21st Century LFS

[Jools]

Aha, a hobby horse!

presentation/ambiance

This is where a lot of shops even with good stock fail in my view. Often it is too hot (which is OK in the UK most of the time), dark, dank and strewn with clutter but the big failure is noise. You will sell more if you can talk and hear your customers!

Totally agree re the model of trying to out chain store a chain store although, interestingly, Maidenhead Aquatics, have done it over here. They have stated policy against injected fishes and tankbusters etc. Hybrids are marked same. They don't carry things like Pangasius for example. I was impressed by their Scottish store not expecting much from it than decent marines, but the FW stuff good too. For such a big concern however, their online presence is, to be polite, a little behind.

I think it is perhaps because the pet chain stores in the UK have really aimed themselves at kids. The model is a bit different in the UK, we've only recently become a nation that doesn't worry too much about driving more than a couple of hours in a day.

At least in the UK, the first person that can break wholesalers by matching reliable online store (eBay is not the answer) with a top quality one we'd all like (and can) visit in the real world will nail it. It has to be out of town and near an international airport, but apart from that it could be anywhere.

Jools
PS The Colombians in Bogota have come closest to this model with export in the back and retail in the front.

[RickE]

At least in the UK, the first person that can break wholesalers by matching reliable online store (eBay is not the answer) with a top quality one we'd all like (and can) visit in the real world will nail it. It has to be out of town and near an international airport, but apart from that it could be anywhere.

I don't quite understand this sentence Jools. Wildwoods, for instance, seems to me to fit your description or am I missing the point?

[Jools]

No, not missing my point at all, I didn't expand for fear of going too far off topic. There are a lot of things I have in mind when I see how this should work. Wildwoods, as a physical store, could be nicer for the reasons I mention above, but that is applicable to pretty much every fish store. It is certainly better than many that appear ranked in the PFK fish store poll which is a total joke. Certainly I would say wildwoods are, or were, in the top level, say 10% The online offering is poor, the fish may well be great, but it's just eBay rebranded. The relationship between tropical fish finder, tropical fish 2 your door and wildwoods is confusing.

It is all reactive, static and dull listings. One could do so much more SELLING!

For example, where is the integration to leading info site data sheets, where is the "people who bought this fish also bought" feature, "you might also like" where is the ability to select fish by region, tank size and so on. A simple thought, imagine selecting a fish and being presented with some good choices of food for the fish to buy as well.

When, of all things, will people actually sell fish with the pictures of the actual fish. I appreciate many of the wildwoods photos are taken (by JJ) at the store, but many are years old. Stock photos are fine for bread and butter, neons for example, but if I'm about to splash out on a £300 shoal of Corydoras, they'd better be what I expect them to be!

How about a skype channel where you can arrange a time to go and see, live, the fish you want to buy? I mean, working in a shop, you get periods when its busy and everyone wants to buy and you can't SELL ( ) as much as you could if given the opportunity to really talk with a customer. Imagine a sales model where you can give your customers slots by appointment!

What I think I'm saying is no one that understands the customer base has applied technology and sales knowledge to a business proposition. All that exists at present are COTS (customisable off the shelf) open source shopping cart type solutions that just make every store look and behave like the next one.

Jools
PS Apologies for the rant, especially to Shane and his topic, but this kind of thing is what I do for a living and I find it frustrating no ones does it right for my hobby. If this has legs I will split this thread off into a new one.

[Shane]

Disclaimer, Jools and I have put a few pints to bed with this conversation over the years. If folks think we should split it into a "What makes a good aquarium store" type thread I am fine with that.

I think the Amazon.com type model Jools is a proponent of would be an awesome leap forward. "If you are buying F. vittata, pls check out or Rams too as they cohabitat in Venezuela," "On your last visit you bought F. vittata and rams, did you see our new Entomocorus?"

Why not a system where the aquarist enters tank size, temp, current stock, etc and the store recommends their top 10 compatible fish for your set up? There is no end to where such a "smart" system could go. Heck the whole thing could run on an Android or iPhone app. I have noticed that everything in the US, from my plastic cup at Taco Bell to items in Best Buy, can now be scanned with my phone for more information. Adding this as a feature available to aquarium stores would be a no-brainer.

Above said, the LFSes I have visited so far here are light years away from these types of models. I have not even seen one here that shows pictures of the fish like you would see in the UK.

-Shane

[Jools]

Taco Bell

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I miss Taco Bell, still only two in the UK.

Adding this as a feature available to aquarium stores would be a no-brainer.

