Help with T.musaica Biotype

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 06 May 2015, 02:48

Im in the doodling stages of making a biotype tank for and wanted advice on decor and fish.

Tank: Fluval 26 gallon Bowfront
Decor: Savu pods, coco pods, wood tangles (probably redmoor root)
Fish: , marbled hatchets (or some small tetras) and a trio of some type of small cichlid ( I had a type in mind...Dicrossus filamentosus)

My main challenges are leaf litter, substrate, fish and plants. Also if you know were I could find this stuff in the great white north it would be very helpful!!!

any suggestions are welcome!

Regards
James

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 06 May 2015, 03:23

I collected these guys in the wild. Have a read here and here.

These are main river fish, so you won't find them with hatchets. The Dicrossus, possibly (they'd be a good choice regardless of "biotope"). Discus would be better of course, but your tank is too small for them.

No plants, and not really much leaf litter in their habitat. Some soft sand and a bunch of wood, and they'll be good. The seed pods are a nice touch. Remember to keep them warm too (28C+).

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 06 May 2015, 14:23

Thanks racoll!

Do you know what the PH is in that system? I thought the Dicrossus where from the same rivers as the T.musiaca, is this not true? lastly if Hatchets are out of the question what tetra would you recommend for a dither? I was going to go for a tributary look, do T.musiaca not inhabit those areas?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 06 May 2015, 16:38

It's clearwater, so will be slightly to moderately acid (5-6, I expect).

I thought the Dicrossus where from the same rivers as the T.musiaca, is this not true?

I never saw any Dicrossus there, but the distribution seems to fit, and I saw D. maculatus in similar places in other rivers, so they may work well.

Hatchets are out of the question what tetra would you recommend for a dither?

Small tetras are not so common in the main rivers, and the ones you do find tend to be very boring looking. A characidium or small anostomid would be more appropriate, but you'll be lucky to find these in the trade.

This is the problem with biotopes. Only a small subset of fishes (i.e. the valuable ones) will get exported from any particular location. For example, just a handful of species get exported from the Nhamundá, and these are the discus, the tatias, the peckoltias, and the hypans. If you can find any of these, you've got yourself a biotope.

I was going to go for a tributary look, do T.musiaca not inhabit those areas?

Not sure what you mean by "tributary"?

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 06 May 2015, 17:48

What i mean by tributary look is small river attached to the Orinico- not the main river. picures I have scene of these areas are quite lovely and what I would like to replicate, Are not found in such areas?

Here is link to the pictures that originally gave me the idea

http://amazon.belowwater.com/videos.html

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 06 May 2015, 18:35

What i mean by tributary look is small river attached to the Orinico

Strictly speaking, a tributary is just a watercourse that flows into another water course. Hence it is rather an uninformative description, i.e the Rio Nhamundá is a minor tributary of the Amazon river, but it's a pretty substantial river regardless. A small stream with ankle deep water can also be a tributary of the Nhamundá.

I think you just mean a forest creek/stream, right? These tend to be shallow, shaded by trees, and with cooler water than the main river (~25C). This is where you'll tend to find things like the prettier tetras, the pencilfishes, the hatchet fishes, the apistos, etc. I did not investigate these habitats in much detail on that trip, so I cannot say for sure if the tatias are found there or not. What I do know is that they were found in large numbers in the main river. Make of that what you will.

P.S. do not concentrate on the Orinoco. The real T. musaica is found there, but these are not exported for the trade (although Pier Aquatics in the UK did get some in recently). Rather, the fish you will find in the trade---and the ones listed under T. musaica in the cat-elog---are a similar but undescribed species from the Rio Nhamundá.

YouTube · Post by **bekateen** » 06 May 2015, 18:44

racoll wrote:... the fish you will find in the trade---and the ones listed under T. musaica in the cat-elog---are a similar but undescribed species from the Rio Nhamundá.

That begs several questions, but not for this thread.

