Tall tank-cats possible?

[L number Banana]

Hi, I'm very new to 'real' aquariums and love the whole catfish family. I'm getting a tall tank for B-day soon and would love to be able to have cats of some kind. I'm worried that I may not be able to house them properly in this tank. I adore all the L number cats but may have to keep dreaming for a while. The tank will have banana plants, driftwood and a very sculpted back wall with lots of hidey holes etc. Everything else is still open.
The tank is 30" tall and the footprint is 24" long and 12" wide. I've looked through the listings and pictures and it's all a jumble at this point. It seems that all the ones I found and set my heart on are really difficult to find. Is there any black/white/spotted/striped etc cat-types that will stay small enough for this size? If I can find one that will be happy in this size, I can then find all the bits/fish that will be suitable. My background is filterless, aerated planted tanks so I've got a lot to learn before I keep any cats. May have to wait for my next tank?


The search feature is great but some of my newbie questions are too general for it to work. Is there a link/article to help me understand the differences between the otos, cory, plecos, locar etc etc -I'm confused

Any help, tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks from a newbie

[MatsP]

A tall tank is definitely not the BEST CHOICE for catfish, as most catfish tend to live at the bottom rather than in the water-column itself.

That's not to say that there isn't a good candidate of catfish for your tank. Just that the choice is smaller than if your tank was a bigger base-area.

As to some guidance to different catfish:

Loricariidae

is the family of plecos, otos and most other "suckermouth catfish". Many people think these fish are all eating algae because they have a suckermouth. That is untrue, and sucker-mouths (all categories, not just catfish) have that shape mouth mainly to be able to live in fast-flowing water - they suck onto stones and other surfaces and can stay in place with much less use of the fins than if they didn't have a sucker-mouth. Typical example:

Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus

.

Callichthyidae

is the family of corys. They are mainly bottom feeders that dig into the substrate to find small particles of food in nature it would be a lot of insect larvae, small crustaceans and such. Typical example:

Corydoras sterbai

.

Doradidae

(sorry, that link doesn't work well) holds a few commonly available fish in the trade, such as

Platydoras armatulus

.

Pimelodidae

holds some other popular fish, such as

Pimelodus pictus

Not sure what a "locar" is.

A note on size: You should keep to fish that doesn't grow beyond 6" or so - aside from Callichtyidae, all of the families listed contain fish that can EASILY reach beyond 6".


--
Mats



[mod edit - fixed the spelling on Callichthyidae - Jools]

[L number Banana]

Thanks Mats, you've made my day!
Locar should have read 'Loricar', oops..
Your descriptions are very helpful. I'll start going though the lists for sizes. 6" is much bigger than I had in mind but I've found a few that say the average size is smaller. This one is rather incredible: Panaque sp. (L306) Maybe I'm going about this backwards, I'll ask my LFS which they can get and maybe start the sizing/eliminating process from there.

All of your links show some really wonderful fish, thanks. I'm prone to understocking but I don't want to have a lonely fish. The pims link said groups are better, would that be one male, a few females if the eventual size is 3 - 5 inches? Can a pim like the one in your link live in the same tank as a small Loricariidae if they had their own corner/territory?

I'd like to use some Flourite substrate for the plants and some sand. What should I worry about with regards to the barbels of catfish? Would the cory-cats dig too much?

Can any of these cats live in a less than vigorous current? Strong enough to move all the water but not uproot the plants?

So much to learn, how exciting! Sorry for all the questions but it's nice to get a basic understanding before I start searching through all the fish one by one.
Thank a bunch!

[MatsP]

As far as I'm aware, there is no easy way to determine the sex of P. pictus - in fact, I'd expect the only way would be to cut them open and look at "the bits inside" to find out [at least until someone figures out a better way] - so just "five of those from that tank" would be the right answer. However, I'm not entirely sure they are suitable for your tank - they are fairly active fish, and five of them would be quite a few in such a small footprint tank.

I don't believe I've ever seen a live L306 - but that could be because I'm looking in the wrong place rather than they aren't available. But certainly, knowing what your LFS can get will reduce the list of candidates by a huge amount. Of course, that will vary from week to week.

I would also make sure that your tank is nicely up and running before you put exotic plecos or corys in there - the ones you can get in any LFS for $5 or less are fine to stick in a newly set up tank - the $50 or so fish that are fairly rare in the trade deserves to get into a tank that is well established and settled in - I'd say about 6 months or so of up and running [with no problems - if your tank isn't "working right", then you obviously need to sort that out that BEFORE you start counting down the days of your 6 months "running in" period].