The killer implementation of this, for me, (via a Quick Response code as they are called) is on the fish price labels on the tank. If I took a few days off work I am pretty sure I could get a fish label feature that would allow any LFS to print off labels with their prices on them and that would include a pic of the fish from the catelog, basic care requirements like size (something I see for example at Dobbies Garden Centres, well done chaps) and a QR code to allow instore linkage to the catelog page.

Jools

[racoll]

When, of all things, will people actually sell fish with the pictures of the actual fish.

How about a skype channel where you can arrange a time to go and see, live, the fish you want to buy?

Funny you mention this Jools, as I was going to post up something I spotted a while back that I thought was pretty cool.

Sweet Knowle Aquatics in Warwickshire are putting their stock up on YouTube. Now this is far from your fully integrated and automated system, but a step in the right direction. Do you not want to buy all those

Hemiodontichthys

now?

[MatsP]

Certainly, an online retailer that sell expensive fish should show photos of THE fish for sale (including in the for-sale posts on this forum, really!)

I saw some H. acipenserus at the local club recently - quite tempting at £13 each (around 4" SL). Need to get my tanks sorted first, but may end up with some...

--
Mats

[Jools]

Sweet Knowle Aquatics in Warwickshire are putting their stock up on YouTube. Now this is far from your fully integrated and automated system, but a step in the right direction. Do you not want to buy all those

Hemiodontichthys

now?

Yes, indeed, it's great to see. It's great to see the smaller or single shops innovating like this.

Did I mention geo-tagging where you find fish for sale?

Jools

[Neo]

Jool have you been to Riverside in Stirling recently?? what a shame, the store is not what it used to be when Keir owned it, not sure his other store is still on the go either, forgot where it was no real decent LFS's in central scotland that I have found yet

[Shane]

I think it is perhaps because the pet chain stores in the UK have really aimed themselves at kids. The model is a bit different in the UK, we've only recently become a nation that doesn't worry too much about driving more than a couple of hours in a day.

Comparing UK to US stores... Many of the UK stores I have visited with Jools offered more then one product specialty. Most were combination Aquarium stores and garden centers and one was a combination aquarium store/angling store. The stores were also, for the most part, very kid friendly. This model is rare in the States, but I think a very good business model. If we had aquarium store/garden centers here, I can say with certainty that my wife would not dread me stopping at a LFS.

What I want to see in the 21st century LFS (non-chain store)
1) Uncommon and rare fishes in good health. I can not believe how many stores are carrying the exact same stock as the chain store two blocks away. Also, I want to see these fishes in reasonable numbers. Carrying one L XXX or one nice Syno sp X is just a dumb idea as many buyers (like me) will walk away from the sale if they cant get a group all at once.
2) A good selection of plants and planted tank accessories. This would seem to be a common sense product line since planted tanks are too "advanced" for chain stores to pull off.
3) Displays that actually display. I have seen some incredibly horrible displays in LFS here. From tanks so packed with plants (hint DON'T sell plants and fish from the same tank!) that you could not see any fish in them to an entire store selling fishes over colored aquarium gravels. The best display I have seen since returning to the US was in a Pet Co chain store, this makes a mockery of the idea that there is more "wisdom" to be found in the LFS. Every tank at the Pet Co had natural-colored gravel and just enough stones/driftwood to make the fish comfortable but not block viewing. Also, do not display fishes that are not for sale. I hit one pet store where seemingly every other fish was marked "not for sale" because they were the owner's fish. It is a business, not an extension of the proprietor's fishroom.
4) Pay some attention to the store's environment, customer's certainly will.

I would love to see the 21st century digital store, but most US LFS I have visited have not even nailed down being a good 20th century store.

-Shane

[Jools]

Jool have you been to Riverside in Stirling recently?

No, their second store is near Livingston in a garden center and it is good. Nice range of dry goods but the stock suffers from what Shane mentions in terms of it just being the same as the chains except nice Corys from breeders. Also, a new Dobbies (with aquatics) has opened next door and has, at present, nicer fish.

You should try Aquascene, Airdie (got Seweilla, Sawamba, Scleromystax and super cool Florida sunfish & Corydoras bicolor from them), Outside Inside Aquatics, Haddington (Entomocorus, various Ls, Synodontis contractus, bunch of nice smaller fishes) and the Maidenhead Aquatics on the M8 at Coatbridge has great range of dry goods and nice fishes. For some odd reason I bought a bunch of very well priced horse faced loaches from them.

Jools

[Jools]

4) Pay some attention to the store's environment, customer's certainly will.

