii, and the employee's response was, "This is the photo we received, so it is the photo we have to display."), and 2) it's a marketing ploy to sell more fish to novices. Very few novices have heard of trilineatus (and even some experienced fish keepers don't know the difference), but almost everyone who can name one Cory knows julii. So when they come to buy a Cory, what will they ask for?

Cheers, Eric