"Corydoras venezuelanus" Black Cory's"

[rcbows]

I just bought some "Corydoras venezuelanus" Black Cory's, I read all that this forum says about them! I was wondering if anyone has had any other experiences or knowledge about this "New" species. The breeder of these fish states

black corydoras spawned and raised in my fish room.

The black form appears in a localized area in the Central Llanos of Venezuela, close to the Middle Orinoco. These tributaries are typically slow and very warm. The black form is only found in the Llanos in drainages of the Orinoco.

Here is a picture of what I bought! The pic is from the breeder!


Can anyone elaborate on this species?

[CoryfanAad]

Isn't this fish called Black Schultzei overhere (Black Venezuela in Holland) and a tank bred variaty (not found in the wild)? http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... cies_id=34

[Lilfishy]

Aad is right, they're C.schultzei sp. black, a man made colour variety developed in Germany, they're not found in the wild

[rcbows]

I believe you that they are C. schultzie, but that's not what I was told so that's why I asked you guys, cause I wanted to get an expert opinion. I am glad that they are C. schultzie anyways, because I wanted that strain (vareity).

[CoryfanAad]

I believe you that they are C. schultzie, but that's not what I was told so that's why I asked you guys, cause I wanted to get an expert opinion. I am glad that they are C. schultzie anyways, because I wanted that strain (vareity).

they are beautiful !!!

[Jools]

This mix up only happens in the US partially due to the fact that the black C. venzuelanus were bred there by Don Kinyon and partially due to the lack of the pictured fish in the US until later than Europe. The guys / posts above are correct on ID.

Jools

[Lilfishy]

They were developed in Germany but since then have been extensively bred in the Czech Republic, there is a post by Ian Fuller on this thread explaining it.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ry#p219184
We in the Uk have the same problem with them being misnamed as black Venezuelans.

[Jools]

We in the Uk have the same problem with them being misnamed as black Venezuelans.

Interesting. Who is selling them as such?

Jools

[Lilfishy]

Most Lfs I've seen them in label them as black Venezuelans as that's what their importers name them as unfortunately

[CoryfanAad]

We in the Uk have the same problem with them being misnamed as black Venezuelans.

Interesting. Who is selling them as such?

Jools

in Holland the name "Black Schultzi" is never used. Only sold as Black Venezuela overhere as well !!

[Jools]

in Holland the name "Black Schultzi" is never used. Only sold as Black Venezuela overhere as well !!

I am guessing zwart schultzi would not be a great name. Last time I saw them for sale in Ruinemans, the common name was black venezuela as you say, but this is a whole different implication from the similar C. venezuelanus "black".

I see them sold as black aeneus all of the time (and indeed in the Netherlands) which is why I am interested in where they are being sold in the UK under the black venezuela as I'll try to check out the source.

I'm kind of interested in this as I'm going to update the site with the info and because C. venezuelanus "black" is a species I've collected in the wild and C. schultzi(aeneus) is a species I'm keeping at present.

Cheers,

Jools

[rcbows]

They are not in the UK! I am in the US in Florida. The fish came from the state of Tennessee, USA! My flag does not come up on the web site, so you wouldn't know! Sorry!

[Nabobmob1]

In the states I think people are intentionally calling them venezuelanus knowing full well what they truly are, trying to get more value from the fish by claiming them as "Wild" or "F1".

It's a shame that fish identities intentionally get lost because another name increases the value.

[Karsten S.]

Hi Jools,

do you have a picture of your black "venezuelanus" ?

--

What you guys have written is mostly correct, I have just some small additions.

C. schultzei as well as C. venezuelanus are scientifically no valid species as the holotypes are lost and they are offically considered to be synonyms of C. aeneus. If this is justified or not is more or less impossible to tell (without holotypes).
The original description of the species does not allow to tell which species/from of the aeneus group were given these names.