Totally, totally agree. Too many fishstores feel like (what I would imagine) dingy porn stores. It's just ugly - and also often messy, cluttered - becuase the cliente don't care and don't bring the family, significant other or often friends. It's why chain stores do better than they should in my view. There are quite a few shops I can think of that I wouldn't bring the kids.

"Sole trader syndrome" is also an issue. How often does your otherwise quite good LFS fail becuase, once you get a bit more familiar with the owner, that they just start going off on some tale or another that has the (often only lightly concealed) purpose of demonstrating they are right about what ever issue is bothering them and that everyone else on the planet is an idiot. It is a fish store, not a forum. I am a customer, not a chat show host. There is no I in team! Twice now I've found out about other fish stores I didn't know existed becuase the store owner assumed I knew about them and started slagging them off. As they both times were "the fish store next door" - I went to see. In one case I spent quite a lot of cash.

AND STUFF THAT IS NOT PRICED! (sorry, ranting) how on Gods beautiful earth do you expect to sell something without telling the potential buyer the price.

I also find that many LFS are missing a lounge bar.

Jools

[mummymonkey]

Some basic hygiene wouldn't go amiss either. Some shops stink.

[MatsP]

Tanks with no price/label (or very wrong) is one of my pet peeves.

--
Mats

[racoll]

3) Displays that actually display.

Spot on Shane! Talking about displays, what I can't understand is why so few fish stores are able to set up a decent show tank. I mean, seeing as they have all the equipment at their disposal, and any fish from their stock, why is it not possible?

I want to go into the store and be inspired (to spend cash) because they have showcased the results you can achieve if you purchase the right equipment or livestock. Want to sell plants and planted tank accessories, then create a planted tank. Want to sell powerheads, set up a river tank. But above all, make them look great! To often these "display" tanks are either hidden away, or just plain awful and neglected.

Why don't shops set up some small breeding projects in the store? Customers can learn and get ideas, but more importantly they could be walking out of the shop with a brineshrimp hatchery or a complete new setup.

[retro_gk]

Does it really make sense for a small-non chain store to invest in a snazzy web store? I am of the opinion this is something the chain stores can do, not smaller retailers.

In the USA, there are a number of small retailers who sell online and specialize in hard-to-find stuff (Frank Greco, Mark Denaro, John (snookn21) etc). They sell quality fish and provide great service. I don't think they're really set up to handle very large sales volumes and may not have the resources to handle queries from hundreds of new-to-the-hobby customers. Unless you have a good revenue stream going from sales of bread and butter fish, I don't see how selling a few dozen plecos or a few hundred tetras more a month justifies maintaining a high-tech web store. The mobile app space is a different kettle of fish, but I don't see a lot of serious fish keepers flashing smart phones.

As to the in-store experience, my top 5 stores; Ocean Aquarium in San Francisco (finding this store requires maps, a good GPS unit and a team of sniffer dogs), Clementi florist and aquarium in Singapore, and a couple of small stores in Milwaukee; all fall into the "crowded, poorly lit, unlabeled tanks full of (thriving) plants" category. What all of them also have in common are a fantastic stock of reasonably priced, healthy fish and knowledgeable staff. I've always ended up spending in the mid three figures (USD) on every visit to these stores. IMO, quality of stock and variety are far more important than wide aisles and dry floors.

a fish label feature that would allow any LFS to print off labels with their prices on them and that would include a pic of the fish from the catelog, basic care requirements like size and a QR code to allow instore linkage to the catelog page.

This seems to be rather heavily predicated on the store getting the fish ID right in the first place. Not the easiest thing, even with experienced fish keepers. Then again, you have the problem of the fish in a tank not resembling the corresponding picture(s) or looking like something else entirely. I've had this experience on a couple of occasions, where the staff at a store insisted the fish was species x because it most closely resembled the picture of species x in the books.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I miss Taco Bell, still only two in the UK.

Do you also miss the post Taco Hell toilet experience?

Spot on Shane! Talking about displays, what I can't understand is why so few fish stores are able to set up a decent show tank. I mean, seeing as they have all the equipment at their disposal, and any fish from their stock, why is it not possible?

A lot of stores do a pretty good job of this these days, even in my third world hick town. This is turning into a peeve of mine, because I'm starting to see stores with stunning display tanks and awful livestock do a lot of business simply on the strength of their display tanks.

[apistomaster]

I was concerned about the ambiance and customer comfort when I had a latter 20th century fish shop.
It was important to me that the show had adequate lighting over the tanks; enough to sufficiently illuminate the fish and the darkened fish display tank area.

