Mustard spot pleco (Panaqolus albomaculatus) project

[Jobro]

Coconut husks are truly good. Everybody should try it for their plecos. I just cook them for 1-2minutes if I put them into newer / smaller tanks or put them without cooking into bigger tanks. No need to remove the "hairy" stuff on the husks, my plecos seem to eat that within some weeks.

No Idea about palms though, I could imagine that a stem could start rotting under water. the fronds might be a better try for starters. Or maybe just a thin "slice" of the stem.

I only use bog-wood. In germany it's called "Moorkienholz". This is very soft and the panaque seem to eat it with huge delight. Even the tiny clowns can easily rasp graters from the wood. I find tiny pieces of wood throughout the tank. No idea if it's exactly the same what you guys would call bog-wood in the US. Maybe compare the pictures from google to each other.

[bekateen]

Yeah, I don't know what "bogwood" is. I always thought the term was essentially a nickname for any scraps of wood that were collected in a bog or swamp (not a particular species or genus of tree). Implicit in this is that the wood was dead and decaying.

Nowadays, LFS in my area sell packaged Mopani wood pieces, and sometimes processed grapevine tangles (by processed, I mean sand-blasted to strip the bark off them.

No, I didn't mean to suggest an entire palm frond, LOL. My aquaria are only 10-20 gallons in volume! I meant smaller fragments of the petioles, the stem-like portion of the palm frond which connects the frond to the tree trunk.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Yeah, I don't know what "bogwood" is. I always thought the term was essentially a nickname for any scraps of wood that were collected in a bog or swamp (not a particular species or genus of tree). Implicit in this is that the wood was dead and decaying.

The original "Bog Oak" (which is often Scots Pine, Pinus sylvestris) is semi-fossilised wood from peat bogs. It was uncovered when the peat was cut for fuel. (http://www.burrengeopark.ie/wp-content/ ... ogwood.pdf)

It hasn't decayed fully, because of the nutrient poor, acidic, low oxygen environment, and may be thousands of years old.

It wouldn't have any nutritional value, all that will be left is lignin and tannic substances.

The nutritional value of wood, and the exact nature of Loricariid xylophagy, has come up a few times, and I think you have? a copy of:
McDonald, R., Zhang, F., Watts, J. E. M., & Schreier, H. J. 2015. Nitrogenase diversity and activity in the gastrointestinal tract........ (http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 14&t=42092).

If you feed your fish Yam, Sweet potato etc. the nutritional content of the wood is probably less relevant than it is for wild fish. I'd try and find some wood that they like to process, and then use that. It maybe that wood that has some degree of fungal infection may be particularly attractive to them.

cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

Thanks Darrel for that info. Pretty much what I thought - bogwood may be composed of some common species, but itself is not a particular singular species (i.e., bogwood is not a species in a taxonomic sense).

And also evident from your definition is the idea that real bogwood may be collectable/harvestable in nature today if you go out and cut up peat bogs, but otherwise there is no way for modern farmers to "grow" crops of "new" bogwood, as you would grow a crop of corn. Most of the wood I find in local stores is just wood, not bogwood per se. As I mentioned, Mopani wood and grapevines are very common in the LFS around me, and also something sold as "Malaysian driftwood." Actually, the Malaysian driftwood is more common even than the Mopani wood in my area; it's usually sold without any labeling simply as "driftwood." As I look at my tanks, I realize in hindsight that mostly what I have is Malaysian driftwood, not Mopani wood.

Yeah, as long as the fish are pooping a lot and seem to be healthy (and especially considering that I supplement with fresh sweet potatoes and occasional algae wafers), I'm not concerned about the fish getting enough food. But I do like to mix things up a bit for variety sake; and that's why I asked about the palm petioles... That said, I doubt the fish care about variety as much as I do .

Cheers, Eric

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Have a look at "Kinds of Wood /Skeptical Aquarist" (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/kinds-wood).

cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

Nice link. Thanks, Darrel.

From this I read that the Manzanita wood, which I collected and aged myself from old dead Manzanita trees, might be bad for my plecos because it still had the papery bark attached. I was working with two naïve impressions, that (1) the papery bark would be good for the tank due to its tannins (never mind the fact that clown plecos are whitewater fish - apparently my mind didn't think that far ahead), and that (2) the papery bark might be a "food treat" for the fish. I always knew that the corky bark of some trees was potentially bad for fish, but I didn't know this also applied to the papery bark on plants like Manzanita. I guess I'd better strip the bark off the rest of my (as yet unused) Manzanita branches.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

From this I read that the Manzanita wood, which I collected and aged myself from old dead Manzanita trees, might be bad for my plecos because it still had the papery bark attached.