In Venezuela there is more than one species of the aeneus group and as far as I know there is no proof that the nice corys with orange heads that we know from Venzuela and we associate with the name C. venezuelanus are really the ones Ihering used in his work. At least there is a useful type locality given. Does anyone has/knows of pictures of living corys from the type locality or does anyone has confirmed catching locations of "our C. venezuelanus" ?

With C. schultzei it is even more uncertain: the type locality is pretty much unknown. The holotype was an aquarium fish said to originale from "small water-courses of the Amazone". The aquarium specimen that we hobbyist call C. schultzei originate from Colombia as far as I know and I don't know of any proof that these are the same species that Holly described...

Or does anyone has more detailed information about this matter ?

I am pretty sure that the corys of the aeneus group which we call C. schultzei and C. venezuelanus are not the same species than C. aeneus but I think no one really knows if we have given them the right names.

Cheers,

[rcbows]

I looked up synonyms to Corydoras aeneus on "Fish base"! This is what I got!



So according to Fishbase Corydoras schultzie and Corydoras venezuelanus are just synonyms of Corydoras aeneus! So are the black Cory's aeneus or something else entirely. Were they collected as pure black fish or a creation of some ones hybridization? Is the name we are using on them even correct?

Scot Cats http://www.scotcat.com/callichthyidae/c ... _black.htm has a better description of what they are:

This aquarium strain was first bred in Germany in 1989 and is now being bred in the Czech Republic. It has been bred from the schultzei- type variety of C.aeneus which some aquarists believe is [schultzei] a species in its own right. The "real" black aeneus wild strain is from the Llanos of Venezuela and also Colombia which is being imported as "black aeneus". The wild strain has more of a brown body colour. Aquarium Care: Will do well in a community setup with smaller tank mates such as Rasboras and Tetra's. Do not house with aggressive species or large Cichlids. Reproduction: Breeding is comparatively easy with cool water changes that lowers the temperature, triggering them off. Feed a good balanced diet making sure that they get their full quota of food if kept in a community tank. Diet: A good quality flake food provides all the essential vitamins that they need with extra feedings of frozen bloodworm, white worm (sparingly) and tablet food.

This goes back to the old problem as to what each individual calls the fish. That's why scientific names are so important to identify fish or any animal. I think whoever first produced this fish or collected this fish should have done the paperwork for proper identification. I guess the name should be Corydoras sp. aeneus "venezuelanus black schultzie"

Ron

[Karsten S.]

Hello Ron,

I guess the name should be Corydoras sp. aeneus "venezuelanus black schultzie"

I disagree, there are basically three options:

1. you fully believe the aquarists that they use the name C. schultzei for the correct cory, then you could call the black corys available in the trade C. schultzei var. "black" or C. aeneus var. "schultzei black".
2. you go with the scientists that this cory is a synonym of C. aeneus, then you might call it C. aeneus var. "black"
3. you go with the scientists that C. schultzei is not a valid species but believe the aquarists that what they call C. schultzei is not the same as C. aeneus then you could call them C. cf. aeneus "black"

The only things that I think are clear is that they have nothing to do with C. venezuelanus as "our C. schultzei" does not come from Venezuela and the black corys are a man made strain of "our C. schultzei".

--

If we are talking about the wild black strain then this is a different story.

Cheers,

[rcbows]

What does the cf. in the name mean? DUH! I feel stupid asking but my memory for that kind of stuff often fails me.

3. you go with the scientists that C. schultzei is not a valid species but believe the aquarists that what they call C. schultzei is not the same as C. aeneus then you could call them C. cf. aeneus "black"

Is there an actual species "Corydoras venezuelanus" and "Corydoras schultzie", or and a black wild type fish?

[Dave Rinaldo]

There is a glossary in the HELP! dropdown tab at the top of the page

cf. Literally means "confer." An animal appears similar to an identified species, but without certainty or confirmation

[rcbows]

Thank you Dave I am learning things everyday about fish! Yours make 2 at once, both the help button and the meaning of cf. It amazing cause my wife say I know everything! LOL

[Karsten S.]