I always thought a fresh, clean smelling shop and clean tanks was important and in our hot summer temperature I also invested a great deal in having a sufficiently sized central air conditioning/heating system which did keep the air fresh and the room temperature at a very comfortable temperature because people who can escape the heat of our scorching summers spent more time and more money.

Another important factor to me was to have the large and noisy central air blower for the tanks was completely isolated from the ambient sounds of the show room so we could converse with our customers without an incessant drone drowning out the relaxing sounds of the air driven filters most shops used to use back then. Many shops merely had their blower in a nearby storage room and were so loud one could hardly talk.

Back to the future, I have never been to the the The Wet Spot Tropical Fish retail shop but I have bought several orders from their retail on-line shop and it is clear they have taken time to sell fish which have been well acclimated. They run a separate wholesale business also.
But as one experienced in the various aspects of the tropical fish business I can tell when there are some competent and concerned people making the business decisions.
I had a similar concern for quality of the fish I sold well before the advent of the internet. I also made every effort to use more tanks with only one or a very few species of fish per tank which were always identified correctly per available contemporary information with the price plainly visible. I had a larger back room for quarantine and breeding than I had for my retail part of our building. Only a few people ever saw my back room; mainly customers who had traveled far to talk with me and see how I was keeping and breeding wild Discus. People interested enough to drive over 400 miles round trip for this purpose also tended to be big spenders and I sold a larger number of wild and my own tank raised Discus than even much larger shops in metropolitan areas which was rare circa 1970. Not many shops even attempted to have healthy wild Discus and at best you might only see a couple starving specimens. It makes a big difference when customers see tanks containing only one of the three species all in good condition and given enough tank space.

I think many of these concepts still distinguish which shops you will prefer to spend your money. Many shops in the USA have fewer tanks containing a few of many species and are serviced by middlemen "wholesalers" who mainly help the shop practice "Just in time inventory control" but such convenience to the shop owner comes at a much higher price and lower profits due to the high "wholesale" price they pay. I used to buy most fish in box lots from large importers/trans-shippers and essentially acted as my own wholesaler because I had such a number of tanks in my back room to hold and treat the fish as needed until they were disease free and that broke the cycle of disease recurring every time in my display tanks that I brought in new shipments. I could reduce my losses drastically and cut the unit prices I paid by 1/2 to 1/3 of intermediate middlemen so I could sell at competitive prices yet make money off fish. Many shops only consider their fish departments a necessary evil they must have to keep the hard ware and consumables and replacement sales high. The dry goods do not die.

[apistomaster]

Two out of three isn't bad; Frank Greco and John(snookn21) are quality source of on line fish.
The other one mentioned had sent me fish several times I really wanted but since I had problems and complained to him he has twice told my different assumed internet customer personae to go fly a kite and he would never sell to me again. Cross Mark D. once about his quality standards and DOA's and see what happens.

[apistomaster]

A lot of stores do a pretty good job of this these days, even in my third world hick town. This is turning into a peeve of mine, because I'm starting to see stores with stunning display tanks and awful livestock do a lot of business simply on the strength of their display tanks.

This is because they do not have any quarantine facilities and rely on "Just in time inventory" practices from high priced, intermediate level, "wholesalers" who not only replace what has been sold but what has been lost.
It takes physically separated quarantine facilities to always only have healthy fish for sale in their sales tanks. Notice how many of their tanks contain many species but only a few of each?

[Jools]

Does it really make sense for a small-non chain store to invest in a snazzy web store? I am of the opinion this is something the chain stores can do, not smaller retailers.

How small? I think the model I was proposing would be a small to medium sized retail floor space backed off to a larger warehouse. A snazzy COTS webstore will set you back $10 a month + effort. You'd also need a camera. Not a lot of investment. The growth / ROI against a market of, say, 5m is massive versus those that would drive to your store.

The thing that makes it hard to do is start up capital, it'd be easier to move from an established store to this model than fresh startup.

In the USA, there are a number of small retailers who sell online and specialize in hard-to-find stuff (Frank Greco, Mark Denaro, John (snookn21) etc). They sell quality fish and provide great service. I don't think they're really set up to handle very large sales volumes and may not have the resources to handle queries from hundreds of new-to-the-hobby customers.

Charge for the advice. Only give it out to in person callers. Write FAQs. Run a forum to provide self help within the community. Intergrate the business with the community.

Unless you have a good revenue stream going from sales of bread and butter fish, I don't see how selling a few dozen plecos or a few hundred tetras more a month justifies maintaining a high-tech web store. The mobile app space is a different kettle of fish, but I don't see a lot of serious fish keepers flashing smart phones.

