The hybrid Syno thread

All posts regarding the care and breeding of catfishes from Africa.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

kvnbyl wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:26 am
keeping any live animal captive, to some degree, is cruel no matter how you try to justify it.
concrete is not living no matter how you many words you move round and i can't see how that even came up :-J
pulling them out of a stream to transport them 4000 miles away to "captive" breed them is certainly not moral in any sense of the word
we don't breed them. we provide conditions similar to nature and they take care of the rest
there's nothing special glorious or special about it, it's the way things are supposed to be
they weren't put here for us to exploit or to "captive" breed they were there to live out their life that's irrefutable
Haven't seen many " hellish" streams lately but i guess you know more about that i do
hybrid fish were designed to be kept in a tank, that is why they were created, they've never known freedom
if you don't like them don't keep them but don't use 16 paragraphs to say you don't like them, just say it
any comparison to Frankenstein is ludicrous and so is this discussion, you took it way out of what was being talked about and dragged "science" into it to try and justify what in the end can't be justified, namely man's attitude that everything here for his use or disposal.
I think you are a PETA. Why do you keep fish?

IMHO all in nature is for our use and study so we use it wisely.

If not, by this logic, stop breathing now.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Lycosid »

kvnbyl wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:26 am
keeping any live animal captive, to some degree, is cruel no matter how you try to justify it.
The basis for this ethical statement appears to be because you said so. Again, this idea seems to be based on the idea that freedom is of inherent value, which I disagree with.
kvnbyl wrote:concrete is not living no matter how you many words you move round and i can't see how that even came up :-J
You never said that something had to be alive to be natural. That's why it came up - your definition of "natural" doesn't make any sense.
kvnbyl wrote:pulling them out of a stream to transport them 4000 miles away to "captive" breed them is certainly not moral in any sense of the word
I'm not sure you understand how ethical debates work. See, you're supposed to start from some shared premise, like "torturing animals is bad" and work from that shared premise, via logic, to your end goal. Instead you're just stating your end statement with additional superlatives.

So, to be clear, in the ethical system I work under pulling fish out of a stream to transport them 4,000 miles away to captive breed them is not only not immoral, it is a positive moral good under certain circumstances. For instance, the maintenance of captive, breeding populations of Cyprinodon diabolis is a moral good.
kvnbyl wrote:we don't breed them. we provide conditions similar to nature and they take care of the rest
Are you objecting to the term "captive breeding"? We can argue about the nature of language if you want, but I'm a descriptivist not a prescriptivist and so I think you'll just hate that.
kvnbyl wrote:they weren't put here for us to exploit or to "captive" breed they were there to live out their life that's irrefutable
It is empirically demonstrable that this claim is not irrefutable. Watch: you're wrong.
kvnbyl wrote:Haven't seen many " hellish" streams lately but i guess you know more about that i do
Streams aren't hellish to you because you're a large mammal. Try being snack-size for all the local residents. I'm going to guess that being a wild fish in a stream with a normal predator population is like living in a war-torn country where atrocities against civilians are commonplace.
kvnbyl wrote:hybrid fish were designed to be kept in a tank, that is why they were created, they've never known freedom
I reject the premise that freedom is of inherent value to fish. This premise must be demonstrated, not asserted. Furthermore, captive-bred individuals from wild strains have also never known freedom, and so the utility of this argument is limited.
kvnbyl wrote:if you don't like them don't keep them but don't use 16 paragraphs to say you don't like them, just say it
Stylistic preference. One that I don't share.
kvnbyl wrote:any comparison to Frankenstein is ludicrous and so is this discussion you took it way out of what was being talked about and dragged "science" into it to try and justify what in the end can't be justified, namely man's attitude that everything here for his use or disposal.
Honestly, this whole bit makes me wonder if you're just having trouble understanding what's being said. You're really freaking out about the Frankenstein thing, but that's such a standard way to say something alive is unnatural that I can't figure out why. I actually just checked your location to make sure this isn't some issue with US slang, but no, you're from a state I lived in for more than a decade, and I definitely am familiar with the Frankenstein thing. Then you say I dragged science (with scare-quotes) into this to try and justify something, but I actually mostly just ripped on your argument from the perspective of moral philosophy. Just because I'm a biologist doesn't mean I don't have hobbies, like reading philosophy.