I wouldn't be too concerned. I'd just give the wood a brush with a wire brush to remove the flaky bits. If the wood was dead any bark will come off pretty quickly in the tank.

I don't think the presence or absence of tannins in white waters is that relevant either. The streams the

Panaque

/

Panaqolus

spp. are collected in must have sunken wood, it is just that in the white water you have suspended sediment, obscuring other colours, and a few more bases etc.

Have a look at this thread: <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 04#p128731>.

cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

Thanks for the link, Darrel. Well chosen. Actually, that thread knocks down two other issues at once - one more difference between bogwood and driftwood (as I had suspected, it seems to be affirmed in that thread that bogwood is more of a European term and driftwood an American term in the context of aquarium decor) and a reaffirmation that palm would be a good food for Panaqolus.

Too bad @Racoll 's photo was lost... People seemed to like it.

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

When talking about bogwood (moorkienholz) in germany, we are really talking about wood that was "mined" from peat/turf/bog. Whereas driftwood would be wood that you can find on shores of rivers or lakes.

I read that some people are using fresh willow twigs. You guys think the bark will be a problem with willow? Or other fresh twigs, e.g. walnut or oak? Remove the bark or not? The linked threads and websites suggest to remove the bark, but I read at some places they even put in fresh walnut with leaves where others say never put in fresh walnut. Think I'll have to do some tests myself. What could happen when panaque/panaqolus eat bark?

[dw1305]

Hi all,

When talking about bogwood (moorkienholz) in germany, we are really talking about wood that was "mined" from peat/turf/bog. Whereas driftwood would be wood that you can find on shores of rivers or lakes.

I think that would be the same in the UK.

I read that some people are using fresh willow twigs. You guys think the bark will be a problem with willow? Or other fresh twigs, e.g. walnut or oak? Remove the bark or not? The linked threads and websites suggest to remove the bark, but I read at some places they even put in fresh walnut with leaves where others say never put in fresh walnut. Think I'll have to do some tests myself. What could happen when panaque/panaqolus eat bark?

There isn't any nutritional value in the bark itself, but in growing wood the cambial layer and phloem, that lie just underneath the bark, will be relatively nutrient rich.


Have a look at "Wood for Tanks: <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=35930>", for some more comments.

cheers Darrel

[Jools]

Yes, I think any part of a palm tree could be offered. I've just been watching

Panaqolus sp(l398)

in the wild / underwater and they do sit on brown wood and not green matter.

Jools

[bekateen]

UPDATE: I've had the fish in quarantine for about one month now, and soon I'll be transferring them to their new home, a 20 Gal High tank with Centromochlus perugiae and golden tetras.

As to their health, they continue to eat the wood really well... There is an overabundance of dark brown poop in the tank that needs vacuumed out frequently. Although I've continued to feed them algae pellets and fresh sweet potato, I had not (until recently) found any indication that they were eating these. Finally, over 3 weeks after acquiring these fish, they've started eating the raw sweet potato with some frequency. I'm surprised it took so long, but maybe they just needed to learn that sweet potato is food. Now their tank is a mix of brown and orange poops; I've learned that the color of their poop is a good indicator of what foods they are eating, since these raw vegetables are so fiber-rich.

Otherwise, they still aren't filling out and fattening up yet - their bodies look about the same as they did when I bought them; perhaps it's just too soon, or maybe the confines of the quarantine tank and the plecos' slow start at eating have just squelched their growth a little; perhaps related to this, I've noticed several aggressive encounters in the quarantine tank (which is only a 10 Gal size) and some evidence of torn fins. So hopefully when I move them to the 20 Gal, there will be more room for them to separate from one another, and these fins can heal.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

Hi Eric I'm bringing up this thread again as now i'm really interested if you refer to my post I went to the LFS and bought... a pleco you'll see why. I'm thinking of getting these mustard spots identical to yours but they are quite thin as your were have you got yours back to full health yet

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,

Yes I saw your other thread, and I typed some there so I won't repeat everything here.

But to answer your question, yes, my mustard spots were somewhat thin when I got them, and they didn't eat for a couple of weeks. But they certainly weren't emaciated to the point of looking sickly. As you can see in the photos on the first page of this thread, they actually looked pretty good for being so fresh after shipping.