Cheers, Eric

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 07 May 2015, 10:58

I will have a talk with my dealer and see wether or not the fish were collected from the Orinico, although I doubt this factor alone will tell me if its Tatia Musiaca, it will help me coordinate a bio-type a little better.

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 07 May 2015, 14:29

Well I got a response and it actually has worsened matters. contradicting info here and in the Cat-elog. perhaps I should look at a different species of Tatia to create a biotype for.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 May 2015, 14:55

Well I got a response and it actually has worsened matters. contradicting info here and in the Cat-elog.

So what did the dealer say exactly?

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 07 May 2015, 16:15

The dealer said that the fish from Nhamunda have never been seen alive and never been exported. The Orinico has no T.musiaca- T.musiaca come from black water Atabapo and Inirida. To acidic for plants (PH 4.5)

look nice, there probably less confusing than these guys to

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 May 2015, 16:45

The dealer said that the fish from Nhamunda have never been seen alive and never been exported.

Nonsense. Here's a bunch of them ready for export.

The Orinico has no T.musiaca- T.musiaca come from black water Atabapo and Inirida.

Atabapo, correct, but there are also Orinoco records too.

probably less confusing than these guys to

What's confusing exactly? You believe the dealer or me?

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 07 May 2015, 18:18

I should specify He said no specimens of the un described species have been collected- not T.musiaca

Honestly I want to believe both, I respect you and the dealer a great deal. I just don't understand why an undescribed fish would not A.) have its own page B.) have its pictures in a Described species profile and C.) come from such different environments.

I sure you can see the confusion this would cause in a beginner

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 May 2015, 18:48

He said no specimens of the un described species have been collected

Okay, I'm sure your dealer knows a great deal, but the undescribed species has been collected (by me). It is very much in the aquarium trade, as all the pictures in the cat-elog show it. Most get sent to Japan apparently. If your dealer is sourcing the fish from Colombia, then it is the real T. musaica, however. We have no photos of that species in the cat-elog. Having those added would be awesome!

I just don't understand why an undescribed fish would not A.) have its own page B.) have its pictures in a Described species profile

Sometimes I feel PlanetCatfish is a victim of its own success in a way. It's so good that people assume everything on here is gospel truth. In fact, it's very much a work in progress. We are learning new things every day. At the time those fishes entered the trade, I don't think people knew where they came from. It was close enough to T. musaica, so that's what it got identified as.

Jools and the team work their butts off to make sure everything is accurate, but there are so many things to work on, and only limited time in which to do it. I'm sure that if the team accepts my reasoning that the Nhamundá Tatia is a new species, it will be changed in time. Alternatively we can wait for a formal description (which I believe is forthcoming).

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 May 2015, 18:57

I sure you can see the confusion this would cause in a beginner

I can very much sympathise with this. When I first joined the site 12 years and over 5,000 posts ago (!), I bought a plec that was identified here as an L number that wasn't in the cat-elog. I was thoroughly confused. Why would it not be in the cat-elog? I thought that L numbers were invented by PlanetCatfish. I simply had no idea they came from somewhere else entirely!

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 07 May 2015, 21:20

This one is more complex than you think. Most of the pictured in the cat-elog are (or were, there are now some in the US) my fishes. They were imported with Orinoco fishes such as , L. triactis, northern and as well as other Atabapo fishes. It was only mid last year I found out these were actually Brazilian fishes that came out of South American via Bogota. They're not on the IBAMA list and are pretty readily told apart from woodcats that are - which also explained why they are pretty high end price wise.

There are two other species of high contrast Tatia that this species might be, or might be affiliated with and I've not done the homework to figure out which and so I've not updated the site.

Jools

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 May 2015, 21:48

This one is more complex than you think. Most of the pictured Tatia musaica in the cat-elog are (or were, there are now some in the US) my fishes. They were imported with Orinoco fishes such as L473, L. triactis, northern Lamontichthys and Spatuloricaria as well as other Atabapo fishes. It was only mid last year I found out these were actually Brazilian fishes that came out of South American via Bogota.

Well that's enough to thoroughly confuse anyone!