As it happens, I have a relatively nuanced view which does not equate to "everything here for his use or disposal", but last time I wrote it out it was six pages long, and you've expressed your dislike of reading long arguments.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by kvnbyl »

wouldn't want to be any of your pets, they are there for your use, whatever that might be? that's what it sounds like to me

you still missed the point about pulling fish out of the wild. research is one thing, that's not what i am talking about and you know that's not it. how many fish are needed to find out which species they are, 2?

so just decimating wild populations is ok? so that no one will have to make due with fish that are bred specifically for the aquarium trade?

i would guess the only reason more wild populations are not decimated is that man figures out a way to force them to reproduce.

maybe just selling the ones that are abundant in the wild / populations that can easily bounce back night be a but more ethical. but that's would be with man's hand in again, it so none of that, let them go extinct, right?

it's about man's whim to have pretty fish in the living room or in the yard, screw what it does to the environment. how many people that the time to actually research what they have? and before you jump all over that i'm not talking about most of the people here but, you know, how many people here point out their species wild location ona map?

and the point one more time, if you can stop preaching for a minute is that Frankenstein was never alive how can you keep saying you don't get it? might be standard in academia which you have to be in, there's no one else who can split hairs quite the same way and use semantics as a defense, but it doesn't make any sense since Frankenstein was never alive and the fish are, that's my issue.

"To me, the line is clear. If it is made by nature / God, without interference of man, it is valid and worth keeping and studying, even naturally occurring hybrids." how noble that you can say this but people still exploit living creatures. a zoo is a zoo and there are plenty of wet ones.

fish, Without interference of man? man is involved in the fish trade every which way from the beginning, how do you think most of them are bred?. how do they get here?
captive breeding programs maybe? you ensure all your purchased fish are "all natural" before you purchase? wouldn't want one that wasn't 100% natural even if it had a longer life, was more resistant to disease, could live in a wider range of ph.

so, this part makes no sense whatsoever. if they were in a tank and you were told they were naturally occurring you would buy them. but if not, you wouldn't? and what if it happened you were mistaken? or just weren't told? put them down? must be nice to be on that high a horse!

so V is saying what about people / animals conceived with the help of man? no good ? man is involved in the reproduction of countless organisms including himself, so none of them are any good? man pulls them out of their natural settings but that's ok?. that's what the quotes seem to say. i say the statement is flawed.. and really arrogant

a lot of people use captive animals to make a living, a lot of people besides me would have a problem. just because it happens to be your stock in trades, without a doubt makes it what, the word of god? don't think so. more like man's arrogance, the same arrogance that in an admittedly different form that is going to bring this planes to it's knees and it some of what i read is true. has a better than fair chance of ending the human race

it's that ego, you know, that " all this is mine to do with as i please" way of thinking, everything was put here for me (you), right)?

also, you can't "be" a peta, it's an organization not a person. you can be a member but i'm not. I dont' agree with all of PETA's methods but i think their ambitions are noble.

if you are going to insult me at least get it right

the both of you seem to feel that any / all creatures on the planet where put there for your use / exploitation, could you be any more arrogant?
doubt it.

and once more, this whole thing started because i had an issue with living creatures being compared with a creature from a horror novel (not a good one by the way, but you probably disagree with that too,

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by kvnbyl »

i'm going for more spine surgery but when (more like if at this point)i am able to function again, we can keep this up? this is fun!

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

wouldn't want to be any of your pets, they are there for your use, whatever that might be? that's what it sounds like to me

*****For example, I think looking at them in the wild and admiring them even from afar falls under making use of them. There are many ethical ways to use what nature shows us and gives us. Surely, there is no good thing that can't be spoiled.

you still missed the point about pulling fish out of the wild. research is one thing, that's not what i am talking about and you know that's not it. how many fish are needed to find out which species they are, 2?

*****I think you jumped into too many arguments that are too wide too early. It seems we lost track of context that this is all about hybrid syno versus genuine syno in the ornamental fish trade and hobby. That's all.

so just decimating wild populations is ok?

*****It is not ok.

so that no one will have to make due with fish that are bred specifically for the aquarium trade?

*****Genuine species bred naturally in captivity are ok by me.

i would guess the only reason more wild populations are not decimated is that man figures out a way to force them to reproduce.

*****IDK how many are decimated by harvesting for ornamental trade. I think most or all, that are decimated, are decimated by commercial fishing industry, industrial and agricultural runoff and pollution, and climate change.

maybe just selling the ones that are abundant in the wild / populations that can easily bounce back night be a but more ethical. but that's would be with man's hand in again, it so none of that, let them go extinct, right?

*****See below. About the man's hand. You are taking words and sentences out of context and making unneeded and uncalled for dire statements based on that.

it's about man's whim to have pretty fish in the living room or in the yard, screw what it does to the environment. how many people that the time to actually research what they have? and before you jump all over that i'm not talking about most of the people here but, you know, how many people here point out their species wild location ona map?