Mine are eating veggies and wood well now, and they are looking healthy. They haven't really fattened up yet and they haven't gained any body length. I'd like to see them fatten up so I can tell for sure which is/are boys and girls.

I've recently taken new photos and some video, but I haven't gotten around to posting it yet. I'll try to get to it this weekend.

Cheers, Eric

P.S., one correction relative to my last post in this thread: I never did move them out of their quarantine tank. They are eating okay in their current home, and my oil cats are spawning in the other tank where they are supposed to move into, so I don't want to mess that up.

[bekateen]

UPDATE: I was finally able to take time to make some new videos of the mustard spots. I'm still trying to figure out if I can sex them with any confidence. I'll be posting (not all at once) three videos of the fish, from above, from the sides, and from below. The first video is from above, dorsal views of each fish.

From the videos, it's clear to me that all the fish have some growing out to do. First, none of them have really big odontodes on their posterior body sides. Second, if there are any females in the group, none of them are particularly round.

However, as can be seen in this first video, there is a slight difference in the width of the body across the pelvic area when comparing the 70 mm SL fish (probable male) to the other two fish, especially to the 75 mm fish (probable female, or so I hope). The smallest fish (65 mm SL) may be either a female or a subordinate male. After almost three months in my possession, both the largest and smallest fish continue to have smaller pectoral odontodes than the medium sized fish.

Behaviorally, I just introduced my new home-made pleco caves a few days ago in this tank. At first, I saw only the 70 mm (male?) in a cave, which made me more hopeful of gender. Alas, this morning I awoke to find a different fish in the cave (alone), so being in a cave means either that I have more than one male, or it means nothing at all...

Obviously, I'm looking at three fish that all can easily pass as unsexable: Really, none of them show strong sexual dimorphism at this time. What I'm trying to accomplish here is to identify slight differences in body shape that I can track, to see if they ultimately become good predictors of gender for the fish as the fish eventually mature and fill-out as male/female.

After watching the video, do you have any opinions as to gender?

Cheers, Eric

Sexing mustard spot plecos (Panaqolus albomaculatus) dorsal views

[pleconut]

In terms of behaviour and discovering different fish in caves I would say only as i see it in my sp L397 i have 4 presumably males as you sexed from my pics 2 of which that are always in the same cave the smallest 2 also looking like males have not decided on a cave my theory being they reach a point in terms of age or maturity where having their own cave becomes of importance to them though the biggest of the two is now working on establishing himself a cave by challenging an occupying female as i witnessed today. Then the 3 females that are in different caves everyday, or like the smallest male is also, elsewhere in the tank.

[pleconut]

But as an estimated guess 1st fish- male- slight ondotode growth. The 2nd fish- female- wider in the middle. The 3rd fish -even wider in the middle than 2nd - no odontode growth.

[bekateen]

But as an estimated guess 1st fish- male- slight ondotode growth. The 2nd fish- female- wider in the middle. The 3rd fish -even wider in the middle than 2nd - no odontode growth.

Yes, those are my thoughts, although because of the small size of the third fish, I'm hedging my bet there (but yes, I'm inclined to suspect female there too).

[pleconut]

Though saying this when you post the other pics of sides and below opinions may change how did you get them to stay still is my question. ?

[bekateen]

Here is the next video: It shows each fish from a ventral view, with the bodies pressed up against the side of the aquarium. I've read elsewhere that this can help sex animals (by comparing the genital papillae), but honestly I did not find this view to be informative for these mustard spot plecos. It is much easier for me to look at the fish while they are suspended in air in order to look for differences in genital papillae (that will be the next video posted), which won't be until later).

Cheers, Eric

Sexing mustard spot plecos (Panaqolus albomaculatus) ventral views against aquarium wall

[pleconut]

I've seen close ups from the same angle of 2 of my L397 the papillae appears to come to a white point in only of my 2 immature fish that are I think are male having slight ondontode growth, behaviour wise- tends to stay in and defend one cave even challenging another for one, and I think female, wide in the middle but no odontode growth at all- behaviour wise moves caves. These L397s are both sub-adult fish. So maybe it changes/develops as they grow/mature or become ready to spawn. Although again I would like to emphasise 'I think' male and female but only from what evidence I've seen.

[Jobro]

I love the sexing games, but I'll have to pass on these, can't see any noticeable difference right now.

[bekateen]

Here is the last new video of these fish: It shows each fish from a lateral view and a ventral view, with the bodies held out of water in air. Although I'm still unconvinced that ANY of these fish are definitely females, this out-of-air video reinforces my impression that the largest fish is a female, and the middle-sized fish is a male (and the smallest is still ambiguous).

