Pieces

[Jools]

Am I alone in gently disliking the fairly recent introduction into fishkeeping volcabulary of the term pieces? e.g. "That latest shipments had 10 pieces of the odd Bagarius sp.".

Jools

[RickE]

I don't think it's new in importation circles Jools, we were using it in the 80's (unless that's what you mean by 'fairly recent').

Perhaps with the shrinking of the world it's recently become more common in 'retail' circles.

I have no problem with it, I think it has widely understood meaning amongst imports and exporters.

What is your objection? That it is 'demeaning' to the fish in some way?

[Viktor Jarikov]

Many English areas remain confusing to me, for my shortcomings, of course. In Russian, people are counted by persons or souls, cattle and other agricultural animals by heads, and many other live things by "shtuka" (stress "u"), which means many things - item, thing, object, etc.

I've heard native English speakers refer to live things, like dogs, squirrels, and birds as a "he", or rarely a "she", and very rarely an "it", while logically, I'd assume "it" is the best.

The problem is probably convoluted by English being largely genderless language and Russian is heavily genderized.

To most people, I think fish is an "it". Even experts often cannot determine their sex So, pieces in the spirit of "items", or "shtukas", may be fine?

[Jools]

@RickE

I did not know it had been around so long, and I've been working with the trade since the 1990s. I felt it kind of came with the l-numbers in their hey-day but that may be coincidental. I've not found it in books either - but no reason to doubt you, you've been around this longer than me clearly.

What is your objection? That it is 'demeaning' to the fish in some way?

Objection might not be right, more that it just sticks a bit. Like seeing "8 items or less" at the supermarket. You're right though, it seems that pieces is a word that should be used for gold coins or pizza slices not live animals. Maybe also it's not very scientific, the term specimen or individual being what I would use. I guess it's better than units!

Maybe just me.

Jools

[MatsP]

I think what Jools is trying to say is that it should say "10 fish/specimens/individuals of Bagarius sp", as "pieces" is either indicating that they are not alive, or they are cut up for serving as a meal ("My bagarius is in ten pieces" - which isn't at all the same thing").

I also think this may be a "translation problem" (in some cases, at least), where the original language uses a "item-type" word which is perfectly correct - in Swedish, I would not object to someone saying "Jag tog emot 10 stycken Bagarius sp" [In English: "I received 10 pieces of Bagarius sp"]

("Stycken" is probably the very same word, in a different variant, as "shtuka" in Viktor's post).

Because languages work differently, a straight translation will not work well. This is a common problem when translating - if you do a good job, you are essentially rewriting the original text, conserving the original meaning, but re-arranging/re-forming the sentences to make it into the new language.

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Mats

[RickE]

("Stycken" is probably the very same word, in a different variant, as "shtuka" in Viktor's post).

Mats

And you can see were the German Stück might be related too. Perhaps this is were the use of the English 'piece' started.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Interesting.

I am more than sure the root/origin for the German, Swedish, and Russian word is the same.

I see your point too, Jools. It is almost a matter of grace in verbiage, if I may. We can all be formally correct in using words having several related meanings but to use them gracefully and still retain and convey the original, clear, logical train of thought is a very different skill, that perhaps only the best of writers and speakers boast...

[Birger]

I also think this may be a "translation problem" (in some cases, at least), where the original language uses a "item-type" word which is perfectly correct - in Swedish, I would not object to someone saying "Jag tog emot 10 stycken Bagarius sp" [In English: "I received 10 pieces of Bagarius sp"]

This is what I thought, in the forums I have noticed it is often used when the poster may have English as a second language or has used a translator.

Birger

[crkinney]

Some times I think that the English just don't speak English .
I would refer to them as ten fish.
mule

[MatsP]

Some times I think that the English just don't speak English .

And Americans do? ;)

More seriously tho', English is really quite a hodge-podge of a language, mainly with Saxon (Germanic) and Latin/French influences, and where Jools lives a few Scandinavian words thrown in for good measure.

By the way, in this thread, only RickE may be English - I don't know him personally, so can't say. I'm certainly not English, Jools is from Scotland and would probably be slightly offended if someone (who should know better) called him English. Viktor lives in the US, but originally from Eastern Europe. Birger lives in Canada...

We all use (nearly) the same language, however...

I would refer to them as ten fish.
mule

Agreed.

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Mats

[RickE]

only RickE may be English

Yep, although I may decide to lay claim to being half Kernowek.

[Bas Pels]

("Stycken" is probably the very same word, in a different variant, as "shtuka" in Viktor's post).

Mats

And you can see were the German Stück might be related too. Perhaps this is were the use of the English 'piece' started.

In Dutch we use stuk - a fish '5 euros each' would sell for '5 euro per stuk'

The word 'stuk' does not - as piece does - nessecarily refer to non living, or part of a whole - although 'my xx is broken' translates as 'mijn XX is stuk' so stuk CAN refer to broken as well

I think this just emplifies learning a new language implies learning another way to look at matters

[MatsP]

Yes, I could easily answer the "Hur många barn har du?" (How many children have you got?) with "Jag har två stycken" (I have two <items/pieces>) - which would be rude in English, but perfectly fine in Swedish.

[Google translate also says "Stycken" could be "Pieces", "Chunks" or "Paragraphs" (the latter is a different word - same spelling and pronunciation, but completely different meaning)].

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Mats

[Marc van Arc]

With words like this one, the hobby goes to pieces.

[matthewfaulkner]

I see it mainly used on Singapore forums. I don't mind it, but generally only use it on them, along with calling everyone 'bro'.