OK, so revenue and profit are two different things. Increasing revenue delivers lower prices to your customer thus increasing competitive edge. You sell 100 neon tetras at 50c profit ($50 profit, but you can sell 1 pleco at $150 for $50 profit. The former will sell if you are cheap (can buy in bulk) and the latter will sell if you get the cool fish and know how to look after them. The latter is higher risk as you may have to keep that fish for a longer time before selling it. Internet presence means you lower that risk as someone wanting to buy it is likely to be found quicker.

Well, I think a lot of serious fish keepers will have smart phones (evidenced by our site access stats for example) however I think they'd more use them for keeping track of what stock is in place. The cost of a mobile app would be more than the intial business model would allow I think especially becuase it would be a constant cash drain to keep up-to-date.

a fish label feature that would allow any LFS to print off labels with their prices on them and that would include a pic of the fish from the catelog, basic care requirements like size and a QR code to allow instore linkage to the catelog page.

This seems to be rather heavily predicated on the store getting the fish ID right in the first place. Not the easiest thing, even with experienced fish keepers. Then again, you have the problem of the fish in a tank not resembling the corresponding picture(s) or looking like something else entirely. I've had this experience on a couple of occasions, where the staff at a store insisted the fish was species x because it most closely resembled the picture of species x in the books.

A lot of getting it wrong is becuase they use books that are older than me. Aren't they more likely to get it right when a picture of the species in question is on the label? There will always be folks who get it wrong, but I come back to my point again about integrating an online community with a business.

Jools

[apistomaster]

Many of the small on line dealers who sell rare and or expensive fish still have to carry bread and butter fish exactly as Jools described.
They have to to make any profit regardless of their gross.
Popular imports like Cardinal Tetras, to cite one example, are bought in box lots which may be 300 to 500 pieces depending on the size of the boxes. The gross mark up is about 1000%, But rare and expensive species never have such a high mark up. It may be as little as 100 to 150% of the list price they paid. Customers usually buy in the same way. Many inexpensive fish like 50 cardinals and a few other fish from the expensive groups. Everyone has to do more less this because of similar reasons. The freight on an order for a few fish is about the same as that for a larger number with a mix of inexpensive and high priced fish.
Many of these on line dealers are not big businesses but they often have a forum associated with their business web site or a Yahoo group to have that more personal contact with their customers. Maintaining a dialog helps make their businesses develop a personal relationships and customer loyalty just as a brick and mortar shop does. These smaller on line stores are often garage, basement or similarly small operations with limited walk in trade or pick up by appointment for local customers.
It is rare for a small specialty fish shops to also have an on line side to their business but a few whose names have been mentioned fill such a niche. And niches are where you find most on line fish businesses operating in. You normally need a very well established retail + wholesale business before it becomes worth setting up the third leg, on line business. Of course, there is a Poisson distribution curve which encompasses a large range of sizes and types of business models actually exists such that there are always some exceptional forms and many conventional forms of business models of fish shops out there. And from the very small to the very large.

There are naturally fewer shops who carry a very large selection of species. If you dig a bit you often find they are both selling fish at retail prices and acting as regional wholesalers to smaller actual fish and pet shops or fish and garden center shops or WHY.

[retro_gk]

Cross Mark D. once about his quality standards and DOA's and see what happens.

I first purchased fish from Mark around 2005-06, when he'd just started selling online, and his service was impeccable. His mailing list is still going strong, so I assumed he was still doing as well.

The growth / ROI against a market of, say, 5m is massive versus those that would drive to your store.

How many of those additional customers would bring in a significant repeat business? People don't buy fish/accessories like they do books and electronics. Unless these retailers specialised in different livestock niches, wouldn't one large, quality online retailer dominate, to the detriment of smaller stores? This would make a very nice case study for a business management student, methinks.

Charge for the advice. Only give it out to in person callers. Write FAQs. Run a forum to provide self help within the community. Intergrate the business with the community.

Good point. A couple of the people I mentioned (Frank and Mark) already do this. Frank's storefront (www.franksaquarium.com) does a fairly good job with pictures and descriptions and he has an associated forum. Mark runs a mailing list where he posts what is available and people with questions can get them answered by more experienced aquarists. However, both are web only stores. Would someone with a B&M store have the time for all this? Worry about servers and backups and people pissing each other off on the forum?

A lot of getting it wrong is becuase they use books that are older than me. Aren't they more likely to get it right when a picture of the species in question is on the label? There will always be folks who get it wrong, but I come back to my point again about integrating an online community with a business.