Many of the Loricariidae come from strong current rivers, but are fine in low current setup - as long as the water is reasonably well oxygenated, it is fine. Loricariidae are the only ones that really LIKE strong currents. The others do not necessarily need much current, for example Corys are definitely not "high current" fish - they do not like strong water movement.

A final not on "well oxygenated": If you use CO2 to make your plants grow, be aware that this will reduce the water's capacity to hold oxygen AND make the fish NEED more oxygen in the water....

--
Mats

[Birger]

Do not leave out the synodontis, a shoal of

Synodontis nigriventris

would do well in this tank...and it gives you a whole new family to look at, again as mats pointed out be aware of sizes.

[MatsP]

Do not leave out the synodontis, a shoal of

Synodontis nigriventris

would do well in this tank...and it gives you a whole new family to look at, again as mats pointed out be aware of sizes.

Sorry, whilst I was writing it, I thought "Must also add

Synodontis

", but in the process of checking the links and writing it down, I missed it out. Yes, there are some really nice fishes in the Synodontis group - they are hardy fish [but still, I wouldn't put anything "expensive" in the tank until it is WELL established]. I have only recently started my collection of Synodontis, but the two species I have are real characters - and you could probably get away with a

Synodontis flavitaeniata

for example, as well as the S. nigriventris suggested above.

--
Mats

[Richard B]

For my twopenneth, i'd suggest a shoal of either

Hyalobagrus flavus

,

Aspidoras pauciradiatus

,

Otocinclus vittatus

, or

Kryptopterus minor

& maybe a few

Microsynodontis batesii

, or

Farlowella vittata

. There is a good choice of cats but it'll depend on your preference, availability & budget. I also don't recall ever seeing L306 but maybe i wasn't payin attention

[L number Banana]

Thanks so much for all the input, very helpful!

I'll be taking a long time to get things right before I introduce any fish, I can help cycle with some danios from my plant tank (temporarily) but since I'm still learning, I'll take my time. I will be using the DIY co2 so the oxygen balance will take a long time to get just right. Also, I don't usually use filters so that will take a while to get used to as well.

My LFS guy mentioned the Farlowella vittata right of the bat when I ordered the tank so I'll be looking into them too. Ordered the size to fit the spot, house renovations for a larger tank aren't in the budget yet

I like the idea of shoals of little guys and most of the ones suggested say that they're peaceful and okay with other little fish. I especially like the Synodontis nigriventris and the background can be sculpted with lots of overhangs, tunnels etc.

I guess my little L guy is probably out if no one here has seen it.

Thanks again and I'll add the suggestions to my list to check for availability. My LFS guy has tons of cats of different kinds but is really good at not selling them to people with unsuitable tanks. He encouraged me to bring in a want-list so your suggestions will help so I don't hog the staff. I'll keep reading to get a better handle on the water/food requirements etc.

This catfishing will get addictive
Thanks again, you guys are great.

[Richard B]

Also, I don't usually use filters so that will take a while to get used to as well.

Going without filters can be done but is tricky with any real level of fish included - that said there is such a variety of different filters now, it is worth looking into for peace of mind & the benefit of the livestock.

[Birger]

I especially like the Synodontis nigriventris and the background can be sculpted with lots of overhangs, tunnels etc.

Yeah now your talking....they will also sit under the leaves of broad leaved plants, such as Anubias barterii.

There have been lots of good other suggestions as well though.

I guess my little L guy is probably out if no one here has seen it.

There are a few registered keepers of L306 so they are out there but probably tough to find.

[L number Banana]

Wrt Synodontis nigriventris,

Yeah now your talking....they will also sit under the leaves of broad leaved plants, such as Anubias barterii.

Sounds wonderful, the banana plants have nice huge leaves too. I still have to look up the lighting issues re the 30" deep tank. I may have to build little plant shelves/pockets into my background to give some of them more lighting. I have some roots/wood that look like they would keep this cat happy. Do they need wood? I have some roofing slate too? I could watch my fish while laying on the floor looking up. Cool.

With regards to the registered keepers: Do these people sell to the trade only, trade with other specialists or just do their thing more for research? It would be nice to be able to buy directly from an expert in a certain species but I imagine the paperwork/shipping issues must be complicated. I noticed there are registered keepers of L260 and L270 as well, hmm. Good thing I don't have room for another tank yet...

Going without filters can be done but is tricky with any real level of fish included - that said there is such a variety of different filters now, it is worth looking into for peace of mind & the benefit of the livestock.