Cheers, Eric

Sexing mustard spot plecos (Panaqolus albomaculatus) side views and ventral views out of water

[Jobro]

I like your Vids, Eric!

Difference in genitalpapillae doesn't seem to be as prominent as in your Clowns, yet. I think it's still gonna take some time to be sure about the genders. I pray for you having a female among those, so you can get some breeding going on someday.

[pleconut]

The older and larger female L397s i have and larger than the size of the mustard spots are starting to reveal a bump to the appearance of the papillae to me the now the largest fish is female, but it maybe the second and third both need time to get to the size of the largest fish to know with more certainty . But also look out for odontode growth, in L397 i found males usually develop this quite early. If there is no ondontode growth and they all turn out to be female you might want to attempt sourcing a sexed male if you want to breed them.

[bekateen]

Agreed. It's very difficult to tell with certainty. That's why I'm taking the photos and videos of these albomaculatus now, when gender is not definitive, and likewise for my mature but out-of-condition guahiborum. These threads are collecting "early" observations, as discussed in an older thread (Re: Sexing Panaqolus maccus? Spawning at last!) to see if we can accurately predict gender of fish before their sexually-dimorphic traits are clear. Why? Because typically we never find well-conditioned fish for sale in stores; we find juvies and out-of-condition adults.

If I'm correct (and fortunate, LOL), I have one male, one female, and one unknown albomaculatus... But only time will tell.

Now that the mustard spots are in with the oil cats, I'm going to raise the temperature in that tank to 80F, to see if that will help with conditioning. Right now the heater is set a little low (about 76-78F), not on purpose but because that setting was sufficient previously when the outside weather was warmer. But now as Winter sets in, the heater is not keeping the tank warm enough for my liking.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

Hi Eric, I. mentioned in my identification thread for my male mustard spot I aquired, that I'd put some pics here, I didn't feel it appropriate to put this post in that thread, now the ID has been established. In relation to the pics you requested, I would gather you would want them as soon as I can get them, while the fish is not in optimal condition, so you get a good comparison with your ones, obviously your ones may be in a better condition for their size, as you've given them a lot of TLC. He's eating, that's a good sign and he loves his wood cluttered tank. (For the benefit of anyone else reading this thread he was in a tank at an LFS with no wood for quite some time, so I rescued him) I always found at least with my L397s the adults don't tend to go for veg as much now, they seem to grow out of it, but he's had a nibble on the courgette (zucchini), once he's had a few days to settle, I will attempt to get some good pics in some kind of holding tank, but probably not as good as yours! Like you've done with yours I will mark his progress, and the others I intend to get with photos.

[bekateen]

Hi Teresa,
Thank you. Don't sweat the rush. I'm more interested in seeing the extent of the odontodes in relation to the body size you already measured than I am in knowing that the fish is brand new to you and not conditioned. Take your time and don't stress over needing to take pics before it is convenient for you.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

Ok Eric, I just got him a slightly bigger tank to go into, by himself for the time being once the QT time's up i might add in some tetras. It was suggested by the person who I got the L397s from, that the conditions in the L397 tank would obviously be ideal for him. But that also he might become territorial, but he did warn me to not allow them to cross breed, and that it wouldn't be right, I tend to agree with him. It must therefore be possible, in Panoquolus, but I'm not certain, still I'm not going to chance it.

[pleconut]

Hi Eric, as I promised you, a pic of my mustard spot, now he's settled himself into a cave. Also a measurement, the measurements are going by comparing him to the total length of the cave he's in. He's 4 inches, standard length 5 inches, total length approx, but i didnt include the long extentions on the tips of the tail, in the total length measurement as its quite difficult to do exactly when comparing to the cave length. He's been doing the same thing as my male L397s fanning and sweeping out poop from his cave, and lots of it. Only my male L397s do this, I've never seen the females do it. He doesn't have much odontode growth of which to speak, maybe just the beginnings of it can be noticed when you zoom in on the screen. I've added a pic of my hairy tail male L397 that is around the same size for comparison. He could in fact be a she, apart from the fanning/cave cleaning I've observed, which might indicate male. But until the weight goes on the sex can't be confirmed for certain. Does have extremely spiny pectoral fins and very long intopercular spines. Here's the pics please excuse the glare at the top on the tank glass.

Male ? Mustard spot pleco not very hairy.

Male L397 of the same size hairy.

The best I can do in terms of pics for now. Will try to get some better dorsal view ones at a later date. Hope this helps.