The "Jools' new fishroom post"

[Jools]

I wonder if the waste water could be recycled by running it through carbon and a veggie filter to remove nitrates and toxins?

I'm going to run a waste pipe right out into the garden and just let it feed the plants with all the stuff they like.

Jools

[Jools]

The biggest downfall in my fish house is ventilation verses heating, if i open the vents wide enough to release all the moisture from the room then my heater almost doubles its on time to compensate, if i close the vents up to save heat then i get beads of water forming on the ceiling and running down the walls.

CFC,

That's been a problem for me before too. To at least attempt to address the issue, the walls are double insulated and there are no windows in the room. The condensation forms because (as I understand it) the difference in temperature between the cold wall and the warmer moist air. If I can stop the walls and ceiling getting so cold especially over night when the sun is not warming them (and there is no heat loss via a window) then I think I will at least reduce the problem.

Jools

[Bas Pels]

my fishroom does not have any condensatioon on insulated walls, despice the high humidity

I don't heat it, but the room is as full of tanks as I could manage, all with pumps and pampes. This energy is all turned into heat, which remains in the room due to the insulation.

However, it is too well insulated to provide oxygen for the fishes. Therevore I mechanically pump air from my adjourning livingroom (thus warm)into 9 of the tanks (the room contains 15 tanks, I do not air the smallest 4 tanks)

This goes perfect for the fishes, but now a lot of moist air comes out of the room - I think I will have to install another vent to withdraw moist air

[CFC]

I started by running all my waste water straight onto the garden, but after a few weeks i had the beginings of a flooded grassland biotope forming in the garden so i had to install a run of 40mm waste pipe along the garden fence and into the drain.

My biggest problem is that my fish house is an entirely seperate building that is exposed on all 4 sides but prehaps an outerlayer of insulation around the buidling and then clad over might solve my condensation issue.
It probably doesnt help having a 48 square foot tank in the room either.

[Jools]

That's really useful, I'll need to check with the run off however I might make it close to some trees that don't appear to have a limit to the amount of water they can suck up.

The whole garden is just a shade away from a swamp at the best of times and it's only all the trees that dry it out I think.

Jools

----------------
Listening to: Cher - Walking In Memphis
via FoxyTunes

[grokefish]

The main problem with my last attempt at a fish room was lack of planning and rushing the job, which from what I see here is probably not a lack of planning or a rushed job.
My main reason for building it in the first place was to get the majority of the tanks out of the main 'living ' parts of the house for two reasons
1. changing the massive amounts of water was ruining the house however careful I was.
2. to get all the tanks in one place with it's own drainage water supply and a floor surface that I could chuck water wherever I wanted

three. three reasons
1. changing the massive amounts of water was ruining the house however careful I was.
2. to get all the tanks in one place with it's own drainage water supply and a floor surface that I could chuck water wherever I wanted
3. as I am away working alot Kath has to do the majority of the maintenance which to be honest she was getting really pissed off with (she has her own fish tank with a royal panaque to look after and as he is quite big now he takes a lot of looking after I have never seen a fish sht so much)and I wanted it to be as easy as possible for her.

four reasons
1. changing the massive amounts blah blah

4. to make it as economically as I could both in price of build (which came in at about £500) and running costs.

Due to the lack of planning and in fact common sense it was a failure in these respects:

Too hot in the summer
Too cold in the winter
Unbelivable amounts of condensation, it runs off the roof