There are two other species of high contrast Tatia that this species might be, or might be affiliated with and I've not done the homework to figure out which and so I've not updated the site.

You're talking about T. melanoleuca and T. carolae right? For me it differs in enough aspects from both to be considered different. From T. melanoleuca the caudal fin pigmentation mainly, and also the degree of pigmentation on the lateral surfaces and the dorsal spine. From T. carolae the main difference is again the ventral extent of the lateral pigmentation, and also the caudal pigmentation, but more tellingly it lacks the very clear unpigmented area over a considerably enlarged third nuchal plate.

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 08 May 2015, 18:27

Well I'm glad thats been cleared up (a little bit anyways).

Besides Dicrossus filamentosus, what other Dwarf cichlids are there? I was looking at apistograms, can somebody state what species are found in the Atabapo?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 09 May 2015, 02:30

Besides Dicrossus filamentosus, what other Dwarf cichlids are there? I was looking at apistograms, can somebody state what species are found in the Atabapo?

As I said before, first you need to work out which species of the Tatia we are talking about. Thanks to Jools we now know that both are likely to come in via Colombia, so your dealer could be getting either of the two species. Does he/she even have this fish in stock, or are they ordering them in especially for you? I guess you won't know what species they are until they arrive.

Not that I think it matters in the slightest. Both are cool fish, and should have similar care requirements, although the Atabapo fish may require soft water (at the very least not stupidly hard water). In fact, if you want to keep any dwarf cichlid from those kind of rivers you will need to provide soft water for them.

Regarding which cichlid ... Depends what's available, right? If you can't buy it, you can't have it in your tank. I had a quick Google and looked on Aquabid. Doesn't look like many of the apistos from the area are particularly common in the trade (Apistogramma iniridae might be available).

But I always ask myself this when the subject of biotope aquaria comes up ... what's the point? (sorry if I sound like a broken record). You don't have to mimic an environment exactly to make a fish happy. Of course you have to abide by some fundamental rules, but really it's not that important to get it perfect. It seems you want plants in the tank, but are torn about "biotope correctness". Well, the tatias aren't going to give a crap about plants or no plants. They are active, open water swimmers, so will need a good amount of space and won't appreciate a ton of foliage, but a couple of amazon swords or anubias is fine. Your dealer is wrong to say there are no plants in these blackwater rivers. Sure, there aren't many true aquatic plants, but there are lots of plants nonetheless. See below. It might not be so clear, but around the canoes are loads of grasses and herbs in and under the water. As the water rises the rest of the grassy area will be inundated. There were cardinal tetras swimming around among these plants. It really is part of their habitat. There are also clearwater streams feeding immediately into the blackwater rivers that are stuffed full of true aquatic plants.

Now the tatias here will surely move into these shallow grassy areas to feed on insects at night, but in the day they will head to deeper water and lodge themselves in a log or under a rock. So what is the biotope in this case? Planted tank, or tank full of wood?

Post by **Shane** » 09 May 2015, 13:28

Looks like a wet season versus dry season decision. A particular biotope is not only defined by place, but also time. Most collecting (commercial and by hobbyist) happens in the high dry season so the biotope conditions reported, especially the water's chemical composition and temperature, are at an extreme. Yes in the high dry season the Atabapo is shallow, hot, and lacks aquatic vegetation. In the high wet season it overflows its banks and submerses many 1,000 acres. Many fish move into these inundated areas, exploit new foods, and spawn. Water temperatures are cooler, tds levels fall, and the O2 level rises from the rain and increased current.
Basically you can have it either way by choosing not only the place your biotope replicates, but also the time of the year it replicates.
-Shane

Orinocensis1 · Post by **Orinocensis1** » 11 May 2015, 21:46

You guys seem to know about these species of wood cat so I'm gonna throw this out there.. I got x6 from Jeff Rapps and these seem to be way more black then the typical T. Musaica. Any thoughts? Is this the true Musaica? I don't have a recent pic, this is from the day they arrived really skinny they put on a good amount of girth and are around 1.5" now. Just wanted to know your thoughts thanks in advance

Joe

Orinocensis1 · Post by **Orinocensis1** » 11 May 2015, 21:47

Here's a better pic from jeffs website.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 11 May 2015, 22:12

Is this the true Musaica?