And here is an opportunity to be the change we wish to see. Perhaps create a simple QRC implementation and approach a couple of the more tech savvy stores to use it on a trial basis (should not cost them anything more than the use of a printer to print labels, and the time needed to stick it on the tanks). If the stores find it useful, you could make it a paid service.

An even better service would be one where the store clicks a good picture of a fish and the app figures out what it is, but that is probably a few years of effort down the line.

[Jools]

How many of those additional customers would bring in a significant repeat business?

Thats part of the point of the business model I am proposing. At present, IMHO, online stores generally have very low customer loyalty becuase its mostly about getting that $300 eheim filter at as low a price as possible. There is no value add. With what I'm proposing, there is. Some people think selling is the process of getting a customer what they want, what I'm more thinking of is getting the customer what they need. The latter will drive repeat business and organic growth. Fewer and fewer fishkeepers these days are isolated - they pass on the good experiences more now than ever.

People don't buy fish/accessories like they do books and electronics. Unless these retailers specialised in different livestock niches, wouldn't one large, quality online retailer dominate, to the detriment of smaller stores? This would make a very nice case study for a business management student, methinks.

Maybe. But all I want is a quality online retailer that does the whole thing. I would be interested in you expanding on the first sentence in the quote above. I had a think about it and I (personally) buy fish and to some degree accessories in about the same way as I do books, shopping (groceries in American) and electronics. That said, I'm probably atypical, so would be interested, as I say, in your wider thoughts on what the differences you see are.

Absolutely right re the case study - great idea!

Would someone with a B&M store have the time for all this? Worry about servers and backups and people pissing each other off on the forum?

I'm not sure what B&M is, sorry if I'm being dense. Servers and backups and all that jazz are managed services and are included in the $10/month above. Managing people on forums would be a major amount of effort I am sure. But then it's no different from the same annoying customer in real life when they walk in your door. You just have to set your stall out and keep on top of it. Fish at trade prices to a moderator or two ought to do it!

You raise a very good point about time. Again from a business perspective I see a lot of "one man band" or "mom & pop" type stores. Often they suffer from a retience to delegate. This limits growth. Also store assistants are often poorly selected. If it were me, I'd put capable and personable before knowledgable about fish. It is much easier for a capable and personable person to pick up the fish thing than it is the other way around. Let's call them type A and type B for future debate! Training is important too. I've worked in three LFS and only one gave me any training at all. Mind you, in all cases I just walked in (a much younger man) as a customer so often that I was soon catching my own fish and the conversation around working a couple of days at the weekend was easy to do.

A lot of getting it wrong is becuase they use books that are older than me. Aren't they more likely to get it right when a picture of the species in question is on the label? There will always be folks who get it wrong, but I come back to my point again about integrating an online community with a business.

And here is an opportunity to be the change we wish to see. Perhaps create a simple QRC implementation and approach a couple of the more tech savvy stores to use it on a trial basis (should not cost them anything more than the use of a printer to print labels, and the time needed to stick it on the tanks). If the stores find it useful, you could make it a paid service.

Spot on. I've already had this conversation with two stores and they were very keen indeed. There are companies out there who sell sheets for this purpose but it's really limited. I wouldn't charge for it, but use it for advertising. Or maybe have an advertising free paid version, but LFS don't seem to mind advertising - fish bags, for example, are often sponsored in a similar way.

On this, when I go to Tesco [insert your local supermarket here] and buy things I get a receipt that says "2 packs of tortillas, 12 pack of Guinness and a some salsa dip". How often do you see a receipt for 3 Bronze Corys, 10 Neon Tetras and a common pleco? So, very little inventory management going on (like none) and so zero analysis of buying trends and patterns.

BUT I've often thought that receipts like this would be great just for a lot of newer fishkeepers who actually forgot what they bought. Experts take it for granted, but walk into a store with a similar range of things you're not familiar with and see how you feel. It happens with me big garden stores, I am awash in greenery I know nothing about. That, or you have the fish tank labels to give away with the fishes upon request. How many LFS customers first question on their third visit to buy fish is something along the lines of "I want to buy more fish for the tank but I am not sure what I've got".

So, labels...

The issue, as you say, is about the pic not looking like the fish in the tank but it being the right ID. For example, what label do you have for a bronze cory when the fish for sale are albino corys.

An even better service would be one where the store clicks a good picture of a fish and the app figures out what it is, but that is probably a few years of effort down the line.