*****Some may have this whim and if it not illegal, no one can take their freedom to do so yet. We as a responsible fish keeping community I think are called to change that, so that people keep fish humanely and responsibly. Again, this is all very far from the context. We can't discuss all these things at the same time and remain sensible.

and the point one more time, if you can stop preaching for a minute is that Frankenstein was never alive how can you keep saying you don't get it? might be standard in academia which you have to be in, there's no one else who can split hairs quite the same way and use semantics as a defense, but it doesn't make any sense since Frankenstein was never alive and the fish are, that's my issue.

*****Ok. I'll make an effort to use "man made or unnatural" every urge I get to say F.

"To me, the line is clear. If it is made by nature / God, without interference of man, it is valid and worth keeping and studying, even naturally occurring hybrids." how noble that you can say this but people still exploit living creatures. a zoo is a zoo and there are plenty of wet ones.

*****IMHO there is nothing inherently wrong with zoos and aquariums. But again, this is too far from the topic, I think.

fish, Without interference of man? man is involved in the fish trade every which way from the beginning, how do you think most of them are bred?. how do they get here?
captive breeding programs maybe? you ensure all your purchased fish are "all natural" before you purchase? wouldn't want one that wasn't 100% natural even if it had a longer life, was more resistant to disease, could live in a wider range of ph.

*****My statement was made in the context of hybrid syno versus genuine syno. I am not talking about the whole world and all that lives in it and how it lives and how it must live.

so, this part makes no sense whatsoever.

*****I understand why. If there is my fault that I was too curt, I apologize. But mainly I am supposing this is because you appear to think of ten things at a time and freely leave the context somewhere down there in the dust behind an iron curtain of a myriad of words.

if they were in a tank and you were told they were naturally occurring you would buy them. but if not, you wouldn't? and what if it happened you were mistaken? or just weren't told? put them down? must be nice to be on that high a horse!

*****I think this needs no addressing now given the above going. Let's get back to earth from the clouds. I will not buy a hybrid syno. I would buy a genuine syno, especially if I knew that they were bred humanely and naturally. Mostly this is not knowable though. So we can safely skip this part, I think.

so V is saying what about people / animals conceived with the help of man? no good ? man is involved in the reproduction of countless organisms including himself, so none of them are any good? man pulls them out of their natural settings but that's ok?. that's what the quotes seem to say. i say the statement is flawed.. and really arrogant

*****Out of context. And in the clouds again. IMHO.

a lot of people use captive animals to make a living, a lot of people besides me would have a problem. just because it happens to be your stock in trades, without a doubt makes it what, the word of god? don't think so. more like man's arrogance, the same arrogance that in an admittedly different form that is going to bring this planes to it's knees and it some of what i read is true. has a better than fair chance of ending the human race

*****Clouds.

it's that ego, you know, that " all this is mine to do with as i please" way of thinking, everything was put here for me (you), right)?

*****IDK about you and Lycosid, but I was speaking of the humankind because we climbed so high so quick in our discussion, nothing less would do. Yes, I believe everything in the Universe was made for man, with man in mind, for man to use and lord over. Man named everything because he saw it for what it was. But then man sinned and things got bad from there. The primary purpose of the creation remains though because it is true aka reality. For me. Again, my belief.

also, you can't "be" a peta, it's an organization not a person. you can be a member but i'm not. I dont' agree with all of PETA's methods but i think their ambitions are noble.

*****Insert "person" after "PETA" if you wish. What you speak of are extremist views by my book. But then again, this is way up high in the clouds...

if you are going to insult me at least get it right

*****Far be it from me to want to insult you. Yet, I am but a man of modest means, including brain.

the both of you seem to feel that any / all creatures on the planet where put there for your use / exploitation, could you be any more arrogant?
doubt it.

*****See above. I think if we clarified what we mean by use and exploitation, there'd be no opposition here. Yet, again, clouds...

and once more, this whole thing started because i had an issue with living creatures being compared with a creature from a horror novel (not a good one by the way, but you probably disagree with that too,

*****For the safety of my aesthetic tastes, I must state I am not a fan of the horror genre at all. If all you are hung up is semantics, I should have restated the same thing but used the word "unnatural" or man-made" and you would be fine then. I think.
kvnbyl wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:03 pm
i'm going for more spine surgery but when (more like if at this point)i am able to function again, we can keep this up? this is fun!
Perhaps for you. Not for me. I am not a sadomasochist. Yet, being verbally slapped on the left and right cheek is good for my overinflated ego. I am dubious there is anything left to say, except good luck with the surgery. I'll pray for you.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Jools »

I think it would be good to stop, reflect and perhaps use this (my) post as recognition that this is a divisive issue and we have probably raised and responded to most if not all angles. The post would benefit from more voices and, moreover, more posts of hybrids encountered as one thing is certain, they are here for the long term.

