spawning cave for foot long blue eyes

[Jake Adams]

I have a nice healthy pair of blue eye plecos, they seemingly get along and have a myriad of features which are different between them. They have all the water flow, wood and sweet potato they could ever want but I'd like to provide them with a suitable spawning place. What do you think should be provided for them to spawn in?

[MatsP]

As discussed here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=35838
no one really knows how these fish spawn.

It would appear that they spawn "in small rivers" when the water levels are high. I'm not sure if ANYONE knows if how/where they guard their eggs - and it may be hard to simulate the fish swimming up a river too...

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Mats

[Richard B]

...& clown loaches could make efficient egg stealers....

[Jake Adams]

As discussed here:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=35838
no one really knows how these fish spawn.

It would appear that they spawn "in small rivers" when the water levels are high. I'm not sure if ANYONE knows if how/where they guard their eggs - and it may be hard to simulate the fish swimming up a river too...

I have been following that thread, and I am aware that in the wild, the fish are stimulated to breed by migration. I actually have a seasonality to my water changes, with fewer colder water changes in winter and more frequent and less cold water changes in summer. Furthermore, I do have the equipment necessary to turn their aquarium into a raging rapid. I believe that healthy mature adult fish will find a way to breed once they are conditioned and provided I actually have a male and a female. Only time will tell, but I am just fishing for suggestions on what to give them if they do decide to spawn.

[Jake Adams]

...& clown loaches could make efficient egg stealers....

The little gaggle of clown loaches is only in the tank temporarily to lower the snail population, and they are scheduled for removal in the very near future.

[MatsP]

Yes, and my point wasn't to put you off, just that the answer to your question is pretty close to "Nobody seems to know exactly how these fish breed".

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Mats

[Jake Adams]

Here is a pic of the "pair" - their body color looks different because I have narrow angle LEDs in the front that are bluer than in the back.

[Richard B]

...& clown loaches could make efficient egg stealers....

The little gaggle of clown loaches is only in the tank temporarily to lower the snail population, and they are scheduled for removal in the very near future.

Cool!

If nothing you try works over a year long priod, the following year, you might wanna try a drop in pH coupled with minimal water movement, the addition of loads of oak/beech leaves and perhaps a giant slab of wood (that the fish can rest on), propped up at an angle so it creats a dark area. It might be hard to find such a piece but you should have plenty of time to find one! I suggest a year as seasonal atmospheric pressures over the year can't really be replicated and may be influential.

[Jools]

Are the plecos out quite a lot? You could start by putting an appropriately sized cave in there. If the male takes refuge, then it's a potential indicator. How do you know they are a pair?

Cheers,

Jools

[Shane]

I have talked to several people that have tried to keep a pair or group of large specimens together and it always ends badly. I would say that the fact yours are as mature as they are and are not killing each other is a promising start.
I agree with Jools and would recommend trying two caves. One of stone and one of wood that the male (supposing they are a pair) can chew on and hollow out a bit himself. While they are several factors involved when spawning loricariids, one thing we do know is that very, very few of them will spawn unless provided with a suitable spawning site.
-Shane

[Jake Adams]

While they are several factors involved when spawning loricariids, one thing we do know is that very, very few of them will spawn unless provided with a suitable spawning site.

That is precisely the purpose of this thread, hence the title, and you are pointing out the obvious. Of course they need some kind of cave if I want them to spawn, but how do you make a cave for a pair of foot long panaques? I'd need something at least the size of a shoebox for them both to fit inside. Do I make a slate box about that big? Should I build a box out of wood? At the present I am leaning towards splitting a big ass log, and walling it with a couple other thick branches.

At least I know exactly where I'll put it because my "male" kind of hangs out in one particular spot while the "female" perches herself just about anywhere in the tank.

[Jools]

Of course they need some kind of cave if I want them to spawn

I wasn't aware that they'd been documented spawning in a cave? I still think they might spawn like Chaetostoma or perhaps over a depression. If I was built like a Panaque, I'd find that a lot easier than squeezing into a cave like all the flatter plecos. If it were me, I'd experiment in drilling holes into wood that would take a clutch of eggs that the Panaque could sit over. I would also try a cave though, fired dark clay ought to do it. FWIW, my Panaque(Panaqolus) spawned in round rather than square caves with a tapered end.

For all we know, it might be a coconut husk (as opposed to a shell) or a palm leaf that does it.

Jools

[ElTofi]

Breeding the L25, my alpha male was 42 cm (1.4 foot ?)and I had some cave like on this picture :



I ordered them to a fishhobbyist who was also a potter (not like Harry, just like "pottery")...

they were 50 cm long, 15 cm large and 10 cm high, triangled shaped, in terracota...

that did a very good and efficient spawning cave...

[MatsP]

Jools makes sort of the same point I was trying to make: We don't know how these fish spawn, and whether they use caves or something else.

However, if you want to make a cave, here's some ideas:
Slate for "natural stone flooring" can be made into a cave quite easily - and is often available in decent size pieces, like 2ft x 2ft or so.

For a wood cave, you can either get a BIG drill-bit, but it can be quite hard work, or use a wood-turning lathe. Or, as you suggest, split a chunky piece. I'd then cut out a couple of slots, similar to what is done in the stones here, and screw the back together with stainless steel wood screws [pilot drilled]. You can perhaps use a circular saw, chisels or if you have a router, that would be the perfect too.

