What's the etymology of "Siluriformes"?

Post by **Dinyar** » 26 Jan 2003, 21:12

I gather that the "Silurian Period" (420 MA) was named by Sir Roderick Murchison in 1835 after the "Silures", a tribe that lived in Wales during the Roman period.

I presume "Siluriformes" is named after the "Silurian" period. Is that correct? If so, why? Did the order originate in the Silurian? (What is the earliest known fossil clearly identified as a Siluriform?)

Thanks,
Dinyar

Post by **Silurus** » 26 Jan 2003, 21:35

The earliest use of the term "Siluriformes" (or its derivative) was by Cuvier (1817) who coined the term "Siluroides" for all catfishes. The term was probably derived from Silurus, which is generally acknowledged as the first catfish ever named in the Linnean system. I'm not sure why Linnaeus named it as such (maybe the catfish reminded him of a bearded Welshman ?

. It is interesting to note that the name for the European catfish is the wels (again a reference to the Silures ?)
Anyway, the earliest fossil catfish clearly recognizable as such is the North American Hypsidoris from the Cretaceous (reconstructions show it to look very much like an ictalurid or a bagrid in life). There are some fragments identified as catfishes possibly occurring in earlier deposits, but the fossil record is really too fragmentary to tell.

Post by **Dinyar** » 26 Jan 2003, 21:40

Hmm... Silurus and wels... both meaning Welsh? (Now Scottish I could maybe understand

. Very interesting...

Chrysichthys · Post by **Chrysichthys** » 12 Mar 2003, 15:31

We do like our catfish here in Wales and will sometimes even go to England to get them

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 14 Mar 2003, 11:38

Dinyar wrote:Hmm... Silurus and wels... both meaning Welsh? (Now Scottish I could maybe understand . Very interesting...

I have long pondered this link I _think_ it must be coincidence.

What we really then want to know is the etymology of Silurus?

Jools

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 14 Mar 2003, 17:00

As I was discussing with Rusty and Silurus last night, I actually read this recently, and now I can't remember exactly where!
It comes from a French tribe/region, and I assume this is because the type specimen originated from there. As soon as I put my hands on the actual text I will let people know.
Pete

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Mar 2003, 18:53

The Silure of Wales and France are the same thing. They were originally a Gaulish tribe and fled to Britain when Julius Caesar invaded, carrying their tribal names with them. Some of the other tribes that left with them were the Parisii, Dumnonii, Damnonii and Cantii. While others that stayed behind, but fled to the mountains were the Namnatae, Vennatii, Remi and Belgae.
I don't see how this is related to the type locality of Silurus glanis (Orient, less frequently in European lakes), though, especially since the species is not native to Gaul (modern day Brittany).

marimochan96 · Post by **marimochan96** » 18 Feb 2017, 05:20

Do you have sources/references?

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 18 Feb 2017, 07:49

Dinyar wrote: ↑26 Jan 2003, 21:40 Hmm... Silurus and wels... both meaning Welsh? (Now Scottish I could maybe understand . Very interesting...

While Wels is the German name for catfish, as far as I know, other European languages have other names. In Dutch it is "meerval". A 'meer' is a lake, and a 'val' is a trap, but 'val' can also refer to verb, to fall. Silurus obviously live in lakes, and stories are told about children eaten by them.

In Spanish it is bagre, in Italian pesca gatto - which might refer to cats, again - just as French, poisson-chat. But in Danish it is malle

But - never a reference to Wales in these languages. Incidentally, Silurus is not found in Wales

What's the etymology of "Siluriformes"?

What's the etymology of "Siluriformes"?

Re: What's the etymology of "Siluriformes"?