My other tanks are el naturel with lots of fish but they have algae specialists, shrimps and tons of plants. My sailfins had babies on Christmas so I bought a nitrite test just to keep an eye on the...um..fish waste. The kit showed almost clear with just a wee hint of pink. So, being 'pro-active', I gave the tank a quick clean and yes, you probably guessed it.. the nitrites shot up! Twit... Chopped through the pond ice, got some happy water and the problem is fixed but let's just say I'd rather not learn by experiences like that.

I'll be trying a filter for this tank. Any suggestions that are a wee bit on the inexpensive side? Or maybe low maintenance side? I use a DIY bio filter (adam's filter) for my outdoor ponds but can't get my brain around trying this inside. I'll have to cruise around looking at tank pictures to figure out how to make the hoses etc disappear. Don't want to stuff too much into the backdrop

[MatsP]

Registered keepers are just members of this forum that have clicked on "add this species to My Cats" on the respective Cat-eLog page. They are any kind of person that own the fish on that page [or has at some point owned]. I doubt there are many commercial traders in the lists.

There are people here who sell (surplus) fish - look in the For Sale/Wanted section. There are also people who know people who have fish for sale.

Good thing I don't have room for another tank yet...

How can that be a good thing ;)

--
Mats

[L number Banana]

Hi MatsP,

Thanks for the info wrt registered keepers. Not quite ready for the for sale page but someday..

As far as the "good thing I don't have room for another tank" bit, I'd be too broke to set up the tank I'm about to receive

I found the advanced search page and it's wonderful, narrowed my list down big time. Going filter searching today on the net. That will probably spawn a whole new set of questions.

Can't wait to someday post pics so everyone can see how much they've helped.
Cheers!

[Chrysichthys]

Do not leave out the synodontis, a shoal of

Synodontis nigriventris

would do well in this tank...and it gives you a whole new family to look at, again as mats pointed out be aware of sizes.

I think nigriventris would be the ideal thing. The tall tank will encourage them to swim inverted, as long as you have floating bark or floating plants as surface cover. I want to set up a tank like that if I ever get the chance.

[Jools]

I'm seriously considering a shoal of USD cats with a bunch of

Pareutropius debauwi

cats for my new (tall, 28") show tank. However as it is longer, I was also thinking of some

Sturisoma

. However, it might just end of with discus and hot water

Ancistrus

. Anyway, I just wanted to suggest debawis or just even a shoal of any one of the suitably sized

Pseudeutropius

.

Jools

[Mod edit: Put cat-elog link in for the Debawi cats, as it took me a couple of attempts to actually find them --Mats]

[L number Banana]

Hi Jools,
I was hoping you would chime in with an idea, I like your hot anubias tank. I also like the "show tank" description better than 'tall tank'.

I was looking at both the Pseudeutropius but I'm not sure about the low light needs and the flow rate. Still learning about soft/hard water etc as well.

I think I'll be going with the USD cats and see what bottom guys are available to me and compatible. Hopefully some type of Ancistrus. Loricariidae list is down to 50ish and still subject to availability. Mochokidae same. I've found quite a few really tiny cats and have taken a liking to them too. Kid in a candy shop!

For the USD cats, what sort of numbers would you recommend?

Do you think it would be okay to stretch the size issue to be able to have a twiggy/whiptail type cat if they're available? They seem to not present the same size issues as the others because they're so skinny. The Sturisoma in your reply don't all have the sizes listed. The Farlowella vittata is available but it doesn't say if they like to be kept with buddies or not? If one writer called them 'furniture', so I guess they may not be overly territorial and I could keep a couple or three?

A quick 'silly' question: what would be considered hot water tank/fish?

Thanks!

[Birger]

For the USD cats, what sort of numbers would you recommend?

I have kept ten in a tank this size without any trouble, showed good growth but most of the time they were alone. You could keep a group of six to 10 and combine them with one or two others of course depending on what they were.

A good fish to combine them with is the mentioned

Pareutropius buffei

(debauwi cat) but IMO a 24 inch long tank is too short for these when they really get rippin around, kinda cramps their style, I would not recommend them in a tank under 36" and they especially do much better in a shoal of at least 6 or 7.

I have not really kept any whiptail types but would think a pair or trio of farlowella would be a good combo given their peaceful nature and I do not think the USD cats would bother with them...unless you are trying to stick to a more natural biotope as they come from different continents.

Birger

[L number Banana]

Hi Birger,

I was looking at Synodontis contractus and Synodontis nigriventris as the main guys but I'll have to see which my LFS can get. I like them both and the conditions seem to be okay for a beginner.

The farlowella is in the running but I keep flipping back to one called Synodontis lucipinnis. Sizes are about the same as the USD cats but I don't know if all three could live happily in one tank. Synodontis lucipinnis may be a bit more boisterous?