It was too hot in the summer because I really went to town on the insulation and draught proofing which is one of the reasons for the condensation.
It is also built in a real suntrap area of my property south facing and right out of the wind.
I built it there for these very reasons, I wanted to cut down on lighting costs so I used an insulating polycarbonate roof, it got up to 40 degrees c in my biggest tank opening the doors and windows did nothing I lost a breeding project that was very special for me as I had been working on it for years (spotted doras ) and I was sure that I was going to crack it this year.
The only reason I didn't loose everything was Kath did 50% water changes in all the tanks everyday till I got back for which I will be eternally gratefull.
Anyway this insulated roof turned out to be a crock.
It is not useless as it keeps the room about 10 degrees c above the outside temperature, my pond was frozen down to 6 inches the other morning and it was 11 degrees in my abandoned fish room but to keep it at the required temperatures was taking a lot of lecky and so failed in that respect because in my living room which is super insulated being half underground my central heating keeps that room at a constant 25 with very little use of the gas.
The way to get it to work well as I have found with a little experiment in my shed, which is appx the same size as this fish room is to have an outer layer on the roof, completely sealed, and a lower layer under the roof beams again totally sealed. This gives a good insulation with natural sunlight to boot, but I am waiting for the summer to see how hot it gets in there, I think I will be able to bake cakes in there in then.
I think that I could cure the three bears syndrome that is going on in there with some more planning and thought but the condensation is a very real problem which I am going to solve without using lecky but it is going to take alot of head scratching.
Also because of the angle of the sun I could see nothing but reflections in all the tanks until the sun left and then for obvious reasons I could see nothing, only at dawn was it any good.
I painted the walls white which reflected both heat and light back into the room making the overheating worse and the reflections, I think I will get it all off again and maybe the walls will act as sort of storage heaters, but this will be just an experiment as the room is abandoned as a fish room now, but makes a very fine sun room which is very a la mode
and I am building a new one in the old kitchen in the traditional way, real roof, gas heated, electric lighting etc.
Sorry to waffle but that is it, not very much of a summary really.

Summary:-
Too hot
Too cold
To bright
Condensation of doom (which did not matter to the room as I had built it to be wet but wasn't much fun to be in) it was like rain in there, I'm not joking.
Do not buildd it anything like I did, seriously

Matt

[Shane]

I have been through five fishrooms due to my frequency of moves. Here are my tips:

1) Condensation: I have never had condensation problems. I think there may be a couple of reasons for this;
a) If heating is required heat the fishroom and not the individual tanks. That way the heat is drying the room versus heating tank water that turns to gaseous form in a cooler room.
b) Have tight fitting glass/plexi covers on every tank.
c) Keep a fan on low breeze. My current fishroom has a three speed ceiling fan. Keeps condensation to nothing and helps cool the room in the hottest summer months. All of my future fishrooms will have a ceiling fan. It also helps equalize the temp throughout the room.

There is a drawback to heating/cooling the room and that is that you lose temp control over each individual tank. Tanks on lower racks will be cooler and the highest tanks warmer which is fine for most of what we all keep. This is only an issue if you are keeping a mix of temperate and tropical fishes. The other massive advantage... space heater, one electric outlet used; 20 aquarium heaters... 20 outlets used

I have had the opposite experience with regard to natural light. I can never get enough. Not sure how I can not get enough in Africa and Matt gets too much ? Ideally, I would install lots of sunlights and big windows and basically do away with artificial light. I realize you do not get enough daylight in Bathgate to do this, but every little bit of sunlight helps. The fish and plants always look best when they get some real light.

-Shane

[Jools]

Shane,

I like the idea of a ceiling fan, however in all your fishrooms, what was the coldest it regularly got outside? Maybe this is also a factor?

Sadly I won't have any natural light hitting any of the tanks except the big show tank. There's just too much space and heat lost to windows. I agree with condensation trays, if I take the condensation trays off the two big tanks I have, the room goes swampy overnight.

I don't think heat in the summer will be too much of a problem again because no windows and also becuase of the position of the room (purposefully it's the one most protected from sunlight on the whole property).

Thanks for the posts guys, it is really useful. Found some nice water storage units which I think I am going to use for the rainwater and tapwater. They can sit up high in the room.

Cheers,

Jools

[Shane]

I like the idea of a ceiling fan, however in all your fishrooms, what was the coldest it regularly got outside? Maybe this is also a factor?

Jools,
Not as cold as it gets where you are, but it gets very cold here (down to 39F) for the toughest few weeks of winter. We all know what causes condensation. Basically, if the tanks are warmer than the room they will evaporate. Once the water cools to room temp it turns back to its liquid state and makes condensation. A fishroom will always be somewhat humid, but heating the room helps keep things much dryer since the air and tanks are the same temp.
You will really appreciate the ceiling fan. I recommend one with multiple speeds.
-Shane

[Coryman]

Jools,

Great to see the fish room project has got under way, a lot of hard work to come, but I am sure it will all be worth it once it is complete.

Over several fish houses I have developed one or two techniques to combat condensation, water supplies and maximise heat distribution.

Because all of my fish houses have been relatively small, space has always been a premium. So for water collection and storage I have two 45 gallon water butts outside, each one feeds into under tank vats the fish house via ball valves. This allows the incoming water to both ages and adjust to the internal temperature inside the FH. To compensate for condensation, which usually increases when water changing, I have installed an extractor fan high up at one end of the FH. This has a timer, which switches the fan on for 5 minutes in every 15. There are units available that are controlled by the humidity level. Both methods do remove a little heat but I think that is out weighed by the benefit the fewer problems that can be caused by high humidity.