Cheers,

Jools

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by kvnbyl »

thanks but no need for prayers, i don't believe in a god that would allow people and animals to be used and abused by the hundreds of thousand (for fish and animals in the hundreds of millions)

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by racoll »

Maybe lets talk about something less divisive, maybe gun control or Brexit? :-p

I think kvnbyl illustrates a point that morals/ethics are a constantly shifting continuum, and every person will draw their own blurred lines somewhere.

Personally, I support the sustainable trade in wild fish because it places a monetary value on intact ecosystems, and provides a diversity of income for people in some poor parts of the world. Plus the fish are better.

I don't care much for selectively bred fish, but I don't disapprove of them. I do draw the line at traits that seem to impair the fish though, such as the balloon varieties.

I also draw the line at gratuitous interspecific hybridisation, especially by hormone injection, and artificially dying fishes. I have stronger feelings about this than the GM GloFish, actually.

Some of these positions might seem inconsistent, but I think everyone's priorities inherently are.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by jd_7655 »

I posting a link to youtube of some synodontis. Are these hybrids in the video? I have some that look identical.

I have 2 groups of lucipinnis. Ones like in the video have very clean defined spots and the other group I have has more blotchy spotting.

Are the these lucipinnis in the video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRRSq6MFjY

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by bekateen »

jd_7655 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:26 am
I posting a link to youtube of some synodontis. Are these hybrids in the video? I have some that look identical.

I have 2 groups of lucipinnis. Ones like in the video have very clean defined spots and the other group I have has more blotchy spotting.

Are the these lucipinnis in the video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRRSq6MFjY


Hi jd_7655,

Based on all the white trim visible on the dorsal and ventral margins of the caudal peduncle, I seriously doubt your fish are Synodontis lucipinnis. Actually, that coloration is reminiscent of the colors on the hybrid shown in this post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28659&start=120#p197823. (note, head shape is all different, but I'm just looking at colors on caudal peduncle and tail).

I could be wrong. @birger?

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by jd_7655 »

OK Thanks Eric

These hybrids are tricky to spot. It takes a real keen eye to notice those small little differences. I got fooled on some syno's a year ago. I have two groups of syno's. One I know is lucipinnis for sure. But this new group I thought might have been a different strain from the lake. Maybe a different catching location or something. One thing that through me off was they're super aggressive. They have beautiful markings and color. I'm just mad I wasted money on hybrids. I was hoping long term I could breed them. I still have the non hybrids to raise. These hybrids flooding the hobby are getting to be a pain the rear.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Rayavidas »

Quite difficult to distinguish, I couldnt say which one is hybrid, only for experts in cat fish

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Birger »

tTo be honest my first thought was polli whites with the fish in the recent video.Unless the color was played with a bit.But are probably just a version of lucipinnis.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Goodroad »

New to synodontis fever. Bought 11 fish
6 angelicus
3 scribbled I think it’s #3 hybrid as per ur log
2 gold nigrita which I think your log doesn’t have yet??

Thank you for the discussion
For me it’s important... fairness and transparency.
The morality of the whole thing has already been thrown out of the window. I just want to know what it is I’m buying in the future...

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Goodroad »

Do people mention names of dealers and or breeders in this forum? Or anonymity is respected?

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Goodroad »

This weekend I will be getting synodontis pantherinus
I bought it cuz I want to see how they look like and basically know what they are....I’ll post a picture wen I get it this weekend

Attached is picture of fish I got ..
Sold as pantherinus..
I looked in the net and I don’t see it as such
Any comments or help please
Attachments
Cat in the middle of gold and scribbled
Cat in the middle of gold and scribbled
Last edited by Goodroad on Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by bekateen »

Goodroad wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:14 am
Do people mention names of dealers and or breeders in this forum? Or anonymity is respected?
In this forum mentioning a source is okay, I think, as long as it's respectful and not bashing.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by bekateen »

Goodroad wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:12 am
2 gold nigrita which I think your log doesn’t have yet??
I think gold nigrita are a natural color variant, but I'm not 100% sure. That would explain why you're not seeing them in this thread, which is only about hybrids.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Welcome to the Planet! I'd suggest creating your own thread on your syno collection. I think it is warranted and more sensible than having it here, even if for your sake alone as you will get more attention and feedback, when needed, that way. You can always come back to this thread to discuss those of your synos who are hybrids or potentially hybrids. Threads must stay on topic per forum rules.

I am excited and look forward to reading about your syno adventures and enjoying the visuals too.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Birger »

I think gold nigrita are a natural color variant, but I'm not 100% sure. That would explain why you're not seeing them in this thread, which is only about hybrids.
As far as I know they are a farm made color variant.

Birger

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