Which Synodontis?

[clydeboy]

We bought this guy a good 9 months ago, and these pics were taken around that time when he/she was a good bit smaller than now, around 7-8cm (around the 12cm mark now).
The fish was listed in the LFS as an upside down catfish.
Knowing what I know now, I thought we were getting a Nigriventris, which I soon realised wasn't the case.
This is probably a hybrid of some kind but I thought I'd ask.

cheers
Ian

[Silurus]

Synodontis waterloti

?

[clydeboy]

Synodontis waterloti

?

I had a look at the waterloti when I was trying to i.d it myself, and felt that the head of the Waterloti was more "blunt" if you get my meaning and it looks a bit longer and sleeker than "Max" does.
I'll try and get some pics tomorrow to give an up to date pic.

I'm hoping that he isn't just, as the wife would say "a potlicker" (mongrel).

To be honest.....I'm pleased she takes an interest..

[sidguppy]

this is one of those species that arrive as "nigrita" in the shop, but often are sold as "nigriventris".

it's not a hybrid, though.

[clydeboy]

this is one of those species that arrive as "nigrita" in the shop, but often are sold as "nigriventris".

it's not a hybrid, though.

Hi Sidguppy
When I was trying to id him I thought Nigrita was about the closest to what he looked like.
I put a pic on the photo section of the website a couple of weeks back and said I thought he was a nigrita but wasn't sure.
Brilliant fish too, very charismatic.
I have another in my other tank. "Paloma".
She was in a tank of mixed synos' in my LFS with a ticket on saying "large Synos £9.95" and she just looked different from the others, more "posh".
She's similar looking to nigreta but has faint paler edging to all of her fins.
She swims differently from my euptera as well.....When the euptera is "torpedo-ing" through the water he glides quickly and tucks in his fins but she doesn't, her caudal fins stay rigid and she looks sleeker at speed.
I'll try and get some pics of her today, but it will be a task as she is rapid and not the greatest poser that I have, which is a shame because she's lovely.

Ian

[clydeboy]

A strategically placed nugget did the trick.
I've convinced myself that she's a nigreta as well, although she has paler barbels and the paler edges to her fins.

[sidguppy]

now this one IS a hybrid.....

[clydeboy]

So what are the likely candidates for the mix then?
euptera x nigreta.
Can this happen?. I know there are very few bird species that will cross breed, is it more common in fish?

Ian

[MatsP]

It doesn't happen naturally, but if Czech (other nationalities are available) scientists with hormone injections force the fish to produce eggs/sperm and then mix this in a bowl, yes, you can get Synodontis cross bred.

--
Mats

[sidguppy]

at this moment the sad truth is that well over 50% of all synodontis in the trade are hybrids, especially in the general animal stores.
places like Pets palace outlets, Wallmarts, the big stores in mainland europe like Hornbach and the smaller LFS that are animal/pet-shops first with a smaller aquarium section.

I've seen too many of these that sell only hybrids these days......

only the more specialised live fish stores try to keep the hybrids out and only if they take care to do so.

the stores which stock genuine synodontis species are getting more rare every year.

the biggest scam is that the hybrids are almost always sold under the valid name of a genuine species.

there's a lot of money to be made, because with the exception of a few tanganyikan species almost all syno's are wildcaught juvenile fish.
these are much more costly than the numerous fabricated fry that are sold by the millions from former eastern Europe.

the big hybrid factories sell their stuff to the wholesalers and the wholesalers are in on the scam and label them with true speciesnames and resell them to the LFS with a huge margin.

[clydeboy]

Jeez
Never realised that the world of fish was so "dodgy".
I must admit though that I don't feel ripped off by my lfs though as the fish wasn't labelled as anything in particular, although I can understand that some folks would get done by unscrupulous dealers, especially newcomers to the hobby.
Thank goodness for websites like Planet Catfish.
My wife has offered to buy me a fancy pleco for my christmas and I think I'll be consulting you guys before parting with any money.
cheers
Ian

[Richard B]

with the exception of a few tanganyikan species almost all syno's are wildcaught juvenile fish

I'm not sure this is totally true.

I'm seeing many dealers with tanks of good numbers of very small genuine species like alberti, pleurops, decora, schoutedeni at reasonable money - for example £6-10 per fish.

I think these are being commercially bred (quite possibly by hormone injection methods) but they are not hybrids.

[clydeboy]

If it's easy enough to use the mixing bowl set up, then why don't these scientists/breeders use the real mccoy?
I would have thought that there would be more money to be made "culturing" the genuine article.
Then again, there is obviously a demand for fish like the "custard cats" mentioned in another thread which would kind of makes sense if people wanted them, but just mixing random species appears a bit "off".

Ian

Ian

[sidguppy]

If it's easy enough to use the mixing bowl set up, then why don't these scientists/breeders use the real mccoy?

arrogance, absence of ethics and greed.
lots and lots of greed

as in almost any nefarious practice it is again just a question of 'follow the money'.


there was a topic on this a few years ago that ended in a row; much of that was on me

because the guy in that topic (a Russian guy) was one of those creating hybrids
when asked when he didn't stick to keeping things pure, he answered and I quote: "because it was boring"

so out of greed and boredom he was perfectly able to make a mess of things.
now is that arrogance or isn't?
this person didn't have a shred of morality left. he was a fishy kind of Joseph Mengele. "because he can" he made a mess.

it's a miniature version of playing God and just messing things up bvecause one can.
it was a prime example of the sheer shallowness, courseness and depravity that some people have within their soul.

[Tappers]

I believe it all started when facilities that used to breed eels for the table turned their attention to ornamentals. Now, I in no way condone this but every commercial fish producer wants to produce an exclusive fish that takes the world by storm and this is where it starts getting dodgy, with breeders producing hybrids as after all, these are people who are breeding fish for money in a world where genuine species can be sourced elsewhere.

Looking at the numbers, it's more viable to use a female fish of a species such as euptera which has many eggs and then fertilise them with a multipunctata than it is to produce cuckoo spawners naturally and have only a handful of fry. Novelty also plays a part and unfortunately most of the customers who drive the worldwide trade in tropical fish don't generally care whether the undiluted and generally more desirable true species consequently disappear either.

I visited an Asian breeder recently who has taken the decision not to produce hybrids but unfortunately many of these fishes have already been sent from their country of origin before their true identity is known to the retailer buying them. In a way it has echoes of the old 'nigrita as nigriventris' problem.

There are people breeding straight species using hormones now but it needs the support of the fish-buying public to reward their efforts. In the meantime, hybrid synos will be as much a part of home tanks as hybrid livebearers, cichlids, rays etc. etc.