Having a couple of circulating fans is definitely a good move, as well as helping to keep humidity levels down, they also help to even out the temperature throughout the room, Especially if you intend to have celling mounted light units, these generate quite a bit of heat, not only from the choke units, but from the light tubes themselves. If the fans are directed across the lights and downwards, this will definitely help to lessen the load on the room heater.

The other benefit of good air movement in the room is that it will drastically reduce the development of fungus and mould especially if your tank staging is going to be constructed from wood.

Ian

[Jools]

Another point on the condensation thing is that I can push or pull air from the house via a grille in the door (if required).

OK, now two things I need to work on. Floor and wall coverings. I am currently going to go for a stone tiled floor - but one that is non-slip - probably something you might use in a bathroom although cost my require that I go for something else.

What about the walls? I feel I need more than just bathroom gloss paint to provide a water seal. I could use silicone sealed plastic boards or just tile the whole thing.

Jools

[Bas Pels]

If you would want it to be water tight, you should use pond coatings, for instance epoxy coating.

The stuff requires 15-25 degrees centigrades, and I had to put 3 layers in my ponds, with 4 hrs between.

Indoors this could quite easily be done, and the amount of square meters (sq feet if yopu like) will not be a problem - it works almost as easily as paint

Regarding the costs - I came down to 15 euro a square meter, thus almost 10 pounds. Pigment can be added if required (I used black)

[grokefish]

I put a raised decking in mine and as the concrete floor sloped down to two drains this was great as I could literally just syphon the water onto the floor and off it went to the drain (if I was feeling lazy) or into a wate pipe fixed to one side of the room that went directly to one of the drains.
Matt

[AndrewC]

Too hot in the summer, Too cold in the winter.
Unbelivable amounts of condensation, it runs off the roof

The way to get it to work well as I have found with a little experiment in my shed, which is appx the same size as this fish room is to have an outer layer on the roof, completely sealed, and a lower layer under the roof beams again totally sealed. This gives a good insulation with natural sunlight to boot, but I am waiting for the summer to see how hot it gets in there, I think I will be able to bake cakes in there in then.
Matt

I built a well insultated single skin hut like Matt and have the same problems.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... highlight=
I thought having an air gap between the insulation and the outside cladding would help a lot, but it didn't.
If i could do it again, i would use a cavity wall and also build the roof using roof trusses, which will give you a decent air space in the ceiling.

I found an extractor fan running constantly didn't help much, but what i found helped me the best, was a decent rate dehumidifer connected to a constant drain.
Still have condensation marks on the bottom of the walls, but nowhere near as bad as last winter.

As your fish room is in your house, try to conect your drainage to your sewer drain, somehow, you'll have no problems then.
Don't use a run off drain if you will be draining a lot of water during water changes, because your garden will turn into a big puddle.
I used to have a soak away in the field behind my hut for the waste water from my hut, but that failed miserably as it was filling up after draining a few tanks and that was in the summer.
So i ended up running the sink waste straight into the field behind the hut, which is great, and i am lucky it is a field for cows grazing behind my hut, as i have now formed a marsh in the field right behind my hut with all water i have drained.

Have you thought about putting a sink into your room and using a python to drain the water from your tanks, pythons are pretty basic tools, but work great.

[snowball]

If you can store fish-ready water in the roof or otherwise above the tanks (either collected rain or filled from the mains), it will mean you don't need to use any pumps when refilling tanks.

I know it's not always possible, but it's always good to use gravity in place of expending energy if the situation allows.

[Jools]

Well, the awful weather has put a real "dampener" on things and the project is about 3 weeks behind. However, we do have the bones of a new roof...



Jools

[Kostas]

Congratulations Jools!!! You seem to be building a great fishroom
Looking forward to see it developing!!!Take your time with the planning and everything...

Btw,great topic,full of usefull info for correctly planning a fishroom!

[grokefish]

Yes, a very good contrast to my thread on the matter, I think they should run parallel in an article called: how to build a fish room, and how to make an arse of it.
Matt

[Jools]

Well, it's the wettest January on record since 1913. We had a nine room house, we now have two rooms downstairs that are warm and don't have water variously dripping or pissing into them when it rains. The gale force winds mean that the builders can't work on some parts of the roof and other parts they have to harness themselves onto the structure at times. The new roof is now two weeks behind schedule. Clare is spending the weekends at her parents and I am spending a lot of time emptying buckets of water. There is one room left in the house which has not been damaged or altered (or had a roof or wall removed) so far.