I was looking at Panaque sp. aff. maccus but there little info so I'm guessing it's hard to get. Still in the process of trying to find info on these types to see if there's on that could stay small and live with the USD cats. This one looks small and peacefull too: Parotocinclus maculicauda. The prettiest one that fits the peaceful bill is this one: Otocinclus cocama, Zebra Oto and I think I may have seen it at my LFS.

How do I provide the quick links? I'm sure it would make my posts easier for anyone who wants to look at the fish

You mentioned a biotope, that's the whole reason I'm looking at cats to begin with! I'm not ready to go that route yet but I saw so many cats in a book I just bought called "The Biotope Aquarium" and they have a set-up for Rio Araquari in Northern Brazil. The species listed would really require a larger tank but I like the set-up and fish. Wonderful book, 8 different biotopes discussed. LFS guy recommended it.

I've got another question/observation that may seem a bit silly to catfish people but it seems that many photos etc show the fish in someone's hand etc. What's the deal with their breathing, must be something a bit different than your average guppy?

Thanks for your help, I'll call tomorrow about any USD cat availability and go from there. The store seems to keep good records of what was available when etc.
Cheers!

[Richard B]

Syno Lucipinnis do best in hard alkaline water as they originate from Lake Tanganyika, however many are now tank bred & adjust to more average aquarium conditions but they do prefer rockwork as the decor.

Syno contractus are about the most peaceful of any member of the Mochokids & are a fantastic fish to keep but are not nearly as frequently available as nigriventris (or Lucipnnis come to that)

[L number Banana]

Thanks RichardB,

Just spoke to the LFS people and it looks good for s.nigriventris. She said that they get almost all of their cats in September and will be getting those in particular. That will give me lots of time to get the tank into good shape before they arrive. I was also told that they only order fish that they would be sure to sell if they order about 50 or 60 The staff member I usually deal with told me about some cats that were ordered in that were $80 each so I guess I can only order a few of the fancier ones if the price is right. I didn't win any lotteries so I'll just have to go in with a list and hope for the best.

Thanks for the water tip about Syno Lucipinnis. I'll use the links/search to look at the other fish suitable for the same water. Maybe a biotope won't be out of the question? I'm sure I could still sneak my banana plants in as I won't be having any Congo or Buta specialists over for dinner. Would be handy though....

Cheers!

[MatsP]

Thanks for the water tip about Syno Lucipinnis. I'll use the links/search to look at the other fish suitable for the same water. Maybe a biotope won't be out of the question? I'm sure I could still sneak my banana plants in as I won't be having any Congo or Buta specialists over for dinner. Would be handy though....

Cheers!

You can (estimate) the hardness that the fish wants by using the advanced search in the Cat-eLog, and using the pH settings. Soft water in nature is below 7, hard water is above 7. So to find fish that are happy in soft water, search for (for example) 6-7 pH. To find fishes that prefer hard water, search for 7-8 pH.

You can of coruse combine this with all the other search options, e.g. the size, the family/genus, etc, etc.

--
Mats

[L number Banana]

Thanks Mats, I'll do that.
I just found all the articles: basics, water chem, oxy etc and printed them off. I'll be able to get a better handle on things with these. Then I suppose I'll be back with more questions...

You guys are really good for the hobby.

Cheers!

[Birger]

I've got another question/observation that may seem a bit silly to catfish people but it seems that many photos etc show the fish in someone's hand etc. What's the deal with their breathing, must be something a bit different than your average guppy?

I think most of the time this is done because otherwise they just take off and hide, it takes a lot of patience to get a good picture of a lot of these cats in a tank, and if the picture is taken quickly out of the water and the fish released back into the tank should be no harm done.

As far as using hands...many catfish, to keep it simple have spines and hooks that catch in nets, after destroying a few nets and possibly injuring a fish or two a person gets quite good at scooping them out by hand when you can. Keep in mind even those little syno's you are looking at can stick you and these "stings" can become quite uncomfortable to say the least. http://www.planetcatfish.com/faq/index. ... recent=yes

[L number Banana]

Thanks for the heads-up Birger! I was stung by a Great Lakes catfish when I was a teenager, right through the side of my thick leather workboots and the pain was evil. Effective for the fish though, I got out of the his water fast

I've been trying to come up with 'gardening', cleaning tools etc because the tank depth and my arm length don't match. I've sort of come up with a golf-ball snatcher used by older folks so they don't have to bend over or stick their hand into the water. I may be able to change the design a wee bit to make a fish scoop that would be less harmful to fish and fingers. PVC,stick and hatch. If I can get it safe enough, I'll post a pic. I have to make it work and not 'scary' first, it may look like either a nice cave or a big fishmouth!

Cheers