Help with ill Golden Nugget (L085?)

[lsmkv]

HI everyone,

I need help with my golden nugget pleco who iv had for 6 months, when i got home from work he (or she) was upside down in a corner of the tank really pale with no movement.
Thinking the pleco had died i went to get it out the tank where it started slowly moving. iv placed him in a small 20 litre tank that id intended to keep shrimp in.
over the last hour his colors have come back but he is swimming around in circles hitting everything in the tank sometimes sideways/upside down.
I'm unsure of what may of caused the problem or how best to help fix it.
Fist two photos are from 3 days ago, then one from when i first put him in the small tank





Tank size 180l running for about 8 months
Other Fish in the tank are:
7 purple harlequin
7 Golden harlequin
6 Penguin Tetra
6 Lemon Tetra
2 Zebra Loach

Water parameters are:
For the 180l
Temp 23-25
pH8.0
GH 8
KH 10d-15d
NO3 50
NO2 0
CL2 0.8
20-30% Water change every Saturday

For the 20l
Temp 25-27
PH 8
GH 8
KH 15
n03 25
n02 0
cl20

Thank you
Luke

[pleconut]

Hi, to me, the golden nugget looks extremely thin. They can be notoriously difficult to get feeding, have you at all seen him eating regularly. What do you feed him? If he is eating, and not diet related, it could be a case of parasitic worms here. I'm not personally very experienced in medicating plecos. We can make a start by establishing whether this is possibly feeding related, or possibly something else that someone with more experience, than myself, may be able to assist you with.

[lsmkv]

Hi, iv rarely seen him eating. when the lights are off, i feed algae wafers every other day and take out whats left in the morning and frozen bloodworm twice a week that is always gone before morning, ever before the zebra loaches it would be gone. i had tried sinking different vegetables but don't think he ever touched them.

[pleconut]

It seems to be feeding related, now having knowledge of this info given regarding feeding, repashy make some very good gel based foods, these sink to the bottom of the tank, an omnivorous type is a good starting point. Here in the UK, there's an online supplier of these foods called the reptile centre, based in Northhampton, i get my repashy supplies here. Another food to try is New Era (or vitalis) pleco pellets. Also try some fresh vegetables such as courgette, sweet potatoes these can be weighed down. A good brand of algae wafers, is JBL Novo pleco continue with these as if he's eating the algae wafers, its better to stick with them while new foods are introduced.

A variety of different foods is a good approach. Algae wafers alone are not suitabe for most plecos.

It may take time for him to start eating, feed in small portions, a variety of foods. Id advise to keep him separate from the other fish until he's eating well.

Finally for those keeping golden nuggets I personally haven't done so, if I've missed anything out and you can add to/give even more information on a list of good foods or repashy combinations.

[pleconut]

Baryancistrus xanthellus

In addition there's a direct link above to the information page of the golden nugget pleco, it will give you more info on the plecos requirements.

[Narwhal72]

Gold nuggets are actually pretty difficult to acclimate and most die 6 months after import. They often suffer from feeding issues which leads to wasting. It's pretty evident that is what has happened to your gold nugget. Based on it's symptoms it is probably too far gone to save.

There are a lot of causes of this wasting. The biggest one is that all gold nuggets are wild caught. They are often treated with antibiotics in the shipping and transferring process. This can wipe out their beneficial gut flora of bacteria that they need to digest food. The result is that they eat, but are unable to absorb nutrition from their food. Which leads to a slow death from starvation. The treatment for this is generally to put new arrivals into a tank with at least one pleco that has been in captivity for an extended period of time and feeds on the same diet as the gold nuggets. BN plecos work fine. The gold nugget will consume the feces of the BN pleco and the beneficial bacteria that were in the BN will get transferred to the gold nugget.

Another thing is to feed them a large quantity and variety of foods. Repashy gel foods are great for being able to provide a large volume of nutritional food (that sinks) that can be grazed over time. I feed mine Morning wood, Spawn N grow, and Fruut Luups regularly. I also feed cucumber (courgette in the UK) and zucchini. Mine never took to sweet potato. I also feed Aqueon Algae wafers regularly too. You almost can't feed them enough.

One thing that I have seen with mine is that they also eat wood. From what I understand this is not typical for the species. But they whittled down an 18" diameter stump to about 16" before I added some L226 a couple of years ago. That stump is now about 10" in diameter now but I think more of that is from the L226.

I have had my group of 3 since July 2010 so I like to think I have done pretty well with them so far.

[Linus_Cello]

There are a lot of causes of this wasting. The biggest one is that all gold nuggets are wild caught. They are often treated with antibiotics in the shipping and transferring process. This can wipe out their beneficial gut flora of bacteria that they need to digest food. The result is that they eat, but are unable to absorb nutrition from their food. Which leads to a slow death from starvation. The treatment for this is generally to put new arrivals into a tank with at least one pleco that has been in captivity for an extended period of time and feeds on the same diet as the gold nuggets. BN plecos work fine. The gold nugget will consume the feces of the BN pleco and the beneficial bacteria that were in the BN will get transferred to the gold nugget.

Good tip on keeping them with BNs to re-charge their guts (but I'm guessing that it's not eating the BN poop, but the presence of the bacteria in the tank from the BN pleco, that are present after the poop breaks down, that re-charges).