Hi,

Is there an actual species "Corydoras venezuelanus" and "Corydoras schultzie", or and a black wild type fish?

this is considered by many to be C. venezuelanus:



Not the best pic, but the cory should be recognizable.

Most of the corys sold in the trade as C. aeneus are what is considered by some aquarists to be C. schultzei.
I don't have an own pic, therefore only a link:
http://www.l-welse.com/gallery/displayi ... ageid=3044

There is a man made black variant of this cory which is sold as C. aeneus "black", C. schultzei "black" or C. "black Venezuela" or some other combinations:


The real C. aeneus (from Trinidad) is not available in the trade.
I don't know of any black variants of C. aeneus or C. venezuelanus (the species shown above).

However, as stated there is a natural black variant mostly called C. "black Venezuela" or similar, but I have not yet seen it.

Cheers,

[rcbows]

Karsten, just clarify one thing for me what is the name of the Black Cory in the picture? Thanks!

Ron

[Karsten S.]

Hi,

there is no "official" name, as stated before it depends...

This is the man made black variant of what many aquarists call C. schultzei. As it is certainly something different than the C. aeneus from Trinidad, I usually also use this name as all other names are IMHO wrong and at least it could be that C. schultzei is actually right...

Cheers,

[rcbows]

OK! Thanks for your opinion! I value it!

Ron

[OwduaNM]

I have been searching for a place to buy these very same Cory's, but have had very little luck. I have seen them pop up on Aquabid a couple times but I either lost the bid, or stayed away based on the feedback of the seller.

Where did you purchase these guys from?


Thank you!

[rcbows]

I purchased them on AQUABID! I contacted the supplier and he preferred me to send you to Aqua-bid rather than give out his address out to the public. He has 12 he will be putting up soon!

Ron

[rcbows]

OwduaNM He changed his mind if you want to email him here is his email address brucewanda@bellsouth.net.

Ron

[Jools]

However, as stated there is a natural black variant mostly called C. "black Venezuela" or similar, but I have not yet seen it.

I will add a species entry and picture for it today. It is pictured in this 2006 thread.

Jools

[Shane]

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =6&t=17364

This thread discusses the differences between C.venezuelanus I collected throughout the Tuy and Maracaibo basins and the venezuelanus "black" form I collected in the northern llanos.
I cant think there would be many venezuelanus black in the hobby, but Don Kinyon did take some he collected with me back to the U.S. and spawn them. Norbert Flauger also took some (in baby food jars lol) to Germany, but I do not know who he gave them to.
-Shane

[Jools]

Here is the image of the Llanos fish Shane found.



Just while we are discussing this and I am on the cusp of adding it (it has been unresolved too long) and some explanatory text.

Do you think I should:

a) Add the image to the C. venezuelanus species entry as a black form (now that I think about it, seems best).
b) Add a new species as C. venezuelanus "black" (are we sure it is not a colour form).
c) Add a new species as C. aeneus "black" (is it closer to the trinidad fish than C. venezuelanus (based on shape)).

And, as a bonus question, should it have a CW number (location well known)?

To be clear (again), this pictured fish in this post is not, in any way, related to the black form

Corydoras schultzei

which is what is fairly common in the hobby.

Jools

[Nabobmob1]

Here is the image of the Llanos fish Shane found.

Do you think I should:

a) Add the image to the C. venezuelanus species entry as a black form (now that I think about it, seems best).

I agree

And, as a bonus question, should it have a CW number (location well known)?

In my opinion it certainly should receive a CW number considering collection location is known.

To be clear (again), this pictured fish in this post is not, in any way, related to the black form

Corydoras schultzei

which is what is fairly common in the hobby.

I think regardless of how you choose to list this fish in the E-log, something along the lines of "not to be confused with the aquarium strain black form of

Corydoras schultzei

which is commonly misrepresented as this fish" needs to be noted.