--
Mats

[Jake Adams]

There we go, that's the kind of information I was fishing for you guys. I know that large Panaques have never been spawned in captivity and we know nothing, so I was using the word 'cave' loosely for whatever kind of spawning substrate they actually need.

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Om no expert in panaques but looking at the images I would say that the one in the front is female and the one in the back is male!? Looking at their heads!

Cristoffer

[Mike_Noren]

For the wood cave I'd simply build a box using hardwood planks. I doubt the blue eye cares that the cave is square.

If you're good with a chainsaw a more natural-looking solution would be to hollow out a log.

You'll need to weigh them down with hefty rocks, of course.

[Birger]

If you're good with a chainsaw a more natural-looking solution would be to hollow out a log.

I actually do this sort of thing with a chainsaw for a living and definately do not reccommend doing this action unless you have spent many hours with one in hand, I would never let a rookie helper do this unless I could see they are really comfortable with a saw, doing a plunge cut like this is usually accompanied with many fine words usually kept in a special part of the dictionary .

What would also work though is getting about a 12-13 inch ( measure the fish and make some calculations this may need to be different) diameter dry log split in half, hollow out a portion which could be laid/attached on another peice of wood and used like a traditional cave...the other half could be hollowed out slightly or even erratically with some depresions and stood on end or leaned agnst the side or in the current somehow. Of course there would have to be some technicalities to be dealt with such as keeping it submerged.
Shouldn,t be too hard to find someone that could do this with a chainsaw in Colorado or the use of the chainsaw in this case would not be near as tricky. Aso the oil used in the saw often soaks into the wood some but that could be dealt with as well by using a substitute that is less toxic. I could whip the above pieces up in about a half hour to an hour. Could also be hollowed out with one of those wheels often used by carvers on a grinder. It can also be tuned up with a chisel if needed.

Birger

[Shane]

That is precisely the purpose of this thread, hence the title, and you are pointing out the obvious. Of course they need some kind of cave if I want them to spawn, but how do you make a cave for a pair of foot long panaques?

In nearly ten years as a moderator here, that has to be about the rudest response I have received from someone asking for help.

I am pretty sure I can say with confidence that I am the only person replying to your thread that has actually spent years collecting in the waters where these fish are found in Colombia. I have also published several articles on this species in the US and European literature. I would love to see someone succeeed in spawning this fish in captivity. You have an uphill journey if you are to be that person. I would recommend against making it even more difficult by acting obnoxious towards those trying to help you.

-Shane

[Jake Adams]

In nearly ten years as a moderator here, that has to be about the rudest response I have received from someone asking for help.

OH NOES! Less then 20 posts and I'm already making trouble. I swear I didn't mean to come across that way and I am extremely grateful for the feedback I have already received from you Shane, Jools, MatsP and everyone else. I carved up a log this morning based on everyone's input and will post pics soon.

[Shane]

No worries Jake. We'll chalk it up to the hazards of faceless communications and press on with getting those fish to spawn.
-Shane

[Jake Adams]

SO I went out and picked a log that was splitting in a favorable way, then cut off the piece of appropriate length

Measured the diameter, precisely what I was aiming for

[Jake Adams]

The log split precisely how I was hoping

The center piece came out easily giving me a nice starting point to work with

[Jake Adams]

After working it for a while with a hatchet and a butter knife I widened the center cavity

This is the 'far end' of the cave, which will be a little taller since i plan on sandwiching something in between the sides

[Jake Adams]

My man-sized arm easily fits in and through the entire log, big enough for one fish, but nor sure about both

Now the two halves of the log-cave are jammed in a bucket and will be soaking in water for a while before i add it to the tank

[Shane]

Great job! This is just what I was thinking might work. My only further recomendation would be to close one end off to form a cave-like structure. I have no proof that this would be the answer, but most "fat" loricariids seem to like a closed end spawning structure (as compared to "flat" loricariids like Hemiloricaria that prefer on open ended structure).

There are many options, but one you might consider would be "reforming" the two log halves using plastic zip ties.
-Shane

[MatsP]

Great job! This is just what I was thinking might work. My only further recomendation would be to close one end off to form a cave-like structure. I have no proof that this would be the answer, but most "fat" loricariids seem to like a closed end spawning structure (as compared to "flat" loricariids like Hemiloricaria that prefer on open ended structure).

I think you could use a "slice" (about 1" or so) of the piece that came out of the center to cover the end of the hollow.

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Mats

[ElTofi]

great job ! I could possibly use the same trick for my panaques...

just a question on the wood specie you used : is it a conifer ? the point is not to use a resinous specie... I noted a few years ago, that even well dried, this kind of wood releases resins or toxic component into the water...

[rob rensen]

has no one ever wondered why there's never been found big holes in the river banks ??

If a panaque should spawn in a hole they would be very big.
I don't believe that they spawn in holes.

[MatsP]

I don't believe that they spawn in holes.

I tend to think this too - especially if you see the really big beasties of the large Panaque - they would easily need a hole that is a foot across and a meter deep.

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Mats