[bekateen]

Very interesting! (I've avoided gold nuggets for this very reason). Would they benefit more from being housed with a hard-core wood-eater (with or without also adding a BN to the tank), like

Panaqolus maccus

? It seems like you'd get a lot more of a different selection of microbes.

[Narwhal72]

From what I understand, is that gut microbes have a very short life outside the digestive tract. Makes them very difficult to study from the limited research I have read. The feces actually protects the bacteria inside the feces longer which allows them to transfer to a new host. One of the reasons that coprophagy is so common is that it works like probiotics. The practice is even being used by modern medicine to treat some digestive disorders (fecal transplants). Our recently acquired puppy seems obsessed with it. I remember reading research on it in the past and it's pretty widespread in fish. Some species of marine tangs get a major proportion of their diet from the feces of others.

I use BN as an example as they are a common herbivorous pleco that are easily available and will thrive on the same aquarium diet as a gold nugget. If the gut flora for a BN are adapted to the diet they are receiving, the same flora should work for a gold nugget.

Gold nuggets are not really adapted to be wood eaters in the wild. Not much wood in a deep, fast flowing river to feed on I guess. My guess is that the gut flora from a wood eater would be fundamentally different from an algae grazer. The fish I have may be anomalous but I am curious to hear from others who keep GN's and their effects on wood. It may be they eat the wood but don't really receive any nutritional benefit from it.

Andy

[lsmkv]

Thank you for the information unfortunately he was to far gone. would it be the same case for all plecos that are wild caught and imported? and to house them with pleco with the same diet?

[pleconut]

Sorry to hear this news. I'd heard of the practise of introduction of gut flora somewhere on the forum before,that it also works for fry in establishing gut flora. Seems that @Narwal72 has some good knowledge of this concept, he may be able to confirm if there's other plecos also that benefit from this, I'm not certain this would be necessary for every wild caught pleco, or if this applies to gold nugget plecos because feeding is such an issue and this has been discovered to help.
EDIT
Putting this in practise, I don't think every wild caught pleco is treated with antibiotics during the shipping process. Quarantining protocol would also need consideration.

[Narwhal72]

I don't think it's something that every wild caught pleco would need. As pleconut said, not all plecos are going to be treated with antibiotics during shipping. Although most will or should be treated with an antiparasite treatment as intestinal parasites in wild caught fish are very common. They don't cause much problem for fish in the wild as the rate of reinfection is low. But in the aquarium, reinfection (the increase in parasite density in the gut due to the ingestion of parasite eggs/larvae) is much, much higher and that causes issues so most fish are treated.

Whether those medications affect beneficial gut flora is unknown to me.

I think the effects on herbivorous fishes would be more pronounced. Since a carnivore probably does not need the complex flora of bacteria to digest food and it could get these bacteria from other aquarium residents (tetras, cichlids, etc...).

My advice is that if you are purchasing any wild caught fish, after a treatment for intestinal parasites, throw a BN in with them for a month just in case.

Andy

[Jools]

Thank you for the information unfortunately he was to far gone. would it be the same case for all plecos that are wild caught and imported? and to house them with pleco with the same diet?

No. Suggest you read the Shane's World article on why gold nuggets are not a great pleco for the average aquarist and then do your research on something else easier to keep that you like the look of and try again.

Jools

[timtheunissen]

Apart of the whole exporting story. I would mind to check your water... I have raised 8 of them now for 4 years. Bought them at 10-15 cm and they are currently growing very good as two are around 20cm and the smaller ones around 15-17cm.

So when I take look at your water conditions. Next time I would raise the water to 28 degrees minimal ( up to 34 degrees during summer/dry season). I would lower your pH as the Rio Xingu has got a pH around 6-7 normally, 8 is out of the question. Third I would lower your nitrate level... B. Xanthellus are used to clean oxygen rich water often simulated by a waterpump combined with an airpump (when you have no plants in your tank) and make sure your filter can take a good peace in cleaning your tank.

Temp 23-25
pH8.0
NO3 50

Keep giving them those water changes or attach an Hydra stream filter which also helps cleaning your nitrate level.

I have to agree that this example looks rather skinny. Keep in mind that the Baryancistrus species need food during the whole day. So make sure you have some in your tank. They have rather small long intestines which allows them not to eat much in one single stroke, but they eat this in several strokes.

As Haavard Stoere ones told the people here. "Baryancistrus Xanthellus are not for lazy fishkeepers as they are very demanding." Keep that in mind

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ng#p149244

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ng#p153945

[Jobro]

I have two 6-7cm L177s in my community for more than 3 months now. I didn't see them a lot in the beginning. But with many other plecos in the same tank, they started to get more and more active in just a vew weeks. They come out during feeding time and are quite competitive when it comes to eating. They look healthy and I would guess they grew about 1cm each since I purchased them. I like them a lot. I guess they are also feeding on algae and echinodorus in my tank. In my experience new plecos and especially wild caughts do way better in a tank with other plecos than they would do by themselves. They are usually too timid too start eating and just sit around hiding in a quarantine tank. But in a pleco community they are getting all active very soon, they also get more competitive for foods and more daring - mine will come out with bright lights on when there is food. Freshly wild caught plecos in a species tank all by their own will take very very long to come out during daytime or feeding time. You don't really see them at all. In fact most plecos seem to be rather social and will do better with higher numbers of other plecos around. A single wild caught pleco will probably always be very shy and never get used to the presence of humans surrounding him.