For a laugh a few days ago I measured all the water I collected from the leaks. It was 312 litres in one day (7am - 9pm).

So, I don't have much to report on the actual fishroom, this nonsense with leaks should be at an end next week and then I can start thinking about the fun stuff again.

Jools

[Shane]

Maybe we should just meet in London when I come up... Drumcross will rise from the floods.
-Shane

[WhitePine]

any new pictures on the fish room? I am thinking of painting my fish room with Exterior paint... as it is designed to weather seal the outside of a house and should work great to seal the inside. You can buy really expensive epoxy paints for very moist environments too. Just talk to your local paint supply house.

[andrewcoxon]

Hi guys,

im in the process of setting up my fish room and i was wondering if anyone has ever considered using a dehumidifier to stop dampness? iv read through this thread and no-one seems to mention it?

cheers,

andrew

[ElTofi]

Hi everybody.

I've just discovered this topic and I thought I could give you some "tested for you" ideas. I had the same questionning as Jools 3 years ago, when we built our house. From the beginning it was planned to have a fish-room in the underground. I made a serie of pictures during the building and the installation of the tanks. Actually, it runs from February 2006, with a total of 4 tanks (160 / 300 / 375 / 1600 litres) and several growing, testing, planted, and so on smaller tanks...

If you agree, I could place a few pictures of "my" tricks to avoid damping, smellings and such "usual" problems, linked to a fish-room installation.

Anyway, nice topic...

[vriesea]

Eltofi:

I would love to see your pictures and your work to head off the "usual" problems. I have a room that I hope will eventually become a fish room. Would like to see your approach.

"A picture is worth a thousand words" - Napoleon

Happy hobbying,
Vriesea

[ElTofi]

Hello all,

I've just lost the whole text I had been writing for the last 20 minutes just because I forgot to save it... I'm mad... never mind, here is a shorter version...

Being synthetic :
- fishroom of 25 m2
- 3 air vents : 2 are simply "holes" in the upper part of the right and of the left walls, the third is a window
- 5 tanks : 120 l. Hospital, 160 l Chaetostoma sp L402, 300 l Hypancistrus sp L66, 375 l Hemiancistrus sp L128, 1600 l "Xingu suckermouths & Retroculus"
- 2 nurseries (54 l) : actually Hypancistrus L66 + Pseudacanthicus sp L320 growing
- all tanks open with low lighting
- 1 water evacuation in the middle of the room, on the floor
- the room is not heated, but is in the underground of the house

Positives points :
- never had "damping" or smells, or any problem linked to humidity although the 12 liters a day of evaporation (for the big tank only)
- I can have different temperatures in every tank

Negatives points :
- in winter, the natural venting increases sensibily the electricity note (up to € 1.30 per day), due to heating particularly.

Project :
- a rain water collector, directly from the roof, through a PVC drain pipe which comes in the fishroom by one of the air vent. Problem : how to ensure the water quality ?

[ElTofi]

here you can see the waste water evacuation and the "nursery shelf", with above it the second air vent. Depending on the wind ouside, the air flow is from left to right or the opposite.

Bonus (for me and whom may be interessted) : juveniles of L320 and L66 in the same nursery

[andywoolloo]

what size is that tank on the last pic in the post right before the one above this one? In gallons?

((Drool))

[ElTofi]

Hi Andywoolloo,

the tank is a 1600 liters, so around 420 US gallons and 350 UK gallons. It's a 320x70x70 cm (around 126x28x28 inches).

I thought this was a huge tank... till I discover a member of the Lausanne Club (Switzerland) who drives a 4000 liters (1056 US gallons : built in concrete and glass) with Osphronemus goramy...

you can always find someone more crazy than you are

[andywoolloo]

126x28x28 420 us gals

wow.. incredible..u are so lucky.

[Jools]

It's been a long time since I last posted, so here is an update on progress.

Here I am draining one of the larger tanks so that I can knock down the wall behind it.



Temporary tank in the new hall which is being filled with water from the old tank



Draining, draining, draining...



Tank now moved and wall removed.



Standing in new living room looking into fishroom through cut out for the big display tank.



2 months to go!

Jools