Thanks for posting the announcement.

You should know by now, if you are so knowlegeable , that much of museum material is stolen.

Are you talking about ichthyology collections or museums in general? Nowadays you need to present a valid permit before depositing specimens in a collection, so they are known to be of legal origin. "No ...

I do hope that if you feel the need, you two in bad humour will take your twaddle elsewhere, and not stay in order to offer further insults in an attempt to have the thread degenerate into a flame war, and have it closed.

As i said before raglanroad, please be completely unambiguous in what you are trying to get across. I have no idea of the points you are trying to make. It might make sense in your head, but not in anybody elses. You have offered not a whit of support for your bold assertion. You have no idea what ...

'Scuse me, David Suzuki is on the line. Says your caulking is old. Wait..there's more..get back to you later.I hope you've learned your lesson; we won't have to mention this again.

gotta go..Dr. Suzuki needs some help.

try to relax and not take everything so hard. it's causing you to hold ...

Yes. Creating a strawman argument and putting it in the other's mouth is not the way to go, IMO, if you would like to learn. How's that ?

easy for you to say after you reword them with your own oversimplifications and inaccuracies, and then leave them strewn about.
Yes it is easy for me to say, because I have no fricking clue what your point is, or even if you have one. Do you? I think perhaps that it's not that helpful to your ...

perhaps. here's one:

Museums function as warehouses and showrooms for illegally gained articles.
like this

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=57101

and their main treasures

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/article660929.ece

but they are fussy , they may not want a legally-gained article ...

Well, no, not IMO. Whether or not the captive is considered domesticated ( under any of several definitions) there may not even be ancestral forms of the domesticated form still extant. In fact, domesticated creatures should be investigated too, with "capture" locale possibly being irrelevant, but ...

Oh, you mean by having good connections for thieved articles ? Mind you, not all museums are built of it. http://www.greenpeace.org/international/press/releases/museum-built-from-amazon-destr

http://www.czeglediartlaw.ca/Documents/Crimes_Against_Culture_2.pdf
They have a "Crimes Against Culture ...

I think they mean vouchered by reps of "public institutions".The elite dinks have grasped de facto control over study efforts.

Or you find a different museum that has the right specimen, and ask them to lend it to you - or get a photo + sample sent over.

Or donate your specimen to another museum and then use that for your research!

--
Mats As Heiko and others have noted, many or most museums have mislabeled fish as ...

Yes, Mats. I did edit to say "possibly" depends on the insitutionary dink's desires.
You see, suppose I want to barcode Pterophyllum, and so must ascertain that for my barcoding of Pterophyllum, the correct holotype collection locale is used for my investigation....a trip to the museum shows they ...

The overwhelming majority (if not all) of modern studies in peer-reviewed journals are of excellent quality and more than adequately test the hypotheses proposed. Uhhhh... Majority, yes. racoll wrote that, though. I answered as you did.
Suddenly Barcoding is not on the hot seat, once we take a ...

this Cryptoheros situation described as something that gives reason for discounting any DNA work .

Without seeing the paper I can't comment. It may not even be a DNA barcoding study. The technique is relatively new (since 2003). that's all I could get out of them. wondering if Bas or Larry could ...

Which study is this? Have you got a reference? this Cryptoheros situation described as something that gives reason for discounting any DNA work .
And I was wondering if anyone had the explanation for the event, or why it shows failure of any DNA system of investigation. In central America, we used ...

What assertion?

this assertion

Suckermouth wrote:

raglanroad wrote:And what happens in case of a very very rare creature ? do you need one in a bottle in an institution in order to get a binomial ?

It's a rule that there must be a holotype for species descriptions after 1999, yes.

are the two states mutually exclusive ?

No, but stick to making points clear and pertinent, otherwise nobody will bother to contribute. I do not believe this has been evidenced, thus far.


But my question about the necessity of having a preserved specimen was answered to the affirmative ...

so, what the deal with Cryptoheros , Morphology, DNA and Barcoding.
Q/ any ideas of what mechanism is responsible for what was seen ? what that might be called ?
how is it an example of failure of anything , rather than failure of everything ?

MatsP wrote:Searching the Cat-eLog for "market" in the "type locality" shows several fish that are indeed from "____ Market ____".


Mats

Thanks for that, Mats. I think the relevance of my Trolly Questions is starting to sink in. I'm just exploring my preconceptions .

I'm struggling to understand some of the points you are trying to get across raglanroad, if indeed you are actually are trying to make some points, and not just troll the thread.

are the two states mutually exclusive ? Troll my own thread....good ideas

Author a Troll Thread...hmmmm...could be ...

could you be more clear about which points you would like expanded or cleaned up ? sorry, but I edited while you were posting, so it is a bit more explanatory now. I added this I'm pretty sure Svendl double-checked for "Tarzoo". You have to know the history of the particular namings, as well as the ...

They're wonderful people.

"Doing the best they can", sounds like there is some room to wiggle ! I like it when the they say "Just do the best you can".

The Sea Serpent hunters will be pleased to hear this.

bottle or no bottle, locale or no locale.

You make it sound like ichthyologists are a ...

Scientists unfamiliar with the fish they study, do buy the fish from the market and do scientific studies
Is it not also quite common that fishermen do not accurately reveal the true location of their fishing ?

raglanroad, unfortunately in the real world, researchers do the best they can given ...

In a bottle ? No specimens from the undead allowed ? Just the binomial, that's what we're after with BiGFoOt.
And what of those described before 1999, then ? No problemo ?
Well, it needs to be possible to go back and find it in the same condition [hopefully - there are quite a few examples of 200 ...

name it something good, like "pentasuzukiorum".

In a bottle ? No specimens from the undead allowed ? Just the binomial, that's what we're after with BiGFoOt.
And what of those described before 1999, then ? No problemo ?

And what happens in case of a very very rare creature ? do you need one in a bottle in an institution in order to get a binomial ?

is it indeed ok to use a "_______ market, Cambodia" for a location? Yeti skull puchased in market would do if it were written up in a scientific manner, I suppose.
Unfortunately, a comparable situation to this has occurred in the past:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

Science marches on ...

Axelrod could handle the job.