Google are already throwing a lot of cash at this in their google googles project which is pretty good at recognisiign text, landmarks, books, artwork, wine and company logos. This has a lot of so-called augmented reality uses (such as viewing a realtime translation of a road sign in a foreign language). However, they're on record as saying the absolute hardest thing to do are animals. I suspect we won't be seeing an app that can ID

Hypancistrus

anytime soon (unless it uses DNA....). Only kidding about the DNA, probably.

Jools

[Shane]

On this, when I go to Tesco [insert your local supermarket here] and buy things I get a receipt that says "2 packs of tortillas, 12 pack of Guinness and a some salsa dip". How often do you see a receipt for 3 Bronze Corys, 10 Neon Tetras and a common pleco? So, very little inventory management going on (like none) and so zero analysis of buying trends and patterns.

I suspect that, at least in some US Mom and Pop stores, this is done on purpose for tax (or should I say not paying tax) reasons.
-Shane

[PlecoCrazy]

On this, when I go to Tesco [insert your local supermarket here] and buy things I get a receipt that says "2 packs of tortillas, 12 pack of Guinness and a some salsa dip". How often do you see a receipt for 3 Bronze Corys, 10 Neon Tetras and a common pleco? So, very little inventory management going on (like none) and so zero analysis of buying trends and patterns.

I suspect that, at least in some US Mom and Pop stores, this is done on purpose for tax (or should I say not paying tax) reasons.
-Shane

I believe the main reason for this is simply because they are still using a cash register. You have 8 programmable departments so all they really keep track of is say saltwater fish is department 1 and is taxable, freshwater fish is department 2 and taxable, dry goods is department 3, tanks 4, etc..

When you run the report at the end of the night it tells you how much you sold in each department, total for cash/check/credit, and how much sales tax and sub and final totals. That is pretty much how they keep track of things.

[Taratron]

There is a pet store here in Phoenix that was touted as the best in the area, called The Ocean Floor. And if you don't notice the reeking tanks where the reptile section used to be, and the mess of that cordoned off area that has been that way for months, the store is somewhat okay. It is bigger than most box stores, has a koi stream where people can buy feed and feed the fish, which has to be a good moneymaker. But the prices are obscenely high and they sell dyed and painted fish, which turns away a lot of aquarists. It really is a shop for the impulse buy, or to kill an hour with a kid, but the place is dirtier and has an aura of a a pretty dirty sex shop. Hell, the Castle Megastore adult store is clean, well stocked, and you'd think you were in an upscale place with some special decor if you didn't know otherwise.

So after being bummed out about going there, I risked a drive across town to Pets Inc. When I first started shopping there they sold kittens and puppies, which I was not happy with, but they phased that out quickly. They do sell several small mammals but don't carry parrots or birds save for a few lovebirds rarely. The store is about the size of a standard box grocery store, and the reptiles section is clear and clean. You can't smell any rat or mouse urine. Can't even smell the crickets. And the fish section is huge, they can special order animals in, carry live foods like blackworms, and while they do carry a lot of the standard guppies and the like, they also have a lot of African rarities, tons of plecos, and best of all they like to buy from local breeders. They also have discount tanks, where people can turn in unwanted fish (that's where I picked up my Congo tetras for $3 each). They have room to improve, of course, I wish they'd update their web site, but the guys there know their stuff.

There are several small fish stores closer to me than PI, but nearly all of them have mislabelled fish, dark or dimly lit tanks, and the places stink. I'd rather drive 40 miles to a nice store than support one a few blocks away with poor setups.

That said, I do do business online because sometimes it is cheaper and the fish I want can be found there quicker. Some online guys are pretty nice and will help out no matter how many questions I have (I have a high pH here and I always want to check and see what the seller keeps their fish in) and others are curt or show no interest beyond the basic 'I'm selling things so pay up or shut up.' Those ones don't get business, no matter how nice the deal is.

[retro_gk]

People don't buy fish/accessories like they do books and electronics.

I would be interested in you expanding on the first sentence in the quote above.

a) Fish/accessory purchases are likely to be long term investments and therefore less likely to be influenced by spur of the moment buying. If I've bought 4 books, I might buy another one or two, especially if it get some price cuts. Not necessarily something I'd do with fish. Even though most of us are guilty of buying fish on a whim at one time or another, it may not be in the best interests of the fish.

b) Book/electronic goods choices can be more easily swayed by the opinions of others, because even if an item does not live up to expectations, I can just let it sit on a shelf, return it, gift it, throw it away or resell it. Not something that's easy to do with fish or accessories (other than fish food).

c) I also buy most of my books used and resell older electronic goods to finance new purchases.

I'm not sure what B&M is, sorry if I'm being dense.

Sorry, Brick & Mortar, a physical store customers can visit.