[mummymonkey]

I always assumed it was a direct translation by someone whose first language wasn't English. It's not as annoying as seeing TLAs used for fish though

[Iwona]

Sorry, my English is very poor, but I think that the problem is that in English piece means both a single thing (individual, specimen) or a fragment of a bigger thing (piece of cake). In Russian, as Viktor Jarikov said, "shtuka" means an object, but a fragment of this object would be "kusok". The same is in Polish.
Iwona

[Jools]

BTW, from a clever site, piece [Middle English pece, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *pettia, probably of Celtic origin.]

In thinking about it a little more, it's the growing use of it outside of wholesale that irks me. I think, because in the wholesale world it's a commodity, that's fine, but isn't it a bit more when it becomes a charge (pet)?

I am delighted to report I have yet to hear it said at a fish auction!

Jools

[RickE]

I think, because in the wholesale world it's a commodity, that's fine, but isn't it a bit more when it becomes a charge (pet)?

I think that's the distinction exactly Jools. As hobbyists they become pets and characters to us, whereas in the trade they are an item to be traded much like any other object.

[Jools]

Indeed, and it is the "scope creep" from one world into the other that jars a bit with me. When I worked in a shop we sometimes used to used the term "skulls"! But, in all the dealings with importers not the term pieces. I think it may have begun as a exporter term.

Interesting to know.

Jools

[apistomaster]

I think referring to fish numbers as "pieces" strikes native English speakers as fish as a commodity. Fish as a negative commodity is a bit alien to native English speakers.
When in Rome((Singapore) fish forum, www.aquaticquotient.com, I admit I have used the phrase because it is more customary term in SE Asian fish circles. I do not use the term elsewhere.

[coelacanth]

Pretty sure it's just due to the lingua franca vocabulary used in an international trade, where a literal translation doesn't quite work. The English-language hobby side of things also adopts stuff from other languages, often intact (e.g. aufwuchs, mattenfilter, gold saum).

[Marc van Arc]

Any chance it was derived from words like peces, pisces or peixes?

[MatsP]

Any chance it was derived from words like peces, pisces or peixes?

Possible, but I don't believe that. I think it is as explained above, in other languages there is a word that is perfectly correct/valid/neutral to "number of <type of object>" that doesn't infer whether it is a living or non-living object-type, and it's a "translate word for word" effort. And of course, they are probably just copying what they've read on someone else's list of species...

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Mats

[Shane]

I also think this may be a "translation problem" (in some cases, at least), where the original language uses a "item-type" word which is perfectly correct - in Swedish, I would not object to someone saying "Jag tog emot 10 stycken Bagarius sp" [In English: "I received 10 pieces of Bagarius sp"]

("Stycken" is probably the very same word, in a different variant, as "shtuka" in Viktor's post).

The English word with the same root as all these others is "stock." Du. stuk, Ger. Stück

So "10 stycken Bagarius sp" would literally translate as "10 Bagarius sp in stock" and not "10 pieces."

Not a knoock on Mats' translation abilities. I had to do some research to figure out what the root of stycken, shutka, stuk, etc was (stukkaz)and then what it evolved to in English.

The English word "pieces" is not related at all. It comes from a totally different lineage in English's family tree. Gaulish "pettia," Breton "pez."

-Shane

[Shane]

PS The one I would love to see explained is the whole Welsh/catfish connection. The Silures were a tribe that occupied southern Wales.

The latin-based word Siluriformes clearly came from Silures and (strange enough) the Germanic words have the same translation. Wels = catfish and Welsh.

So in this case two branches of English (Latin and Germanic) connect Welsh and catfish, but nobody seems to know why.

-Shane

[sidguppy]

even more odd; back in those deays when the Romans named the Briton tribes, as far as I know there were no catfish in Brittania at all.....the European Wels is a mainland species.

maybe the old Celts of that tribe had drooping moustaches and the Romans who were familiar with the European Wels (it's native in Italy!) named those people after the fish?

[excuzzzeme]

In the American retail trade, you will often find that the breakdown of a shipment is in items and pieces. Such as 10 pieces per item. It is used to indicate a sub-portion (Pieces) of a whole(Item).

An inventory would read "Item number 7, consisting of 3 bags of fish, each containing 10 pieces, . . ". In the American vernacular, item and pieces are used rather than actual names to alleviate any legal misunderstandings. Lawyers like to pick apart your identification of an item based on a proper name since it is possible for something to be misidentified. Misidentification can then be used to obfuscate the real issue.

Generic naming is preferred when an issue of stock order arises. Clarification of what those "items" and "pieces" can then be later defined.

[naturalart]

Jools wrote: "Indeed, and it is the "scope creep" from one world into the other that jars a bit with me. When I worked in a shop we sometimes used to used the term "skulls"! But, in all the dealings with importers not the term pieces. I think it may have begun as a exporter term".


You crept right up on it Jools. In a language there are "languages". In this case the merchant language, or word, being used in the tropicalfish hobbiest language. Merchants aren't as close to fish as us 'aquarist' so it is more of a thing to them. I as an aquarist, prefer fish or fishes.

I wonder what a fish farmer would choose?

[Viktor Jarikov]

I had to do some research to figure out what the root of stycken, shutka, stuk, etc was (stukkaz)and then what it evolved to in English.

Funny typo, Shane. Funny two-fold, as shutka means a joke in Russian. Shtuka's an item, etc. And, btw, this is another way strange things happen and lingo arises - from typos.