It most certainly is. Cool!

Get some good pictures. I'm sure Jools will want to add them to the site.

Orinocensis1 · Post by **Orinocensis1** » 12 May 2015, 02:34

Thanks racoll! Any reason why these seem to have a lot more black then white? Could it be collection point? Or could the fish just be young?

Orinocensis1 · Post by **Orinocensis1** » 12 May 2015, 02:35

Also do you remember off hand what the water temp was of the area you were collecting them? Thanks again

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 12 May 2015, 03:08

Any reason why these seem to have a lot more black then white? Could it be collection point? Or could the fish just be young?

It's because this is what the real Tatia musaica looks like! This is a species from the Rio Atabapo and upper Orinoco area in Venezuela/Colombia.

All the ones in the cat-elog are an undescribed, but similar species from the Rio Nhamundá, Brazil. This is an Amazon tributary a long way away from the Orinoco. Take a look at the map here: http://www.gbif.org/species/5961334.

Also do you remember off hand what the water temp was of the area you were collecting them? Thanks again

So, I only collected the Brazilian species, so I cannot say for sure the requirements of the Venezuelan one you have. The georeferenced records I have seen seems to indicate that they have been caught in both the main river and the smaller side creeks. Perhaps about 27C would be a good starting point temperature.

Orinocensis1 · Post by **Orinocensis1** » 12 May 2015, 03:27

Awesome! I think I have only 1 female out of them 6. I would love to attempt to spawn them but I haven't worked with wood cats before so if anyone has any suggestions I would really appreciate it! Racoll, thanks so much for all your help!

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 12 May 2015, 05:14

Thanks guys, I think that this is SLOWLY beginning to come together. thank you very much shane! I lost track of time (Rim shot), I never considered that part of making a biotype!

Alright so heres the plan so far....

Tank: 26 gallon Bowfront or 29 gallon wide.... to be continued...

Layout materials:

ADA Yamaya stone (very nice river stone look and texture)

ADA Redmoor Root ( pieces with lots of tangling branches and crevices of course)

ADA LA PLATA sand

Savu pods

Plants:

Echinodorus quadricostatus

Vesicularia dubyana

Livestock: 5-6 Tatia musiaca (hopefully), 3 Synaptolaemus latofasciatus, 3 Dicrossus filamentosus

what do you guys think? Also do you guys think I could pass oak leaves as south american? any better Ideas for leaf littler let me know!

dw1305 · Post by **dw1305** » 12 May 2015, 13:03

Hi all,

3 Synaptolaemus latofasciatus

I've never kept these, but I would worry about them. Could you find a smaller biotope alternative?

Also do you guys think I could pass oak leaves as south american? any better Ideas for leaf littler let me know!

Magnolia grandiflora leaves are widely available for Dart Frog vivaria etc would look closer.

In the wild a lot of tree will be Palms, and nearly all the dicotyledonous trees will have the same leaf morphology, basically a glossy oval leaf with a drip-tip <http://www.rainfor.org/upload/publicati ... 12.NEW.pdf>.

cheers Darrel

catfishchaos · Post by **catfishchaos** » 13 May 2015, 03:50

Thanks for all the replies and help guys! Also great to see the true T.musiaca!

I had concerns about those fish as well and have decided best to go with a characin- I'm thinking Carnegiella strigata because it is from the Orinico, Dwell at the top so they will not bother the Dicrossus but still act as dithers. There dietary needs are very similar to the that of the Tatia so they seem to fit perfectly. Luckily there are a couple dart frog breeders up here so hopefully sourcing those magnolia leaves will not be to much trouble. thank you for that link. Im working up the scape (Drawings and diagrams) but its all coming together one shard at a time.

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