Servers and backups and all that jazz are managed services and are included in the $10/month above.

I think that's a bit on the low side. AFAIK, $10 month will get you some disk and database space and bandwidth on a shared server. If I was running a web based business, with a fairly active forum and several hundred hits per day on the store, I'd be looking at a VPS (relatively inexpensive) or dedicated host (expensive). Even if I went with a basic shared host, there'd still be regular back ups to take care of (bad idea to depend on the service provider for this) and the usual software updates and security patches. It only takes a few minutes a week to do this, but a lot of people find it tiresome.

a retience to delegate. store assistants are often poorly selected. Training is important too.

The holy trinity! Select the right people, train them well and delegate wisely. This should be hammered into every business owners brain. If you ask me, this is where most stores can really change for the better.

How many LFS customers first question on their third visit to buy fish is something along the lines of "I want to buy more fish for the tank but I am not sure what I've got".

A loyalty program, perhaps? Even if an itemized receipt is not provided (for reasons others have brought up), it'd be relatively simple for the store to maintain a record of what a customer has purchased. Would even help with targeted advertising, along the lines of what Shane suggested (you've purchased rams, how about some Entomocorus?). I think stores would do better business if they kept track of what people bought and called them up when new stuff came in, rather than wait for the customer to walk in.

google googles However, they're on record as saying the absolute hardest thing to do are animals.

Perhaps this should be a topic of its own, but I think fish would be one of the easier classes of animals to apply this technology to, as many (most?) diagnostic characters are visible in two dimensions and can be readily broken down into numerical values.

For example, if you were to stipulate the input to be an image taken against a light background, cropped to 100% (or closest possible) that fits any one of standard image dimensions without any resizing, the program could then apply a standard grid over the image (a fixed number of squares (say 100x100), with the size of squares varying as per size of image) and process the image with some sort of geometric or matrix analysis.

Having thought about this thread over the weekend (as India proudly held on to the spirit of cricket while letting everything else slip away), I came to the conclusion there are perhaps two main areas to consider. One is the actual store, and improvements therein; the 21st century store, so to speak, and the other is the concept of selling online; something like Aquabid for the 21st century. Using Amazon and Aquabid as starting points, I feel the future of online stores is perhaps in the hands of a third party entrepreneur, who acts as a content aggregator and provides an interface for sellers and buyers.

Rather than wait for individual stores to get their acts together, it might make more sense for a software developer to put together a web/mobile platform where sellers can upload information about their goods via a simple interface, and have it linked to fish databases. Sellers need not be restricted to stores, open it up to hobby breeders, as an alternative to ebay. The software could do the job of making suggestions to buyers (buy rams from breeder x, diamond tetras from store y and Entomocorus from wholesaler a) and even help sellers with packing and shipping fish. A dedicated pick up and drop off service could probably be arranged in the UK. Just tossing ideas about.

[Shane]

Having thought about this thread over the weekend (as India proudly held on to the spirit of cricket while letting everything else slip away), I came to the conclusion there are perhaps two main areas to consider. One is the actual store, and improvements therein; the 21st century store, so to speak, and the other is the concept of selling online; something like Aquabid for the 21st century.

I agree. Our split thread seems to have split again between what makes a good store and what could be some very useful technologies. There may be a very good argument that the 21st century fish store would be virtual, but I hope not as I still enjoy visiting fish stores and looking through all the tanks for that little gem that came in as a contaminant or that tank that contains something I have never seen or thought about keeping before.

By comparison, I have a Kindle and can by books virtually, but I still stop in at book stores because 1) it is a better shopping experience and 2) I am far more likely to come across something neat that I was not even looking for.

-Shane

[MatsP]

That's a really good point, Shane. I use Amazon to buy books that I _know_ I want, e.g. "I need a book about the Programming Language X", "I want a map of Peru" or "I need to get the latest by <some author>". Real "B&M" book shops are much better to find "I'd like a nice crime/thriller type book to read" - you can browse a whole range of books in a couple of minutes - no browsing and waiting for the page to load. If you see something you fancy, you can have a quick read of the back/inside cover and maybe even pick a page about 1/3 into the book to see what the language is like.

Likewise, I've walked into a fish-shop thinking "I'll get some <insert species here>" and then found myself looking at a completely different species and buying that. If you search the page for <species>, you won't find the "random species you didn't even know about".

--
Mats

[RickE]

I suppose there is also the concern that if it became usual practise for even less common species, online selling would reduce everything to the status of ' I decided that's what I want, now let's see who's got it cheapest'. Which I think is the way most people shop on the internet. And the answer is probably Amazon.